Can Legislation Prevent Leaders from Misleading Congress into War?

[Chi Meson]

Listening to the farewell speech, right now.



God, how I dislike that man.

 

[binzing]

Woo...now we just have to support his sorry *** till he dies.

 

[turbo]

Good riddance, W. What a sorry excuse for a human being.

 

[Chi Meson]

It seems that all of the non-disasters of the last 8 years is being summed up in 30 minutes.

nope, it took only 13 minutes.

What the hell was that? Can anyone be more uninspiring if they tried? Did anyone actually believe that Iraq and Afghanistan are functioning democracies? Blarrrrrrrrrrghhhh!

Lance the boil! Get the pus out!

 

[Cyrus]

I thought it was a nice speech. I was listening to the radio, so I only had audio. He's come a long way and delivered it quite well.

 

[signerror]

Good riddance.

 

[SticksandStones]

Good riddance, W. What a sorry excuse for a human being.

He's not a total failure, he would make a good poster-child for birth control or abortion.

 

[Hurkyl]

Is there a point to this? Or do people just want to spew hate?

 

[humanino]

It's so cold that even W did not blow a fuse.

 

[lisab]

Is there a point to this? Or do people just want to spew hate?

After these 8 years, don't you think we should be allowed to vent a bit? Just a little, maybe?

 

[humanino]

After these 8 years, don't you think we should be allowed to vent a bit? Just a little, maybe?

The rest of us still alive can indeed get up and say "we never really needed you W".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GiBxDk3dWYA

 

[russ_watters]

After these 8 years, don't you think we should be allowed to vent a bit? Just a little, maybe?

Yes, hate is ok, as long as it's pointed in the right direction.

 

[lisab]

Yes, hate is ok, as long as it's pointed in the right direction.

So, you don't think an emotional reaction toward those who govern us is justified. I'll remember that over the next 8 years .

 

[binzing]

Hurkyl aren't you from Canada? If yes, shut up, lol.

 

[russ_watters]

So, you don't think an emotional reaction toward those who govern us is justified.

Not that emotional, no.

I'll remember that over the next 8 years .

Please do. You'll never hear me talking that way about a President of the US.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Not that emotional, no.

Perhaps that how we ended up with someone like Bush - apathy.

 

[Cyrus]

Perhaps that how we ended up with someone like Bush - apathy.

I think the reason why we got him is because far too many people watch headline news, and don't seek good news. As a result, all they got was spoon fed 'they hate freedom' headlines. All they get is information at the surface.

 

[jostpuur]

Is there a point to this? Or do people just want to spew hate?

At least this makes arguments like "well if Bush is not liked, then where are the complaining people?" more difficult to use.

 

[turbo]

I think the reason why we got him is because far too many people watch headline news, and don't seek good news. As a result, all they got was spoon fed 'they hate freedom' headlines. All they get is information at the surface.

In the US, there IS no "good" news unless you can find some relatively unbiased cable-carried sources, since all broadcast news is filtered through the same corporate structures that build and maintain the military-industrial complex. You either get propaganda (major networks) or out-and-out right-wing indoctrination (FOX), with little else available. Try watching broadcast-only channels for a couple of weeks, and see if you can resist tearing your hair out when comparing what you see to international sources on the Internet.

 

[LowlyPion]

It seems even the revisionists don't have all that much stomach to defend this incompetent sidekick to special interests that has managed to mismanage and squander the burgeoning assets the nation was harvesting from increasing productivity at the outset of his term.

Cheney and Bush have been a total embarrassment with their manipulations and attempts to govern through deceit and distraction and all they have managed to do is bring unwise foreign adventure and economic ruin from unregulated greed that now sits on the shoulders of all those they were nominally supposed to shepherd.

Only 4 more days and that's been 8 years too long as it is as far as I'm concerned.

What I don't understand is how his approval rating is as high as 27%.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

What I don't understand is how his approval rating is as high as 27%.

I would bet that this number could be correlated to Fox News viewers and hate radio listeners.

My uncle still thinks Saddam attacked NY. He also informed me last week that Obama will not be inagaurated because he's not a citizen. "You will see", he said confidently and with great patriotism.

 

[russ_watters]

Perhaps that how we ended up with someone like Bush - apathy.

Or perhaps the democrats put up a couple of crappy candidates those two elections (heck, Gore was in almost exactly the same position as McCain and lost for very similar reasons). Certainly a lack of excitement is a big part of why McCain didn't win, but lack of excitement doesn't equate to apathy, it is more likely to equate to rationality. When people get too excited, they stop thinking and that is a very dangerous thing. I would much prefer that people make rational decisions. Making decisions based on emotion leads to bad outcomes. People do what feels right instead of what is right. Heck, isn't that one of the main criticisms people have of Bush? That he went after Hussein for a family vendetta. That he let his emotions cloud his judgement due to his emotional dislike for the person. And that's exactly what this thread is about!

But I'm unusual - marketing rarely has a positive impact on my buying habits but often has a negative impact. I hear an annoying commercial and make a mental note not to buy the product being advertised. I want substance, not flash. Obama has proven to have flash: now he'll have to prove he has substance.

 

[LowlyPion]

I want substance, not flash.

Your stance on Sarah Palin then?

Where was her beef?

Other than marketing, what was her purpose in the campaign?

 

[russ_watters]

Your stance on Sarah Palin then?

I'm not a fan - I wanted Christy Whitman. Substance over flash. However, analyzing it objectively, I get why he did it: to try to attrack people like Ivan and others in this thread who want flash.

 

[russ_watters]

Let me be more specific:

Good riddance, W. What a sorry excuse for a human being.

I didn't like Clinton as President and certainly wouldn't want him as a friend. I think he's morally deficient. I would not describe him as a "sorry excuse for a human being", he's just flawed. A lot of people are flawed. If I ever met him, I'd be respectful, though - I get the feeling, many people here would relish the chance to spit in Bush's face. It's juvenile, not to mention self-defeating.

Woo...now we just have to support his sorry *** till he dies.

And though I didn't like him and that he had the distinction of being impeached, I wouldn't suggest he doesn't deserve his pension. That's just silly.

He's not a total failure, he would make a good poster-child for birth control or abortion.

Very helpful.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Or perhaps the democrats put up a couple of crappy candidates those two elections (heck, Gore was in almost exactly the same position as McCain and lost for very similar reasons). Certainly a lack of excitement is a big part of why McCain didn't win, but lack of excitement doesn't equate to apathy, it is more likely to equate to rationality. When people get too excited, they stop thinking and that is a very dangerous thing. I would much prefer that people make rational decisions. Making decisions based on emotion leads to bad outcomes. People do what feels right instead of what is right. Heck, isn't that one of the main criticisms people have of Bush? That he went after Hussein for a family vendetta. That he let his emotions cloud his judgement due to his emotional dislike for the person. And that's exactly what this thread is about!

But I'm unusual - marketing rarely has a positive impact on my buying habits but often has a negative impact. I hear an annoying commercial and make a mental note not to buy the product being advertised. I want substance, not flash. Obama has proven to have flash: now he'll have to prove he has substance.

Outrage was an entirely appropriate response to the Bush admin. This is a result of rational thinking.

What precisely has been flashy about Obama? Do you consider coherent sentences to be flashy?

 

[russ_watters]

Outrage was entirely an appropriate response to the Bush admin. This is a result of rational thinking.

Rational outrage is an oxymoron, as is rational exuberance.

What precisely has been flashy about Obama? Do you consider coherent sentences flash?

If that was a joke, it was only a little funny.

If you're serious, though, perhaps you should tell me: were you more excited about this candidate than most others you've voted for?

Heck, Ivan - I'm pretty sure I've heard you lament about Gore not being exciting enough to win when he was running.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Rational outrage is an oxymoron, as is rational exuberance. If that was a joke, it was only a little funny.

It's really not that hard to understand. One leads to the other. There are times when outrage is entirely justified by the facts. The failure to understand this was the great failing of the voting public in 2004; and it still is for some.

If you're serious, though, perhaps you should tell me: were you more excited about this candidate than most others you've voted for?

You made an allegation; support it with evidence.

I was excited about Obama because I listened to him speak for many hours. He is clearly the most talented, and probably the most intelligent candidate I have ever seen.

 

[russ_watters]

You made an allegation; support it with evidence.

No, I didn't, Ivan, you did:

Perhaps that how we ended up with someone like Bush - apathy.

apathy:
1. absence or suppression of passion, emotion, or excitement.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/apathy

If you want to be emotional, that's your prerogative, Ivan, but don't pretend you can have it both ways.

 

[turbo]

When Obama and Biden were asked questions by the press, the press got some pretty detailed (even policy-wonk level) answers. When McCain was asked questions, he fell back on status-quo (Bush Lite) answers, and when Palin was asked questions, she fell apart completely. Lately she has been accusing "Charlie" and "Katie" of sandbagging her, when they lobbed her very softball (nay, even T-ball set-up) questions. If giving detailed answers to policy questions is "flash", I think we need a lot more "flash" at the top.

Nobody is perfect. I expect Obama to be more intelligent, reasonable, and mature than "W", though that's setting the bar pretty low. Mobilizing the world's most powerful military to pursue a vendetta "excused" by lies is about as irresponsible as one can get. After all the death, destruction, and on-going suffering he caused, I don't see how he can possibly sleep at night, unless he is insane/delusional. His farewell press conference and prime-time speech were sickening in their lack of truth, substance, and personal responsibility. Truly, a man without a conscience.

 

[humanino]

Only 4 more days and that's been 8 years too long as it is as far as I'm concerned.

After W was re-elected, I was lucky enough to stumble upon a t-shirt with Munch's Schrei entitled 3 more years at Dulles airport. I love this t-shirt, because the painting had just been recovered (by now you've guessed it was in 2006), and I think this masterpiece is quite appropriate to the reaction I had when he was re-elected.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f4/The_Scream.jpg

 

[humanino]

Truly, a man without a conscience.

My deviant culture leads me to think that, with so little concern about human life, W does not deserve the title "man".

 

[turbo]

My deviant culture leads me to think that, with so little concern about human life, W does not deserve the title "man".

When I look back on Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Gonzales, et al, I have to compare them to Gollum. Single-minded, fixated, and amoral. My Precious...

 

[LowlyPion]

I was wondering if maybe this collegial discussion shouldn't be moved to Politics from General, as I think there may be a possibility that partisan rhetoric might emerge.

 

[turbo]

I was wondering if maybe this collegial discussion shouldn't be moved to Politics from General, as I think there may be a possibility that partisan rhetoric might emerge.

Not on my part, I can assure you. I am very conservative, and I usually vote split-tickets. My revulsion with the Bush administration lies entirely with their actions, and not with their putative party affiliation.

 

[LowlyPion]

Not on my part, I can assure you. I am very conservative, and I usually vote split-tickets. My revulsion with the Bush administration lies entirely with their actions, and not with their putative party affiliation.

Nor on my part either, being as reserved as I am already in expressing my opinion.

 

[Alfi]

Good bye and my only wish is I never have to listen to you mangle the English language any further.

Unless, after an investigation, you get asked to the Hague to defend yourself against war crime charges.

 

[NeoDevin]

No, I didn't, Ivan, you did: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/apathy

I can't help but notice that you neglected to include the second definition, the one that Ivan was clearly using in his post.

2. lack of interest in or concern for things that others find moving or exciting.

 

[Cyrus]

It's funny that I think 99.99% of you are wrong. In fact, dead wrong. I think these remarks that 'he has no regard for human life', etc are WAYYY off the mark.

I honestly think this is a case of ignorance. He thought he could do a lot of honest to goodness GOOD in the middle east by spreading democracy, even if that meant covering his ears to what he didn't want to hear by nay-sayers in the government. It was his lack of of willingness to listen and think things through *before* setting out on them (with good intentions) that got him into the mess. And not putting his VP in check, letting Chenney have TOO much clout in DC and doing far too much behind the scenes with Haliburton in Iraq - a total disgrace.

I would argue its CHENNEY NOT BUSH that is the real evil guy in the WH.

 

[turbo]

It's funny that I think 99.99% of you are wrong. In fact, dead wrong. I think these remarks that 'he has no regard for human life', etc are WAYYY off the mark.

W has no regard for human life, unless it happens to be a fetus - then he is "on the job". Once you are born, it's OK by him if you are subjected to cluster bombs, land mines, depleted uranium munitions, etc, especially if you are not a Christian.

I honestly think this is a case of ignorance. He thought he could do a lot of honest to goodness GOOD in the middle east by spreading democracy, even if that meant covering his ears to what he didn't want to hear by nay-sayers in the government. It was his lack of of willingness to listen and think things through *before* setting out on them (with good intentions) that got him into the mess. And not putting his VP in check, letting Chenney have TOO much clout in DC and doing far too much behind the scenes with Haliburton in Iraq - a total disgrace.

Bush is NOT spreading democracy in the ME. He is spreading death and destruction in the ME. The US is not in the business of promoting democracy around the world, as you would know if you followed the election of Hamas in Palestine. Democratically elected governments are attacked and toppled if they don't hew to the business interests running the US government. You are too young to remember the Contras, but I urge you to research how another US president claimed to be spreading "democracy" by stealing arms from the US military, funneling them through Israel and private arms dealers, selling them to Iran, and using the "returns" (they certainly were not profits) to finance an illegal war.

I would argue its CHENNEY NOT BUSH that is the real evil guy in the WH.

So this is how Bush is not evil? He is a good guy compared to Cheney? I'm a pretty nice guy compared to Jeffrey Dahmer, don't you think? Haven't killed any innocent kids for weeks, and rarely even snack on their remains. Come on. This kind of revisionism is sick. Evil is evil, no matter under what pretenses it is practiced, and no matter how many US flags are ranked in back of the perpetrators when they claim to be in the right.

 

[Chi Meson]

Since I opened this bag or worms, I thought I'd make myself clear that I do not personally think that W is "evil." I think that he is made of lower stuff. Not lower than me, but lower than the stuff of a president. HE did not get himself into Yale. He did not get himself into the Texas Nat'l guard. He did not get himself a dismal oil company, nor a baseball team, and he certainly did not put himself where he is now.

The stupid things he has said have embarrassed the hell out our nation. I don't just mean his voluminous "mistakes" in speaking either, I mean things like referring to the actions in the ME as a "Crusade." Like saying "Bring it on." Like "Good bye from the world's greatest polluter." These things that he has said, on behalf of representing our country, already fill several books.

THis is not about politics, it's about the person. A person who thinks it's proper to give the German head of state an impromptu and unwelcome shoulder massage. This person was an embarrassment.

In his good-bye speech, when he talked of "good and evil" in the world, I did not get angry because I thought he was the evil one, I got incensed by his belief that he considered himself able to determine between the two.

His constant "brain-freezes" during speeches and press conferences are good comedy, but they indicate an inability to think on the fly. If it is actually true that he was making the big decisions on a daily basis, then I do not believe that he was capable of ever holding "all the facts" in his head long enough to perform the proper analysis.

I'm sure that W always thought he had the best interests of the country in mind. It's the quality of that mind I am sick of.

 

[Cyrus]

W has no regard for human life, unless it happens to be a fetus - then he is "on the job". Once you are born, it's OK by him if you are subjected to cluster bombs, land mines, depleted uranium munitions, etc, especially if you are not a Christian.

Sorry turbo, but this doesn't fly. You are simply stating your opinion on what you think he thinks - it's pure speculation.

Bush is NOT spreading democracy in the ME. He is spreading death and destruction in the ME. The US is not in the business of promoting democracy around the world, as you would know if you followed the election of Hamas in Palestine. Democratically elected governments are attacked and toppled if they don't hew to the business interests running the US government. You are too young to remember the Contras, but I urge you to research how another US president claimed to be spreading "democracy" by stealing arms from the US military, funneling them through Israel and private arms dealers, selling them to Iran, and using the "returns" (they certainly were not profits) to finance an illegal war.

Again, this doesn't not have to do with what I said. I said he *Thinks* he is doing good.

So this is how Bush is not evil? He is a good guy compared to Cheney? I'm a pretty nice guy compared to Jeffrey Dahmer, don't you think? Haven't killed any innocent kids for weeks, and rarely even snack on their remains. Come on. This kind of revisionism is sick. Evil is evil, no matter under what pretenses it is practiced, and no matter how many US flags are ranked in back of the perpetrators when they claim to be in the right.

Bad things out of ignorance isn't "evil" -it's ignorance. Bad things with intention are evil. I argue Chenney had the intention to push for war more than Bush because Chenney had (and did) make a lot of money for halliburton.

 

[LowlyPion]

I do not personally think that W is "evil." I think that he is made of lower stuff.

I think that's pretty much the case. It's in his nature. And he has proven himself unqualified for the job. His career only seems to demonstrate that he is perfectly willing to use his daddy and deceit as shortcuts.

He wanted to be President, and his focus has sadly been on grasping and keeping power by whatever means, rather than doing the job of a President. Of being a leader of all the people at least some of the time, instead of a partner to special interests and ignorant ideology all of the time.

 

[OmCheeto]

I wasn't sure if I should start my own thread or just throw this tidbit in here as it is directly related to both G.W. and today.

3 days after the start of gulf war II, March 23rd, 2003, I stood back and noticed that the nation was a bit divided over what we had just started. I decided to write a pair of simple stories that were the best case and worst case scenarios possible. Little did I know that almost everything in both stories would come true.

I'd never meant to publish such a silly little pair of stories, but today it seems somewhat appropriate.

"[URL dual time line story.
A case study in future history.[/URL]

If anyone wants to take the stories seriously and criticize my naivety, don't bother, it's already been done.

http://home.europa.com/~garry/fh_response.html"

And yes, I didn't get the inauguration day right. Perhaps I was predicting this goodbye W thread.

 

[Chi Meson]

It's funny that I think 99.99% of you are wrong. In fact, dead wrong. I think these remarks that 'he has no regard for human life', etc are WAYYY off the mark.

Cyrus, did you not notice that you countered hyperbole with hyperbole? This statement above is saying that only one of 10,000 people in this thread has an opinion that is better than, say, "somewhat mistaken."

I honestly think this is a case of ignorance. He thought he could do a lot of honest to goodness GOOD in the middle east by spreading democracy, even if that meant covering his ears to what he didn't want to hear by nay-sayers in the government. It was his lack of of willingness to listen and think things through *before* setting out on them (with good intentions) that got him into the mess. And not putting his VP in check, letting Chenney have TOO much clout in DC and doing far too much behind the scenes with Haliburton in Iraq - a total disgrace.

I would argue its CHENNEY NOT BUSH that is the real evil guy in the WH.

Otherwise, I agree with you. Cheney, along with Addington, his Chief of staff, engineered the method by which they could not only get their minion into the WH, but managed to get themselves in the WH. On top of that, they found a loophole that allows the VP to be NOT answerable to the president. The proof was in the paycheck, Cheney was paid his salary by the Senate. The so-called liberal media just shrugged and let this one go.

 

[The Dagda]

Good riddance is all I can say.

 

[LennoxLewis]

Don't slam the door on your way out...
Certainly one of the worst presidents in recent times. Attacking Iraq was a huge mistake and a proven lie - no WMD ever was found. As for "spreading democracy", who does he think he is that he has the right to invade a country, kill 50.000 civilians to "spread democracy" ? How would he like it if his country was invaded to spread communism?

He's made enemies all over the world and i don't think there's a single country, or even non-American person that thinks higher of the USA now than he/she did during Clinton.

And if there's anything that spawns terrorism, then it's having people hate you. "The Bush doctrine" has done just that. As for Iraq, that country is simply too primitive to live quietly under democracy. So, all the bad stuff, and there will be plenty for the years to come, will be seen as America's fault, or Bush' fault. USA has a big valley to climb out of, though electing Obama is a good start.

 

[humanino]

Sorry turbo, but this doesn't fly. You are simply stating your opinion on what you think he thinks - it's pure speculation.

The speculation is that this body has a thinking brain. As Albert would have said, W merely needs a spinal cord.

 

[Red Rum]

The man himself admits that his biggest achievement in 8 years was getting reelected. Some patriot!

 

[The Dagda]

The man himself admits that his biggest achievement in 8 years was getting reelected. Some patriot!

His greatest achievement was nothing. And I mean literally nothing, his greatest achievement was convincing idiots to vote for an idiot, I can do that, I can't explain how or why but given the money the family and business connections I can wreck any country in the world.