Can drag force and lift force be in the same direction here:

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the relationship between lift and drag forces acting on a particle in a fluid flow, specifically whether both forces can act in the same direction and how they are defined in relation to the motion of the particle. The scope includes theoretical considerations and conceptual clarifications regarding the definitions and orientations of these forces.

Discussion Character

  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that both lift and drag forces can have positive components in the Y-direction, suggesting a scenario where they act in the same direction.
  • Others argue that lift and drag are defined as perpendicular forces, but they can both have positive Y-components depending on the reference frame used.
  • A participant suggests that the drag force can be at an angle to the vertical direction, and questions whether it is appropriate to use the cosine of that angle in the equations of motion.
  • It is noted that the orientation of lift and drag forces depends on the chosen reference flow direction, which can lead to different interpretations of their components.
  • Another participant emphasizes that while it is conventional to resolve forces into lift and drag, it is not strictly necessary to do so, as forces can be resolved in any direction as long as the vector sum is maintained.
  • There is a mention of the distinction between aerodynamic definitions of lift in aeronautical engineering and more general uses of the term in everyday language.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the definitions and orientations of lift and drag forces, with no consensus reached on whether they can act in the same direction or how they should be resolved in equations of motion.

Contextual Notes

There are unresolved assumptions regarding the definitions of lift and drag, the reference frame for their orientation, and the implications of these definitions on the equations of motion presented.

Roul
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In the attached picture, can I say that there is a lift force in the Y-direction, and a drag force too in the same Y-direction?

FL proportional to V_fx2 ?

FD proportional to V_py2 ?

Is this equation of motion for the Y-direction correct here: ma = − mg − FD + V(rho)g + FL

The lift force is because of the horizontal flow which is in fact lifting the particle (lets assume there is some small velocity gradient around the particle, as the particle bottom experiences zero flow velocity and particle top experiences the flow velocity), and the drag force is due to the resistance to the particle's upward motion. Is this correct to say?

Please assume that the picture is correct, and such an observation was made.

Edit: Just added the image.
https://imgur.com/x099TgP

https://imgur.com/x099TgP

https://imgur.com/x099TgP
 
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Roul said:
can I say that there is a lift force in the Y-direction, and a drag force too in the same Y-direction?
Lift and drag are perpendicular to each other, but can both have a positive Y-component.
 
A.T. said:
Lift and drag are perpendicular to each other, but can both have a positive Y-component.

So the lift force will be in the Y-direction, but the drag force will be at an angle (say theta) to the vertical direction, in between the horizontal flow velocity and the vertical particle velocity. So in my equation can I use FL and FDcos(theta) and rest will be the same, right?
 
Roul said:
So the lift force will be in the Y-direction, but the drag force will be at an angle (say theta) to the vertical direction,
Lift and drag components are perpendicular to each other per definition. Their orientation depends on what you consider as the reference flow direction.
 
+1

Air flowing past an object exerts a force F acting on the object. You can resolve that force F into two components acting in any direction you want - provided the vector sum equals F. It's conventional to resolve it into two forces one acting perpendicular to the flow (lift) and one parallel to the flow (drag) but there is nothing that says you must do it that way.

For example consider a glider soaring in air flowing up a hill. You could define lift as the component acting perpendicular to the air flow or in a direction that opposes gravity. Depends what you are interested in.
 
In aeronautical engineering, lift is the aerodynamic force perpendicular to the relative wind, whereas in everyday vernacular, the term lift applies to any force that points up.
 

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