- Cellphone Tower Radiation - tomorrow i must decide

[radiationman]

URGENT - Cellphone Tower Radiation - tomorrow i must decide

Hello

I recently rented a small appartment and I am a bit shocked by the discovery that there is a big cellphone tower only 75meters away from the appartment, with closest antennas 25meter above the ground. My appartment is on the ground floor!

I live in belgium so I guess that compared with other countries, the towers are quite low in radiation.

I know scientific studies say that cell towers are safe,
but if they are safe... why then are so many people screaming out how:
"since the mast was put close to their homes":
- many people in the street developed cancer
- many people in the street started getting headaches and CFS

in higher numbers than are considered normal?

if the towers are safe, why have so many doctors signed the "Freiburger Appeal"?

and last but not least,
how does cellphone tower radiation compare with the radiation that comes from Wifi Routers, and so on?

Is high frequency (cell tower) not more dangerous than low frequency (60hz - household)?

What about the Pulsing? Or other "undiscovered dangers" that could explain all the people who claim to have bad experience with cell towers?

 

[Jack21222]

I know scientific studies say that cell towers are safe,
but if they are safe... why then are so many people screaming out how:
"since the mast was put close to their homes":
- many people in the street developed cancer
- many people in the street started getting headaches and CFS

in higher numbers than are considered normal?

if the towers are safe, why have so many doctors signed the "Freiburger Appeal"?

Because people are great at fooling themselves. If you trust peoples opinions over scientific studies, that's your problem, not science's.

 

[ZapperZ]

You are not asking a physics question. You are asking a question about human emotion and sociology!

If I tell you that the physics and physiology of such interaction cannot show a cause-and-effect that can cause such cancer, would you still go on with this diatribe? Certainly some people do, but they also believe in ghosts, supernatural existence, healing bracelets, etc.. etc. None of these are issues of physics.

Zz.

 

[sophiecentaur]

Billions of people believe in Heaven and Hell, too but that doesn't mean that they exist.

It always amused me that everyone wanted a TV relay transmitter outside their house when they couldn't get TV reception from a main station. Similar frequencies and higher power levels yet no one said it made them feel poorly.

 

[Drakkith]

I think that people have a difficult time believing science when it comes to human biology and how things affect them. I remember many a study saying something is bad for you or something is good for you that later turned out to be false. There's so many "studies" out there that contradict another study, that for most people it's simply impossible to know what or who to believe. Along with that, there are plenty of people that are willing to say whatever they can to make a buck, such as all the diet plans out there. Hell, just look at all the "Health" foods out there that actually aren't any better for your or are worse than some other foods because of things they add or take out.

I will say that the effects of different things on the human body are hard to study. There are so many variables and unknowns that sometimes it's almost impossible to figure out the cause of something without an exhaustive long term accurate study.

Thats one reason why having a general understanding of many things is a benefit for me. I can see through a lot of the crap that people want you to believe.

 

[sophiecentaur]

Read Ben Goldacre's book "Bad Science".
It's very entertaining and has so many examples of general misunderstandings of 'the facts'.

 

[radiationman]

thank you for the answer. please answer the following questions,
it is very important for me.

how much do you estimate the radiation from cell tower at said distance,
would differ from the radiation that comes from a nearby wifi router for example?

i mean both in V/m and gauss

 

[turbo]

Here is what the American Cancer Society has to say about the "dangers" of radiation from cell towers.

http://www.cancer.org/Cancer/CancerCauses/OtherCarcinogens/AtHome/cellular-phone-towers

 

[russ_watters]

how much do you estimate the radiation from cell tower at said distance,
would differ from the radiation that comes from a nearby wifi router for example?

Both would be about equally negligible.

i mean both in V/m and gauss

Neither of those is a measure of radiation intensity.

But for wattage:

A cell tower puts out about 100 watts
A wifi antenna puts out about 1 watt
A TV or radio tower can put out as much as 500,000 watts

You can use simple geometry to calculate the intensity in a spherical pattern of a particular radius.

 

[Dr Lots-o'watts]

Is high frequency (cell tower) not more dangerous than low frequency (60hz - household)?

Could it be worse than holding an emitter right next to the brain?

 

[radiationman]

Both would be equally negligible. Neither of those is a measure of radiation intensity.

yes but still,
can you make an estimation?

a while back i read somewhere that wifi @ 5 meter would be 0,15V/m,
that is something i could live with.

but if a Cell Tower would radiate the whole appartment at for example 2,15V/m,
then i would find that a bit much.

what do you think?


answers are very much appreciated!

 

[russ_watters]

yes but still,
can you make an estimation?

I was editing my post so maybe you just missed what I added on intensity...

a while back i read somewhere that wifi @ 5 meter would be 0,15V/m,
that is something i could live with.

but if a Cell Tower would radiate the whole appartment at for example 2,15V/m,
then i would find that a bit much.

what do you think?

Those numbers are meaningless.

 

[radiationman]

Allright then I don't know what numbers or values i should use to try to understand radiation from wireless technology.

But could you please estimate...

how does the intensity of radiation compare,
coming from an active wifi or DECT antenna at approx. 3 to 5 meter distance...

and a cell tower at 75meter distance, antennae 25meter above ground.
appartment at ground level.

your answer would be very much appreciated.
means a lot to me.

 

[JaredJames]

radiationman, there is nothing to estimate.

Russ has already answered your question above.

From his numbers, a cell tower puts out 100W.

Why does PF still allow this nonsense?

 

[Drakkith]

Allright then I don't know what numbers or values i should use to try to understand radiation from wireless technology.

But could you please estimate...

how does the intensity of radiation compare,
coming from an active wifi or DECT antenna at approx. 3 to 5 meter distance...

and a cell tower at 75meter distance, antennae 25meter above ground.
appartment at ground level.

your answer would be very much appreciated.
means a lot to me.

After being shown that the radiation from the towers has never been linked to any increase in cancer or other diseases, do you still believe that it is dangerous?

 

[radiationman]

i might be mildly electrosensitive and i have heart arrhythmia,
for this reason i try to limit my exposure.

i am not planning to move out of the city into the jungle though,
so all i would really love to know is if radiation from the tower i described is higher, lower or about equal than say a wifi station at close distance?

aditionally, the fact i live so close to that tower, and i live at ground floor...
and the antennas are 25m high and have angles at between 5° and 10°,
doesn't that mean that i will have less radiation from that tower than if i would live 200 meters away from it?

it's not my intention to be a nuisance here...
if you could answer the two questions in THIS POST right here I would be very happy.

Thank you.

 

[JaredJames]

i might be mildly electrosensitive

Is that a real issue or something someone has made up? (Here's a clue: http://www.badscience.net/2007/07/essex-electrosensitivity-study-results/)

and i have heart arrhythmia,

So?

There is nothing showing these masts have any implications so far as that condition goes (well any condition).

so all i would really love to know is if radiation from the tower i described is higher, lower or about equal than say a wifi station at close distance?

You're worrying over, quite literally, nothing.

There is no evidence showing these masts cause illness / affect people.

aditionally, the fact i live so close to that tower,
and the antennas are high and have angles at between 5° and 10°,
doesn't that mean that i will have less radiation from that tower than if i would live 200 meters away from it?

This is just non-sense.

Why can you not accept that there is currently no evidence to give you a cause for concern. Any issues / worries are formulated by nothing more than your own psychosis.

 

[Drakkith]

I don't know enough to answer your question Radiationman, otherwise I would.

 

[Pengwuino]

Sure you will receive less radiation if you lived further away from the cell phone tower. As for a wifi vs. cell phone tower, unless the pole is going right through your living room, your most likely getting more radiation from your wifi router.

 

[ormondotvos]

Radiationman, you're being conned, fooled, lied to.

If you've got enough sense to come here, and serious people are willing to use their expertise to inform you, AND steer you to what SHOULD BE the best evidence you can get, why continue to ask the same questions. The answer is that you need to consult with a doctor in the field of psychology, who will inform you as to whether you need to stop worrying obsessively about trivial problems. You might be missing a lot of life worrying too much.

Electrosensitive is a word invented to sell ads.

 

[PhanthomJay]

Any issues / worries are formulated by nothing more than your own psychosis.

The answer is that you need to consult with a doctor in the field of psychology

This is untrue that the worries are psychological. The worries are based on widely circulated mis-information, similar to the postulated "Rays of Death' book written about links to childhood cancer from magnetic fields from high-current powerlines. Although years and years and years and millions and millions and millions of dollars of research was done on this, with no conclusive evidence, the worries by some still exist today, even though those fields peter out to insignificant levels about 75 meters from the wires. Unfortunately, anyone can make a claim based on poorly gathered data, and it often makes the news. Personally, I'd worry more about aesthetics than i would about health issues.

 

[JaredJames]

When I refer to psychosis, I am speaking about a separation from reality (as per part of its definitions). In that sense, it is correct.

The reality is there is no evidence showing a connection between the masts and illness. If you remain as paranoid as the OP clearly is, you are showing your opinion/belief is not based in reality.

Although I do admit I'm using it as more of a sarcastic remark than anything else.

 

[PhanthomJay]

The reality is there is no evidence showing a connection between the masts and illness. If you remain as paranoid as the OP clearly is, you are showing your opinion/belief is not based in reality.

Although I do admit I'm using it as more of a sarcastic remark than anything else.

I'm not paranoid at all about it, but as I mentioned, some others get confused when they hear some doctors saying one thing, and scientists saying something else. In spite of the scientific evidence against it, the mis-information does not, and will not, disappear quickly.

 

[Anticitizen]

Why does PF still allow this nonsense?

I would hope because it allows for the opportunity to educate the uninformed.

Otherwise people will only be allowed to ask questions to which to which the answers they already know :p

 

[eachus]

I'll chime in and say forget it. I know radio hams that have 100 watt hand-held radios that work in frequency bands near cellphones. They do lots of public service things with these radios, for example my brother-in-law is going to be helping with co-ordination at the Boston Marathon again this year.

That's 100 watts next to the brain. I've used 5 watt walkie-talkies with the same distance between the base of the antenna and my brain. No strange effects noted. Now the cell phone tower near your apartment will have a signal at least half a million times weaker than Dave's handheld. Forget it.

 

[russ_watters]

i am not planning to move out of the city into the jungle though,
so all i would really love to know is if radiation from the tower i described is higher, lower or about equal than say a wifi station at close distance?

I'm not going to feed your fear because I don't think there is anything to gain by seeing the result of a meaningful calculation, but in trying to calculate it yourself, you may learn some math...so have you tried to use geometry to calculate it like I suggested above? You can take the wattage and divide by the surface area of a cylinder of a radius and angle of your choosing...

 

[russ_watters]

This is untrue that the worries are psychological.

While we're not here for diagnosis, there must be a reason why some people are more succeptible to misinformation than others.

 

[JaredJames]

I'm not paranoid at all about it, but as I mentioned, some others get confused when they hear some doctors saying one thing, and scientists saying something else. In spite of the scientific evidence against it, the mis-information does not, and will not, disappear quickly.

Sorry, didn't mean you, when I said "if you remain as paranoid as the OP" I meant it as in "if a person remains as paranoid as the OP". I was on my phone and it was late.

I would hope because it allows for the opportunity to educate the uninformed.

Otherwise people will only be allowed to ask questions to which to which the answers they already know :p

I meant, there are countless discussion on PF about this subject (or similar) which have answered the question over and over. There is little purpose constantly having the same thread topic repeated, when it's easier to just hit 'search' and stop wasting peoples time.

While we're not here for diagnosis, there must be a reason why some people are more succeptible to misinformation than others.

Some people seem to bathe in it daily. I can never understand how some people can believe some tripe that's out there.

Regarding psychological issues, if you are mis-informed, fair enough the problem isn't you. However, if you are then given correct information from verifiable sources and you choose to ignore it, the problem only remains in your head.

Note, I'm not trying to diagnose anyone. Just pointing out my opinion on the matter.

 

[radiationman]

I have been able to delay my decision for 2 more days.

I can understand that issues like these have been brought up many times before,
and that you have started to become irritated by them.

Because no body has offered me the comparison i was looking for, i have not made my decision yet.
I know you guys are passionate about science and you have great faith in the scientific research that says it is not harmful.

my decision will still be based though on the comparison of the strength of the Electromagnetic field being put out from that tower...
at the height and distance from the appartment i talked about earlier.

i am convinced that some people can really feel electromagnetic fields.
if some people can feel it, then I'm not surprised they can cause headaches or other physical symptoms.

BUT, as you all say: the EMF's are everywhere.
If i see the EMF-field close to that tower is not significantly higher than anywhere else...

then i will have no problem to continue to live there.

------------------------------

So basically those antennas at 25m high,
my appartment at 70meters away, ground floor.

the electromagnetic field they produce,
how would it approximately compare with the EMF from:

DECT base station at 3 meters distance
an active wifi router at 3 meter distance?

maybe not just the V/m,
but perhaps also the "gauss" value?

If i could just have an approximate comparison, I can finally stop looking for an answer.
Thanks to who-ever wants to share their insight on the comparison I'm looking for.

 

[JaredJames]

I can understand that issues like these have been brought up many times before,
and that you have started to become irritated by them.

Well if you come here for advice and then blatantly ignore it, of course we're going to get irritated.

Because no body has offered me the comparison i was looking for, i have not made my decision yet.
I know you guys are passionate about science and you have great faith in the scientific research that says it is not harmful.

There is no other valid evidence showing it is harmful. There is nothing else to believe in aside from psuedoscience and pixies. If you choose this then that is up to you and it does not belong here.

my decision will still be based though on the comparison of the strength of the Electromagnetic field being put out from that tower...
at the height and distance from the appartment i talked about earlier.

Then your decision is based on meaningless and worthless numbers that inspire only to further your own beliefs and not to address the actual issue - they are not harmful.

i am convinced that some people can really feel electromagnetic fields.
if some people can feel it, then I'm not surprised they can cause headaches or other physical symptoms.

This is complete rubbish and only falls under psuedoscience, heck I provided you with a link to a study and you still ignore the evidence against it. If you wish to further this belief, feel free to do so elsewhere as it is not a mainstream and published phenomena that belongs on PF.

BUT, as you all say: the EMF's are everywhere.
If i see the EMF-field close to that tower is not significantly higher than anywhere else...

You've been given numbers that show it's roughly equivalent output of power as a 100W. Harmless.

So basically those antennas at 25m high,
my appartment at 70meters away, ground floor.

the electromagnetic field they produce,
how would it approximately compare with the EMF from:

DECT base station at 3 meters distance
an active wifi router at 3 meter distance?

maybe not just the V/m,
but perhaps also the "gauss" value?

If i could just have an approximate comparison, I can finally stop looking for an answer.
Thanks to who-ever wants to share their insight on the comparison I'm looking for.

V/m? You're still trying to use this despite what people have said?
Do you know what Gauss is? Do you realize what sort of magnetic field an MRI machine exposes you to in comparison and that MRI machines don't kill.

Providing your numbers, regardless of units, will just further your own beliefs based in nothing with scientific evidence to back it up.

PF only deals with mainstream science, if you want an answer concerning "feeling emf" and all that tripe please go elsewhere and get your answers.

You have been told exactly how dangerous it is, with citations provided. You have been told exactly how 'real' your electrosensitivity is, with citations. You have also had your heart condition mentioned.

So far, all the evidence and advice has told you just how safe it is. If you wish to get someone saying how dangerous it is I recommend you visit a few non-mainstream sites.

There is no point coming to a site for advice, being given a lot of good advice (with evidence to back it up) and then ignoring it purely because it doesn't agree with you. It's a waste of everyones time.

PF won't provide support for your ridiculous and unfounded fears in the same way we won't help people with over unity devices.

 

[ZapperZ]

I have been able to delay my decision for 2 more days.

I can understand that issues like these have been brought up many times before,
and that you have started to become irritated by them.

Because no body has offered me the comparison i was looking for, i have not made my decision yet.
I know you guys are passionate about science and you have great faith in the scientific research that says it is not harmful.

my decision will still be based though on the comparison of the strength of the Electromagnetic field being put out from that tower...
at the height and distance from the appartment i talked about earlier.

i am convinced that some people can really feel electromagnetic fields.
if some people can feel it, then I'm not surprised they can cause headaches or other physical symptoms.

BUT, as you all say: the EMF's are everywhere.
If i see the EMF-field close to that tower is not significantly higher than anywhere else...

then i will have no problem to continue to live there.

But then, you need to understand some established basic physics. In this one, Einstein won the Nobel Prize for. The "strength" of the field is quite irrelevant as far as the energy in these EM photons. We can clearly see this in the standard photoelectric effect. No matter how strong the field is (as in the variation of the amplitude), the form of ionization that has been known to cause mutation simply cannot happen at frequency below the threshold.

This is why, when people talk about the strength of the EM field (without any change to the EM frequency range), most of us scratches our head wondering why it would make a difference.

As for people who somehow claim to can feel EM field, there have been no such claim that can be verified. See here:

http://www.nature.com/news/2007/070723/full/news070723-8.html

So in fact, we have evidence to the contrary. As with the placebo effect, merely believing in something is enough to trigger a physiological response. But this is completely different than assigning a cause-and-effect to a particular trigger. This is what most of the public have a hard time in understanding - that correlation does NOT imply causation.

Zz.

 

[Pengwuino]

I know you guys are passionate about science and you have great faith in the scientific research that says it is not harmful.

This isn't a matter of faith. Many people here are practicing physicists and engineers. I would trust them.

By the way, humans radiate something like 100W of electromagnetic radiation. So be careful at large gatherings of people

 

[radiationman]

How many double blind studies on ES has been done?

If multiple studies give these same results, then I will believe ES is a myth.
If it's only that one study though, their testing method (THE EMF they produced)
might not have been the same kind of EMF like that which floats around in the "real world".

Has Prof. Jørgen Bach Andersen already published his result on the research done on ES?

 

[DaleSwanson]

First, as others have said V/m and "gauss" aren't the correct units. I think perhaps you are misremembering w/m² or watts per square meter. Second, power drops off at a rate governed by something called the inverse square law. That simply means as distance increases the power drops off faster and faster. It is simple to understand why. Imagine an antenna that puts out 1 watt. At 1 meter away that watt covers an area the size of a sphere with a radius of 1 meter. At 10 meters the same watt has to cover a much larger sphere with a radius of 10 meters. The total power covering the sphere at any distance remains constant, but the power absorbed by some object of constant size (e.g. a human body) goes down dramatically. This is the reason why a light looks dimmer as you get farther from it. By the way, visible light is electromagnetic radiation the same as radio waves or microwaves, just a different frequency. In fact, visible light is higher frequency (and thus higher energy). Radio < microwaves < infrared < visible < UV < X-ray < gamma.

Anyway, calculating how many watts per square meter is easy (and in case it's not obvious the people here want you to calculate it in the hopes of learning something). Simply find the surface area of a sphere with a radius equal to the distance from the antenna. Once you've found the surface area divide the power output of the antenna by the area to get the watts per square meter.

At 75 m horizontal and 25 m vertical you are about 80 m in a straight line from the antenna. Surface area of a sphere is 4 x pi x r². Russ has provided power outputs of 1 watt for a wifi router, and 100 watts for a cell phone antenna.

 

[radiationman]

This is two strange languages at the same time for me.
Mathematics and english. I have really tried to make sense of what you mean,
but can't figure it out!

Let's please get it over with, and give me the results... please .
And also needed: more links to double blind studies on ES :)