Medical Bill Doyle: Treating cancer with electric fields

[rhody]

TED Video: Treating cancer with electric fields

Surgery, chemotherapy and radiation are the best-known methods for treating cancer. At TEDMED, Bill Doyle presents a new approach, called Tumor Treating Fields, which uses electric fields to interrupt cancer cell division. Still in its infancy -- and approved for only certain types of cancer -- the treatment comes with one big benefit: quality of life.

I found it amazing that patients wearing the radio therapy patches were able to carry on with their daily lives and without the dangerous debilitating side effects associated with chemo and radiation. Pretty interesting watching cell division being interrupted ending with the cells destruction due to the cells integrity being compromised by the applied frequencies.

Rhody...

 

[Ygggdrasil]

At first, I was very skeptical and thought that this idea looks like complete non-sense, but after looking into it, it seems somewhat legit. Doyle's company, Novocure, has made a device based on this principle that has undergone clinical testing (http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT00916409) and has been FDA approved for treating brain cancer (http://www.webmd.com/cancer/brain-cancer/news/20110418/fda-approves-new-device-brain-tumor-treatment). Various studies of the principle (for example, http://dx.doi.org/10.1073/pnas.0702916104) have been published in peer-reviewed journals.

Despite all of this, I still don't see why this device works. Supposedly, it works by disrupting microtubules during cell division (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703303904575292691538647642.html has a quick summary). First, I don't fully understand how and why microtubules are specifically targeted by the treatment. Second, even if the electrical fields do selectively disrupt microtubules, I still don't see why the treatment works because microtubules have other important roles in non-dividing cells, especially in the brain. For example, microtubules help to transport materials in the cell, a task that is especially important in neurons which have very long, extended processes such as its axons and dendrites. Because of this, it seems like the brain would be the area where you would want to avoid most with a treatment that acts by disrupting microtubles. Yet somehow, the device seems safe and seems to work?

 

[Pythagorean]

For example, microtubules help to transport materials in the cell, a task that is especially important in neurons which have very long, extended processes such as its axons and dendrites.

But do those cells divide?

The device's electrical fields don't affect healthy brain cells, which don't divide, says Eilon Kirson, NovoCure's head of research and development.

 

[bobze]

At first, I was very skeptical and thought that this idea looks like complete non-sense, but after looking into it, it seems somewhat legit. Doyle's company, Novocure, has made a device based on this principle that has undergone clinical testing (http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT00916409) and has been FDA approved for treating brain cancer (http://www.webmd.com/cancer/brain-cancer/news/20110418/fda-approves-new-device-brain-tumor-treatment). Various studies of the principle (for example, http://dx.doi.org/10.1073/pnas.0702916104) have been published in peer-reviewed journals.

Despite all of this, I still don't see why this device works. Supposedly, it works by disrupting microtubules during cell division (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703303904575292691538647642.html has a quick summary). First, I don't fully understand how and why microtubules are specifically targeted by the treatment. Second, even if the electrical fields do selectively disrupt microtubules, I still don't see why the treatment works because microtubules have other important roles in non-dividing cells, especially in the brain. For example, microtubules help to transport materials in the cell, a task that is especially important in neurons which have very long, extended processes such as its axons and dendrites. Because of this, it seems like the brain would be the area where you would want to avoid most with a treatment that acts by disrupting microtubles. Yet somehow, the device seems safe and seems to work?

You can catch the full FDA application and approval http://www.fda.gov/downloads/AdvisoryCommittees/CommitteesMeetingMaterials/MedicalDevices/MedicalDevicesAdvisoryCommittee/NeurologicalDevicesPanel/UCM247168.pdf.

Its not intended as a first use device and only intended to be used after chemotheraputic and surgical avenues are exhausted. Considering that GBM (glioblastoma multiforme) has such a terrible 5 year survival rate--I'm not convinced the very small increases in life span are real. I don't have time to look through their studies at the moment though, but my bulls%&$ meter is spiking--FDA device approval is, quite frankly, poorly regulated--And everyone in clinical medicine knows it. There is almost no oversight on device efficacy as compared to pharmacological agents. We did an interesting dissection of the terrible approval for stint-placement in certain stroke types. Though the FDA had approved the actually stints (pre-big head to head trial mind you), when research actually got around to a head to head, they found there was a significant increase in mortality with stint placement.


Turns out, most "medical devices" get to circumvent going in a head to head trial with standard of care (SOC) procedures and protocols. Why? That's a damn good question. It probably has a lot to do with political lobby unfortunately--Medical device manufactures just aren't held to the same standards as pharmaceutical companies.

But do those cells divide?

No, regardless microtubule function is still very important in non-dividing neurons.

 

[Pythagorean]

No, regardless microtubule function is still very important in non-dividing neurons.

But the article gives me the impression that it only affects microtubules under division conditions. Is this wrong?

 

[Ygggdrasil]

@Pythagorean: My understanding is that the researchers claim that the device will disrupt the microtubules that form the mitotic spindle, preventing cancer cells from dividing. This is an established means of targeting cancer and drugs like taxol work in this way. If the therapy targets only the mitotic spindle, it would indeed not affect non-dividing cells. But what I do not understand is how the field could specifically target only the microtubules involved in forming the mitotic spindle. It sounds like the treatment would disrupt all microtubules and therefore affect non-dividing cells as well.

@bobze: Thanks for the info about FDA device approval. I was wondering how something like this could get approved.

 

[atyy]

Despite all of this, I still don't see why this device works. Supposedly, it works by disrupting microtubules during cell division (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703303904575292691538647642.html has a quick summary). First, I don't fully understand how and why microtubules are specifically targeted by the treatment. Second, even if the electrical fields do selectively disrupt microtubules, I still don't see why the treatment works because microtubules have other important roles in non-dividing cells, especially in the brain. For example, microtubules help to transport materials in the cell, a task that is especially important in neurons which have very long, extended processes such as its axons and dendrites. Because of this, it seems like the brain would be the area where you would want to avoid most with a treatment that acts by disrupting microtubles. Yet somehow, the device seems safe and seems to work?

I don't wish to defend the device, just to discuss this heuristic. Could it be that disruption of cell division is more sensitive, say it never recovers if you disrupt it during a crucial 5 minutes, whereas axonal transport is so slow that if you disrupt it for say half an hour, there's enough time for it to recover without damaging the cell?

Penrose must be keeping a close watch on a wonderful way of testing his theory

 

[bobze]

I don't wish to defend the device, just to discuss this heuristic. Could it be that disruption of cell division is more sensitive, say it never recovers if you disrupt it during a crucial 5 minutes, whereas axonal transport is so slow that if you disrupt it for say half an hour, there's enough time for it to recover without damaging the cell?

Penrose must be keeping a close watch on a wonderful way of testing his theory

Or it could simply be that the patients die too quickly to see significant side effects of non-dividing microtubule disruption.

Lets be honest, these are patients that are refractory to chemo treatments, are not good candidates for surgery and have an extremely, extremely aggressive cancer.

GBM is a grade 4+ glioblastoma. The median 5 year survival is 4%, even in patients who undergo surgical resection. Grade 5 and beyond has a 0% survival rate at 5 years out. The average survival rate from time of grade 4 diagnosis is something on the order of 11 months.

It generally presents in two ways clinically. In older people as lower grades which progress over 5 years to a grade 4 or in younger people as a grade 4.

IIRC (sorry I just glanced over the FDA paperwork) their target was prolongation of life at 1 year out. Possibly then, the patients simply die before any neurological sequelae arise.

Confounding the problem, this wasn't blinded. You can't blind a patient or their doctor when the patient is wearing an electrical device around their head. Ergo, was the very slight increase in life span a product of placebo? I don't know, I suspect it may be.

The medical community can't do a head to head with GBM chemos and placebo because of ethical conflicts, so all the placebo data was extrapolated from prior studies based on old and inefficacious chemotheraputics--Not current ones. Basically their bottom line on placebo control was "a guess".

Edit: To be honest, I don't know what kind of arguments you can make for quality of life either. We're talking of adding a month, maybe two to current standard of care (at least according to their research) for GBM patients at the a&*-end of a terminal illness. Can't say that would be a fun month or two. I've seen people dying of GBM, the last couple of months aren't pretty.

Edit2: I'm not saying that it isn't worth more research, or that they aren't possibly on to something. But, I think at this point we should remain rather skeptical of claims. And hailing this as "the next big thing" in cancer (brain) treatment is about as premature as a 18 year old on a hot date.

 

[atyy]

Or it could simply be that the patients die too quickly to see significant side effects of non-dividing microtubule disruption.

IIRC (sorry I just glanced over the FDA paperwork) their target was prolongation of life at 1 year out. Possibly then, the patients simply die before any neurological sequelae arise.

But what is the case for side-effects, or specifically neurological sequelae?

 

[bobze]

But what is the case for side-effects, or specifically neurological sequelae?

You mean the mechanism? It would be the devices intent of treatment: MT disruption.

Or do you mean what kind of side-effects could arise from MT disruption in mature neurons?
MTs are used to traffic all kinds of vesicular traffic around the neuron, such as getting non-synaptically produced neurotransmitters in place, etc. GoogleBing "neuronal trafficking and microtubules"--Then apply imagination liberally to disruption of those processes.

 

[Pythagorean]

It looks like they exploit the special geometry of cell division with the electric field alignment:

The first mode of action is manifested by interference with the proper formation of the mitotic spindle, whereas the second results in rapid disintegration of the dividing cells. Both effects, which are frequency dependent, are consistent with the computed directional forces exerted by these specific fields on charges and dipoles within the dividing cells.

Experimental Therapeutics, Molecular Targets, and Chemical Biology:
Disruption of Cancer Cell Replication by Alternating Electric Fields
Eilon D. Kirson, Zoya Gurvich, Rosa Schneiderman, Erez Dekel, Aviran Itzhaki, Yoram Wasserman, Rachel Schatzberger, and Yoram Palti
Cancer Res May 1, 2004 64:3288-3295; doi:10.1158/0008-5472.CAN-04-0083

http://cancerres.aacrjournals.org/content/64/9/3288.short

 

[rhody]

I respect all of you ygggdrasil, pythagorean, atty and bobze, having said that I was hoping that somehow, someday, someone would make the video like the one I found claiming the "discovery" of "Tumor Treating Fields" by the Israeli Dr Palty. There is precedent and a large body of verifiable evidence that destroying cancer cells was performed in a similar manner successfully in the 1930's by Royal Rife, made possible by his remarkable microscope, an invention that for the first time used polarized light passed through crystals that suppress all rays except for those in one possible plane see except from http://www.rife.org/newspaper/supermicro.jpg and link to others here:

http://img638.imageshack.us/img638/4324/microscope.jpg

Without this invention, his breakthroughs at the time early this century would not have been possible. No model or blueprints exist of his original invention exist today, just pictures and descriptions, news clippings, etc. I spent quite a few months long before finding PF digging as I like to do over interesting people like this. You are all highly educated, skeptical, and I respect that. Having said that, I encourage you to start with this link and verify that Rife did in fact create this awesome microscope, then came up with a way to treat certain bacteria and cancer cells with radio waves directly observing their destruction with it and highly inventive methods of capturing target cell destruction.

I found it frustrating that many today are in the "Rife" business to try to sell a bill of goods based on his creative genius. Having said that, if you look at just the facts (in the main link provided), you cannot ignore some of his amazing contributions. Check out this newspaper http://www.rife.org/newspaper/science.jpg from the link provided above (double click it to blow it up), it provides more detail than the picture I provided. I don't expect you to believe me. Prove it to yourselves.

You all know by now I am not a crank and do not easily believe things without proof. All that I ask is that you keep an open mind when reviewing, the deeper you go, the longer you take as the picture of Rife's early success and tragic end play out you may change your minds. In the end for me, it is not easy to dismiss Rife's work, although today largely destroyed and corrupted by those who seek to make money from his work, and those in the medical establishment who at first embraced then later discredited him. The evidence is there, judge for yourselves.

Let me finish by saying I am glad that Dr Palty's "discovery" is being given a serious look, FDA politics aside.

Rhody...

P.S. There are some broken links from the main link I posted here and there, but the body of them appear intact.

 

[bobze]

Rhody,

I like the enthusiasm, but there is something I want to point out that most lay-people to the field often don't get--Which is what makes the almost daily barrage of "miraculous cure for cancer just around the corner" claims possible.

Killing cancer cells in vitro (I'm a link) is small fish. "KILLS CANCER"!--so what? I can kill cancer cells all day long. To put it bluntly, killing cancer cells in vitro ultimately doesn't mean s***! I can take you into the lab, we can grow out lots of HeLa cells (cancerous cells) and I can literally show you hundreds of thousands, if not millions of things that will kill them. If it were that easy, cancer would have ceased to have been a problem ages ago--Rest assured though, its not that simple.

Because a in vitro system excludes the complexity and systems of the whole organism, you never know if what you are cooking up in the lab will work in the body. There are hundreds of potential problems and limitations and most things that work in vitro don't work in vivo (I'm a link). They could require unachievable serum concentrations, they could be extremely toxic to another cell type, they could be metabolized or modified so as to be ineffective, they could lack the ability to hone to the particular cell type you want, they could only be useful on a target in a different body compartment than you are capable of delivering it too, etc

So when you hear claims about someone "killing cancer" and what a "great thing it will be"--You should be skeptical, because (like I put bluntly above), it doesn't mean anything in and of itself for reduction in human morbidity and mortality because of cancer. It is only a small, very small, microscopic even, first step on the road of designing and producing a clinically useful anti-cancer agent.

 

[bobze]

Some reading pleasure on "Rife cures";

Last week David Gorski wrote a excellent post about why we have not yet cured cancer. It turns out, cancer is a category of many individual diseases that are very challenging to treat. We have made steady progress, and many people with cancer can now be cured – but we have not discovered the one cure for all cancer. I personally am not convinced that we will discover a single cure for all cancer, at least not with any extrapolation of current technology. But if we continue to make progress as we are cancer will become an increasingly treatable and even curable type of disease.

This topic also brings up a meme that has been around for a long time – the notion that scientists have already cured cancer but the cure is being suppressed by the powers that be, to protect cancer as a source of income. In the comments to David’s article, Zuvrick writes:

So we can find a cure. It has probably happened multiple times. But nobody wants to cure cancer. Too many researchers earn a living seeking a cure by remaining inside a narrow, restricted channel of dogma. Their institutions get grant money and survive from the funding. Big Pharma makes big bucks selling chemotherapy drugs, surgeons remove tumors and various radiation devices employ radiologists and firms making these machines. MRI and CT scans would not be needed for cancer if Rife technology were available today.​

I have heard or read some version of this claim since before I entered medical school. Superficially it may sound like profound wisdom (cynicism is a cheap way to sound wise) – but the idea collapses under the slightest bit of logical scrutiny.

First, as David thoroughly pointed out, the claim is implausible. Cancer is a complex set of diseases that defy sincere attempts at a cure. Those who promote the notion of the hidden cure often simultaneously promote wacky pseudoscientific treatments that they claim work – and Zuvrick is no exception. He believes that Royal Rife cured cancer 70 years ago. Rife was essentially a copycat of Albert Abrams who promoted his radio frequency devices. The concept is to use radio waves to alter the vibrations of cells in the body. This is pure nonsense. Here is a quick summary from Stephen Barret:

One of Abrams’s many imitators was Royal Raymond Rife (1888-1971), an American who claimed that cancer was caused by bacteria. During the 1920s, he claimed to have developed a powerful microscope that could detect living microbes by the color of auras emitted by their vibratory rates. His Rife Frequency Generator allegedly generates radio waves with precisely the same frequency, causing the offending bacteria to shatter in the same manner as a crystal glass breaks in response to the voice of an opera singer. The American Cancer Society has pointed out that although sound waves can produce vibrations that break glass, radio waves at the power level emitted a Rife generator do not have sufficient energy to destroy bacteria.​

But let’s explore the logic of the hidden cure a bit further. Given that cancer is such a complex set of diseases, there is a vast and evolving science exploring the causes and behavior of cancers. This research takes place in numerous labs around the world. A cure for cancer would likely emerge from a collaboration among many researchers, in different labs and institutions, and even in different countries. Even if one lab made a significant breakthrough, it would be the capstone on top of a large body of research that was available to the entire community (and in fact the public). It would be impossible to keep other researchers from replicating the final steps that lead to a cure.

Continue reading...

 

[rhody]

I have one question although complex, I am sure it will be vetted, is the technology of the day in the 1930's sufficient with Rife's insight and genius to be able to create a microscope as was claimed.

I have no agenda, am not a conspiracy theorist. Is the science behind Rife's microscope sound or not, and could it if were built as described have allowed him to view cells at the desired frequencies ?

Rhody...

 

[atyy]

@Rhody, I looked at some of the newpaper reports you linked to. I can't make head or tail of what was actually claimed.

The http://www.rife.org/newspaper/science.jpg you provide says the wavelength was 1/1000 of an inch ≈ 20 000 nm, which seems too large.

A light (400 nm -700 nm) microscope can resolve bacteria (>500 nm).
http://www.ruf.rice.edu/~bioslabs/methods/microscopy/microscopy.html
"The smallest bacteria can be observed and cell shape recognized at a mere 100x magnification. They are invisible in bright field microscopes, though. These pages will describe types of optics that are used to obtain contrast"

Superresolution techniques improve things quite a bit.
http://zhuang.harvard.edu/
"Developing super-resolution optical microscopy that allows cell and tissue imaging with nanoscopic scale resolution"
http://optics.org/indepth/2/3/2
"Specifically, Fitzpatrick and the group of Salk Assistant Professor Clodagh O’Shea have been looking at how a small adenoviral protein spatially reorganizes DNA within a cell’s nucleus so that genetic programs which guard the cell against viral and tumor replication can no longer be activated."

 

[Ygggdrasil]

I have one question although complex, I am sure it will be vetted, is the technology of the day in the 1930's sufficient with Rife's insight and genius to be able to create a microscope as was claimed.

There is precedent and a large body of verifiable evidence that destroying cancer cells was performed in a similar manner successfully in the 1930's by Royal Rife, made possible by his remarkable microscope, an invention that for the first time used polarized light passed through crystals that suppress all rays except for those in one possible plane see except from news article and link to others here:

Well, if as you said in an earlier post, Rife's microscope used a crystal to pass polarized light into a microscope, then yes, the technology did exist in the 1930s. In fact, it existed 100 years earlier. In 1829, Williams Nicol invented the Nicol prism, a crystal that can be used to generate polarized light (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicol_prism). Nicol prisms were commonly used in early implementations of polarized light microscopy.

However, Rife was certainly not, as you seem to be claiming, the first to invent a polarized light microscope. The first report of a polarized light microscope was circa 1834 (http://www.microscopyu.com/references/pdfs/Weaver_Amer_Lab_35-55-2003.pdf).

 

[bobze]

I have one question although complex, I am sure it will be vetted, is the technology of the day in the 1930's sufficient with Rife's insight and genius to be able to create a microscope as was claimed.

I have no agenda, am not a conspiracy theorist. Is the science behind Rife's microscope sound or not, and could it if were built as described have allowed him to view cells at the desired frequencies ?

Rhody...

The one article I briefly glanced over seemed to be claiming that his microscope "magnified objects up to 17,000 diameters"--Whatever that means.

The most powerful light microscopes today can do about 6,500x and resolve images down around 50 nanometers. Certainly the "articles" claim would be impressive then...but, even in the 30's electron microscopes existed with magnification prowess in the millions of times and resolving objects down in the picometers.

Whenever you hear someone on the internet use the word "frequency" followed by a claim; you should immediately put on your skeptical-helmet. It normally means your about to get a deluge of words--they don't really understand, and are hoping you really don't either.

Royal's "claims" seem to be liberally borrowed from prior wooists like Albert Abrams (see my previous reading)--And these still exist in many forms. Just had a lovely discussion with someone a couple of months ago on the net who's "frequency" machine did everything from curing cancer to HIV.

 

[atyy]

The medical community can't do a head to head with GBM chemos and placebo because of ethical conflicts, so all the placebo data was extrapolated from prior studies based on old and inefficacious chemotheraputics--Not current ones. Basically their bottom line on placebo control was "a guess".

Couldn't they have done one group with the device switched off?

It seems the basic claim is as good as chemo, but with fewer side effects. Or is it known that patients do markedly worse without chemo?

 

[bobze]

Couldn't they have done one group with the device switched off?

I don't know, you'd have to ask their IRB (institutional review board)--My guess is it would be a no go. You can't run placebo trials on GBM, since chemo apparently does help some withholding treatment for a placebo group would be unethical.

It seems the basic claim is as good as chemo, but with fewer side effects. Or is it known that patients do markedly worse without chemo?

These patients the device was tested on had already had conventional chemo. They are end-stage GBM patients either receiving more chemo or the device, I believe.

I honestly don't know that chemo helps that much in increasing life-expectancy. I mean yeah you get small, very small, increasing in life--but at what quality? As a personal aside, its probably one of those diseases that if I had, I'd forgo the chemo and get on with living. Like I pointed out even with surgical resection you are still talking about months to live most likely (% survival at 5 years out with surgery is something like 4%).

The problem is, its so invasive and aggressive and being glial based seems to give it a free pass to traverse the white matter tracts of the brain. In literally no time what started off as a right sided tumor can hop across the corpus callosum and open up on beach front property on the left side of the brain.

Remember I said patients typically present 2 ways? Either they are old and you find it at a lower grade (interestingly enough, you don't do any treatments really till it advances to grade III) and simply wait and watch...or they are young and present with a grade IV already--Normally by which time symptoms show up its already metastasized all over the brain.

 

[Pythagorean]

What about willful subjects that would forego chemotherapy for the device? Or is in unethical in the first place to give them (possible false) hope?

 

[atyy]

I don't know, you'd have to ask their IRB (institutional review board)--My guess is it would be a no go. You can't run placebo trials on GBM, since chemo apparently does help some withholding treatment for a placebo group would be unethical.

Well, I hope they have some system in place to collect data from the users of the device, since that's the real trial (even then, will they be able to figure out what's going on without an appropriate control group?)

 

[rhody]

I haven't had a chance to digest your comments or lively discussion. I will as time allows after work try to locate as much technical detail on Rife's microscope, to verify to the satisfaction of this intended audience. I don't want to get into treatments, etc... Here is a link on all of Rife's microscopes.

Here is a http://www.rifeforum.com/wiki/Rife_Timeline Rife's life for those who wish to view it.

This is my observation into the character of this man, he was brilliant, humble and kind beyond words to everyone who knew him. I often wonder if Rife's personality were more like Bill Gates or Steve Jobs who were driven and aggressive, if his inventions and experiments would have been as easily dismissed.

Rhody...

 

[rhody]

30's electron microscopes existed with magnification prowess in the millions of times and resolving objects down in the picometers.

Bobze,

What you said is true, you failed to mention that when en electron microscope is used on a living bacteria or virus it destroys it. Rife's microscope did not affect the specimen under study, a definite advantage, no ? It could be observed before, during and after treatment.

Rhody...

 

[atyy]

Can 10 nm resolution be obtained with visible light whose wavelength is 400-700 nm?

First, a note that magnification is not resolution. Resolution is more important than magnification.

Normal light microscopes have a resolution comparable to the wavelength of light.

It is possible by super-resolution techniques to go better than that.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20624966
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22194693

 

[rhody]

I found this http://www.rife.org/newspaper/science.jpg while going through all the links in my last post, as luck would have it, the second post from the bottom labeled, Science Tests new magnifier:

In it's present state of development the new microscope is reliably reported to have a visual magnifying power of 17,000 diameters, compared to 5000 diameters, said to be the limit of commercial instruments. Due to the fact that images borne to the eye by light waves measuring about one 50-1000ths of an inch in length, it has been supposed that no object considerably less than that would be seen by the human eye. By the use of quartz prisms, it is understood that Dr Rife has broken up the light waves, making it possible to bring impossibly small objects into view. Through the new microscope, according to estimates, an object measuring 1 100-1000ths of an inch in diameter would be magnified to be one sixth of an inch in diameter.

atty,

From your last link in your last post:

The answer is a comprehensive array of laser and electron-based microscopes, such as a Carl Zeiss Libra 120 PLUS energy-filtered transmission electron microscope (EF-TEM) with a $1.5 million price-tag.

This uses super resolution microscopy over coming the limitations of light itself, wait, where have I heard this before ? DNA organization can be observed during viral infection and cancer (think folding). Gene 53, the guardian of the genomes because it protects against mutation, when it is inactivated it stops the genome from uncontrolled division and growth, arresting cancer cells. Clodagh O'Shea (video in the link) describes this process using the engineered virus (gene 53 disabled), depending on loss for replication. One must stop to wonder though, what becomes of the engineered virus itself when all of the cancer cells are killed, where does it go, what does it do, wait quietly for more cancer ? What if it itself mutates itself to something not so helpful, what then ? She does not address these issues in the video.

This high tech marvel can now do with real time imaging and state of the art laser techniques what Dr Rife managed to do (crudely, without knowledge of DNA) (with no data recording or playback at full or any desired speed) for a mere pittance almost 90 years before with unprecedented (for the time) resolution and accuracy, through hard work, infinite patience and perseverance. Not to the degree of understanding we have today, but nonetheless, no less impressive to me.

Rife said before he passed http://www.rife.org/newspaper/Scientific-Genius.jpg:

The most important thing I ever did was build a microscope.

See last paragraph of the news link of his death.

Rhody...

 

[atyy]

Apparently she published it in Nature, and apparently there's a free version available http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20740008 .

 

[rhody]

Apparently she published it in Nature, and apparently there's a free version available http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20740008 .

Thanks, if you have read it in layman's terms does it say what I tried maybe unsuccessfully and at best very crudely to convey above ? If you have more questions for us to ponder, that would be great. I love mind blowing ideas, they get me going, they are beg for explanation that just appears beyond our reach. Science is great huh, lol.

Rhody...

P.S. Is transcription factor 53 and Gene 53 one in the same, or something different ? I got this from a quick scan of the paper summary.

 

[atyy]

Thanks, if you have read it in layman's terms

I hope you don't think I'm not a layman!

OK, now I've confused myself with the double negative! I am a layman!

 

[rhody]

I hope you don't think I'm not a layman!

OK, now I've confused myself with the double negative! I am a layman!

Thanks, if you have read it, in layman's terms

Amazing what a comma will do to clarify things, huh ?

Carry on Master Yoda, carry on...

Rhody...

 

[bobze]

Bobze,

What you said is true, you failed to mention that when en electron microscope is used on a living bacteria or virus it destroys it. Rife's microscope did not affect the specimen under study, a definite advantage, no ? It could be observed before, during and after treatment.

Rhody...

In deed. To see useful things in bacteria you have to kill them. We even do this in light microscopy--Those colorful cells didn't get colorful by themselves. First he put them on a slide, then we cook them, then we color them with toxic dyes. Bacterial cells lack "pigment"--So to say, as do the structures in them. Without dye there isn't much to see.

About the only thing useful to see in a light microscope of unstained specimens is the way something moves (does it tumble? dart? float?)--Aside from that looking at unstained specimens isn't really all that useful. I've looked at plenty of unstained bacterial cells, they are...unremarkable to say the least.

Is there any evidence to support Royal's claims that he was looking at live, unstained specimens and "extracting useful" things about them? Or does this door lead back to a middle of the century newspaper claim and just-so stories told on internet conspiracy websites, copied to other websites, copied to other websites and on into legend?

 

[bobze]

P.S. Is transcription factor 53 and Gene 53 one in the same, or something different ? I got this from a quick scan of the paper summary.

p53 is encoded by TP53.

 

[rhody]

Is there any evidence to support Royal's claims that he was looking at live, unstained specimens and "extracting useful" things about them?

I'm on it, will produce the best evidence, verifiable, I can find, it may take a bit though.

Rhody...

 

[atyy]

Thanks, if you have read it, in layman's terms

Amazing what a comma will do to clarify things, huh ?

Carry on Master Yoda, carry on...

Rhody...

I started a discussion in https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=574031 so as not distract from electrical treatments.

 

[rhody]

I'm on it, will produce the best evidence, verifiable, I can find, it may take a bit though.

Rhody...

This documentary part 4, (fast forward to 6:24) with clips of Rife's own voice, establishes what he believed to be a virus (any pathogenic organism that was one order smaller than a bacteria, too small to be seen). To Rife the viruses were the minute filterable forms of the much larger bacteria (6:55), the two organisms married in a pleomorphic relationship. Most researchers of the day considered pleomorphsm as fallacy.

At (8:25, after many failures with human breast cancer cells attempting to grow a culture from it in all kinds of media, he succeeded using Kendall's K medium, can only be seen under monochromatic light at an angle of twelve and three tenths degrees, he observed red/purple ovoid granules that are highly motile. He fulfilled Koch's postulates for a cancer causing micro organism. Fast forward to 14:23 footage from Rife's microscope, 11.78 Mhz the frequency that disabled the BX virus.

This is the Documentary 4 of 9 on Rife's Forgotten story. Does the voice, news clippings and video ring true to you ?

Rhody...

PS Here are links to Parts 1 - 9, I find it curious that the documentary was uploaded on March 30, 2011. I would have liked this summary documentary while I was searching to piece together the puzzle of Rife's life and achievements years and years ago, sadly, it wasn't available then. I watched them all.

Please look to dispute or find parts that are inflated, forged, are inconsistent, do not ring true. Notice the small number of hits on all of these almost a year later, not sure what to make of that. For me the most interesting parts were in videos 1 - 5 about his rise and discoveries.

I used to correspond to one of the narrators in the video, Jason Ringas, who was at time trying to assemble a verifiable, comprehensive history of Rife's inventions and achievements. It appears with the tapes discovered in 2000 and then incorporated into the videos that his organization succeeded. I sent him an email to thank him and his organization for their tireless efforts and a link to this post. We will see if he remembers me and responds through the organization at the top of the video.

Part 1
Part 2
Part 3
Part 4
Part 5
Part 6
Part 7
Part 8
Part 9

Rhody...

 

[rhody]

Wow, I blew Quality Assurance (QA) on the last post, huh, two Rhody signatures. I see there has been a fair amount of interest, any preliminary thoughts or suggestions for avenues of research to drill down to based on his testing methods, etc... I can think of a few, but was hoping there were others with their own thoughts. I promise I won't screw up my signature in this post, lol.

Rhody...

 

[atyy]

Here are my thoughts.

1a Can viruses be seen by optical microscopy? Yes, by superesolution techniques.
1b. Did Rife see viruses by optical microscopy? Possibly, but probably not.

2. Are viruses and bacteria morphologically different forms of the same organism? No.

3a. Can viruses cause cancer? http://www.who.int/vaccine_research/diseases/viral_cancers/en/index.html.
3b. Did Rife demonstrate that viruses cause cancer? Possibly, but probably not.

4a. Can the appropriate application of electromagnetic fields kill cells? Probably.
4b. Did Rife demonstrate that EM fields kill cells? Plausibly.
4c. Can EM fields be applied to kill cancer cells and spare normal cells? Plausibly, we await the results of Doyle's further work.

 

[rhody]

It appears with the tapes discovered in 2000 and then incorporated into the videos that his organization succeeded.

I wanted to make a correction, the tapes were discovered in 1999 and then after cleaning up the audio, splicing, etc... portions of them were incorporated into the documentary that is presented here. I have some commentary that will require verification soon. Glad to see that there are no glaring misrepresentations or bad science reporting evident here.

Rhody...

 

[rhody]

You knew I would be back to this, didn't you ? It is too important to ignore for too long, I spent considerable time with this please feel free to question and probe as you see fit, and I know you will, hehe...

I have done some digging into post #35 above. In particular the video #4 minutes 7:00 - 14:00. There are a few terms used so I will present background first.

To understand what Rife was thinking in his experiments you must first understand the size scales he was dealing with, virus's that Rife studied we very small, on the order of 20 - 300nm and have enormous structural diversity, a definition follows, wiki:

Virus particles (known as virions) consist of two or three parts: the genetic material made from either DNA or RNA, long molecules that carry genetic information; a protein coat that protects these genes; and in some cases an envelope of lipids that surrounds the protein coat when they are outside a cell. The shapes of viruses range from simple helical and icosahedral forms to more complex structures. The average virus is about one one-hundredth the size of the average bacterium. Most viruses are too small to be seen directly with a light microscope.

Viruses as a species have enormous diversity, than any other, and it is claimed that only a small percentage of the millions of species have been studied in detail. Again from the same wiki above:

An enormous variety of genomic structures can be seen among viral species; as a group, they contain more structural genomic diversity than plants, animals, archaea, or bacteria. There are millions of different types of viruses,[4] although only about 5,000 of them have been described in detail.[3] A virus has either DNA or RNA genes and is called a DNA virus or a RNA virus, respectively. The vast majority of viruses have RNA genomes. Plant viruses tend to have single-stranded RNA genomes and bacteriophages tend to have double-stranded DNA genomes.

Next, to understand Rife's thinking during his experiments you must wrap your mind around the concept of pleomorphism:

in microbiology, is the ability of some bacteria to alter their shape or size in response to environmental conditions. Pleiomorphism has been observed in some members of the Deinococcaceae family.[1] The modern definition of pleomorphism in the context of bacteriology is based on variation of size or shape of the cell, rather than a change of shape as previously believed.

In the first decades of the 20th century, the term "pleomorphism" was used to refer to the idea that bacteria changed shape dramatically or existed in a number of extreme morphological forms. This claim was controversial among microbiologists of the time, and split them into two schools: the monomorphists, who opposed the claim, and the pleomorphists (such as Antoine Béchamp, Günther Enderlein and Albert Calmette).[2]

Monomorphic theory, supported by Louis Pasteur, Rudolf Virchow, Ferdinand Cohn, and Robert Koch, emerged to become the dominant paradigm in modern medical science: it is now almost universally accepted that each bacterial cell is derived from a previously existing cell of practically the same size and shape. However it has recently been shown that certain bacteria are capable of dramatically changing shape, for example Helicobacter pylori exists as both a helix-shaped form (classified as a curved rod) and a coccoid form.

To Rife, viruses were the minute filterable forms of the much larger bacteria (see 6:55 in the video), pleomorphic bacterial transformational model. He believed this because his microscope allowed him to view bacteria with subcomponents only visible through his prism refracting microscope. No one else was able to do this at the time to confirm because they did not have access to it. To conventional biologists at the time, viruses and bacteria are NOT related. Today it is believed it is impossible to cultivate a cancer virus out of an artificial culture medium. Rife claimed this was false in 1932.

Now for Koch's Postulates, one of the tenants of the results of the experiments that Rife conducted:

1. The microorganism must be found in abundance in all organisms suffering from the disease, but should not be found in healthy organisms.
2. The microorganism must be isolated from a diseased organism and grown in pure culture.
3. The cultured microorganism should cause disease when introduced into a healthy organism.
4. The microorganism must be re-isolated from the inoculated, diseased experimental host and identified as being identical to the original specific causative agent.

Rife was able to produce his "BX Virus" out of a human breast cancer tumor, cultured it in Dr Kendall's special K Medium (made from pig intestine), then injected the tumor and K medium into healthy mice, producing the disease, and then recovered the same microorganism from the mice, satisfying Koch's postulate.

We are not quite done yet, watch carefully the video from 9:45 - 12:50. You must watch this carefully, there are two more transitional states (BX -> BY -> fungal) to consider.

Rife used Dr Gruner's asparagus medium, a hard based medium to grow a fungus (with 14 stages from diseased blood obtained from Kendal's K medium. When Gruner's fungus was cultured on Kendall's K Media, the BX virus emerged. Image taken from: The Forgotten Story of Royal Raymond Rife - Documentary Part 4 of 9

http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/1895/mediumii.jpg

Rife's BX virus in Gruner's asparagus medium the BX virus changed into Gruner's fungus. Rife completed these transformational steps 104 times and was able to produce cancer in hundreds of healthy mice with the BX virus.

Rife then was able to take the BX virus culture it with Dr Gruner's asparagus medium and produce cryptomyces pleomorphia fungi, completing the cycle.

Image taken from: The Forgotten Story of Royal Raymond Rife - Documentary Part 4 of 9

http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/612/medium1v.jpg

Rife and Gruner believed that a microorganism is associated with cancer and it is by nature pleomorphc.

An personal observation, I think the father of radio frequency medicine for the treatment of cancer should be given a hard look, with the full weight of science thrown behind it, and the methods of Rife, Gruner and others who supported him be put through rigorous modern day experiments to verify or disprove Rife and others who supporting his work. I will breathe a great sigh of personal relief if and when that day does come, I believe it will eventually. There are many others I have corresponded with and read about over the years who believe it as well.

Rhody...

Supporting background and links:

Kendal's K Medium made from hog intestine:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC533442/pdf/jbacter00823-0003.pdf
unsuccessful attempts to reproduce Kendall's result 1932

CRYPTOMYCES PLEOMORPHA: A NEW ORGANISM ISOLATED FROM THE BLOOD OF A CASE OF METASTASIZED CARCINOMA OF THE BREAST *
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1560962/?page=1

http://www.rifedigital.com/rife-machine-24/
Success at reproducing a virus outside of a "live host"

One of the best quotes I have ever heard that sums up Rife's microscope: from link above.

"The light used with Dr. Rife's microscope is polarized, that is, it is passing through crystals that stop all rays except those vibrating in one particular plane. By means of a double reflecting prism built into the instrument, it is possible to turn this plane of vibration in any desired direction, controlling the illumination of the minute objects in the field very exactly."

Another quote:

"As I visualize the matter, your ingenious method of illumination with the intense monochromatic beam of light is of even greater importance than the enormously high magnification. . . ." Rosenow was right. The unique "color frequency" staining method was the great breakthrough. "

Rhody...

 

[bobze]

An personal observation, I think the father of radio frequency medicine for the treatment of cancer should be given a hard look, with the full weight of science thrown behind it, and the methods of Rife, Gruner and others who supported him be put through rigorous modern day experiments to verify or disprove Rife and others who supporting his work. I will breathe a great sigh of personal relief if and when that day does come, I believe it will eventually. There are many others I have corresponded with and read about over the years who believe it as well.
Rhody...

Rhody, Rife's claim were looked at by the scientific community at large--And found to be false. We have a much, much better understanding of cancer today then existed in Rife's times.

I also suspect that Rife's lab technique was probably quite shoddy and the different "fungi" and whatnot that magically appeared were contaminants--If they existed at all.

Rife was a conspiracy theorist, a crank and probably out to make an easy buck:

Rife's claims could not be independently replicated, [5] and were ultimately discredited by the medical profession in the 1950s. Rife blamed the scientific rejection of his claims on a conspiracy involving the American Medical Association (AMA), the Department of Public Health, and other elements of "organized medicine", which had "brainwashed" potential supporters of his devices.[6]

Interest in Rife's claims was revived in some alternative medical circles by the 1987 book "The Cancer Cure That Worked", which claimed that Rife had succeeded in curing cancer, but that his work was suppressed by a powerful conspiracy headed by the AMA.[7][5] After this book's publication, a variety of devices bearing Rife's name were marketed as cures for diverse diseases such as cancer and AIDS. An analysis by Electronics Australia found that a typical 'Rife device' consisted of a nine-volt battery, wiring, a switch, a timer and two short lengths of copper tubing, which delivered an "almost undetectable" current unlikely to penetrate the skin.[8] Several marketers of other 'Rife devices' have been convicted for health fraud, and in some cases cancer patients who used these devices as a replacement for medical therapy have died.[9] Rife devices are currently classified as a subset of radionics devices, which are generally viewed as pseudomedicine by mainstream experts.[5]

From the Wikipedia article on him.

The modern "Rife revival" is a product of the charlatans, frauds and snake-oil salesman that can be found predating upon people in tough situations--Hard medical problems. There is always an easy mark on the downtrodden and unfortunately all this "Rife" business is simply more of the same. Again from Wikipedia;

Interest in Rife was revived in the 1980s by author Barry Lynes, who wrote a book about Rife entitled "The Cancer Cure That Worked". The book claimed that Rife's 'beam ray' device could cure cancer, but that all mention of his discoveries was suppressed in the 1930s by a wide-ranging conspiracy headed by the American Medical Association. The American Cancer Society described Lynes' claims as implausible, noting that the book was written "in a style typical of conspiratorial theorists" and defied any independent verification.[5]

In response to this renewed interest, devices bearing Rife's name began to be produced and marketed in the 1980s. Such 'Rife devices' have figured prominently in a number of cases of health fraud in the U.S., typically centered around the uselessness of the devices and the grandiose claims with which they are marketed. In a 1996 case, the marketers of a 'Rife device' claiming to cure numerous diseases including cancer and AIDS were convicted of felony health fraud.[14] The sentencing judge described them as "target[ing] the most vulnerable people, including those suffering from terminal disease" and providing false hope.[15] In 2002 John Bryon Krueger, who operated the Royal Rife Research Society, was sentenced to 12 years in prison for his role in a murder and also received a concurrent 30-month sentence for illegally selling Rife devices. In 2009 a U.S. court convicted James Folsom of 26 felony counts for sale of the Rife devices sold as 'NatureTronics', 'AstroPulse', 'BioSolutions', 'Energy Wellness', and 'Global Wellness'. [16]

Several deaths have resulted from the use of Rife machines in place of standard medical treatment. In one case, a U.S. court found that the marketer of a Rife device had violated the law and that, as a result of her actions, a cancer patient had ceased chemotherapy and died.[17] In Australia, the use of Rife machines has been blamed for the deaths of cancer patients who might have been cured with conventional therapy.[8]

In 1994, the American Cancer Society reported that Rife machines were being sold in a "pyramid-like, multilevel marketing scheme". A key component in the marketing of Rife devices has been the claim, initially put forward by Rife himself, that the devices were being suppressed by an establishment conspiracy against cancer "cures".[5] Although 'Rife devices' are not registered by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration and have been linked to deaths among cancer sufferers, the Seattle Times reported that over 300 people attended the 2006 Rife International Health Conference in Seattle, where dozens of unregistered devices were sold.[9]

You can find more about the quackery and dishonest marketing of "Rifisms" at Quackwatch. Some articles that maybe of interest to you;

Some Notes on the American Academy of Quantum Medicine (AAQM)
Rife Machine Operator Sued