Challenging Stereotypes: The Struggle of Dating for Intellectuals

[Aero51]

Its probably fake. And yes I disagree strongly with the nerd stereotype. I have trouble meeting women because of my degree title alone (no its not in rapeology) - so I just dumb it down and say I am a writer or artist...

 

[Aero51]

Go up to a girl and tell her your an aerospace engineer and time how long until she disappears.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

Go up to a girl and tell her your an aerospace engineer and time how long until she disappears.

Perhaps your current lack of success in getting a date stems more from your generalisations of women than your chosen profession. In other words if you hold the opinions that for all women profession is a deal breaker and that aerospace engineering is not just undesirable but flat out repulsive then you've got some serious misconceptions that are bound to come across in other ways.

Lets have less of the casual sexism shall we?

 

[Pythagorean]

Going up and telling somewhat you do and the way you do it might be the repulsive behavior (and not the name of the profession itself).

 

[Jack21222]

Go up to a girl and tell her your an aerospace engineer and time how long until she disappears.

Wait, is that your pick-up line? "Hi, I''m an aerospace engineer!" To be fair, that would be a turn-off no matter what your degree or profession was.

EDIT: Bah! Pythagorean beat me by 1 minute.

 

[Evo]

Go up to a girl and tell her your an aerospace engineer and time how long until she disappears.

I've dated a number of aerospace engineers. Have you considered that you might be approaching the wrong type of woman?

 

[Averagesupernova]

I don't identify with being a nerd. Labels like that are silly. The show is probably bad, but its ok. Most shows are.

I nearly never volunteer my profession. If someone asks I say student, if asked for more I tack graduate in front. Only if pressed will i say I study physics.

I think this would show arrogance. Wouldn't have worked for me. Consider the following:

What do you do?
I'm a student.
Ok. Tell me more.
I'm a grad student.
Woman thinks to herself: "Hmmmm, didn't matter what he went to school for, he just wanted to let me know he likely has more education than I do. Note to self, avoid this guy the rest of the evening."

Maybe it works for you, maybe it doesn't. But the way you presented it caused the above scenario to play out in my mind. Maybe you are more tactful than that, I don't know.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

I nearly never volunteer my profession. If someone asks I say student, if asked for more I tack graduate in front. Only if pressed will i say I study physics. Many people assume if one studies physics, one must be some super genius. I don't think that's true. I am not smarter than the average bear, I just spend much more time doing physics than them.

I agree with Averagesupernova, I can't see this coming across well. Especially considering telling people what you do and having a discussion around it is a very normal part of meeting people. In my experience people do expect scientists to be above average intelligence but I don't see that as a hinderance to telling someone straight out what you do, if it comes up simply address it in a friendly manner like you say.

 

[Aero51]

To affirm my point, I am going to tell you two stories, one of myself and one of my friend and our encounters with women.

My story:
I was sitting outside a bar with my friend smoking a cigar. We were talking, he gets up and leaves to get a beer. A good looking girl approaches me...the scene has been set!
Girl: Is this seat taken
(This is a paraphrase of something that happened like 2 months ago)
Me: Well kinda, my friend was getting a beer but I don't think he'll mind.
Girl: Oh well I hope he doesn't.
Me: If he does I'll be there to comfort him.
Girl: laughs
The conversation continues, we hit it off well. She tells me she's was a graduate student in sociology (graduated), we discuss some of the work she is doing/has done...

After a long pause (not really an awkward silence, just the topic ran dry) she asked me:
Girl: So, what are you doing
Me: Actually, I'm a graduate student in aerospace engineering
Girl: Oh, wow! What are you studying within that field.
Me: Are you sure you want to know? It's really involved and highly specific. Its one of those things where if you are in the field its easy to talk about, but otherwise its foriegn to most people.
Girl: Oh cmon tell me.
Me: Ok... I am looking to research hyper-velocity projectiles. Maybe something in detonation propagation in supersonic/hypersonic flow. I'm also interested in turbulence too, so ideally my research project will encompass those concepts.
Girl: Oh, thats..ummm, interesting!
Me: It's ok, like I said its very specific to someone not in engineering.

Our conversation doesn't go anywhere after , I break the awkward silence with a bold question, knowing that I have no hope of talking to her again.

Me: Can I ask you something, in your honest opinion.
Girl: Yeah sure.
Me: Is there something about me that is intimidating or off-putting? I don't mean to be rude or put you on the spot, but every time I begin discussing what I do, girls stop talking to me. I always feel like girls are afraid to approach me, I have no idea why. Can you tell me the truth? I want to know because I don't understand.
Girl: Umm..well... your not intimidating to *me*, but I could definitely see why *most* girls would be. I mean, your really articulate and its obvious your intelligent. You're attractive, that coupled with being smart can definitely be intimidating to *many* girls.

I clearly caught her off guard, feeling bad I thanked her for her honesty. Shortly after she left, just after my friend returned from the bar. Another lonely night!


Here a story my friend (same one from above) shared with me over Christmas Break:

Basically, he was in a bar and met a cougar (a 'cougar' to you people who aren't savvy with modern culture is an older woman who's hot) things were going good with the cougar, until she saw some guy she knew and started hanging around him. My friend, feeling disgruntled, stuck around the bar for a while but then decided he'd rather go home. As he was leaving the cougar went up to him.
"Wait where are you going?!" she asked, clearly wanting him to stick around.
My friend, in a split split decision, said the follow: "Actually, I have to get going. I have a lot to do tomorrow. You see...I'm a Writer."
For the record, my friend is an aerospace engineering grad student too, also good looking, and thinking about going into structures. Well let me tell you, the girl was all over him for the rest of the night. Asking him many, many questions about his "work" in "writing". He played it well, got her number, got a kiss, she even wanted to see him the following day to take care of some "business". He didn't bother to call her back in fear of getting an STD and the fact that she was 20 years older than him - although she looked like she was 25 (hes 23).

 

[Mentalist]

What if said person doesn't want stigmas or stereotypes being attached? Or what if the person just doesn't want a bunch of questions being asked to him in relation to physics or something else? Sometimes people just want to do/discuss things different from their interest/profession. It isn't that they are arrogant but if you do something, say, study/work in research on physics/math/etc... for hours every day, and you actually go out to meet different people and discuss matters completely separate from your field of study/work, you don't want to then have to divulge what you do and the other person interested in what you do make the conversation about that and related topics to your field of work.

Sometimes when a person is seeking something new, they want to do something new. I never like the question, "what is your profession/study/etc...?" I may like what I do but that doesn't mean I want to talk about it when trying new things or meeting new people. I'd rather a conversation start off based on something rather inane and continue from there-on, and not something tired and routine as, "what's your profession?" I don't feel like going through the motions. But he may be thinking of something entirely different from what I am posting but that is just me on this specific issue.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

Aero51 are you serious lol? In a moment supposedly awkward* you throw out a fairly intense question and on the basis of this one girl's answer** you think you have firm evidence that women are intimidated by aerospace engineers? You realize that people are diverse yes? Women just as much as men.

Regarding your friends story I'm really tempted to ask if you're being serious again. A different setting with different people and a different profession and you think that firms up the idea that aerospace is something that universally puts women off? For all you know she could have been really interested in aerospace. That argument is like me concluding that its impossible to get a date if you're a biologist because on a hypothetical night I didn't manage to get one but my friend who's a carpenter did.

*Which purely from your description of it I would put down to explanation on your part. Obviously there's no other answer to the one she gave because she had no idea what you were talking about. When people ask me what I do I pitch it in terms a layman will understand and add on why the research is useful because throwing out technical jargon doesn't leave room for further discussion and it can come across as arrogant (the subtext being that they should know what you're talking about).

**Her answer being a very general "smart and attractive people can be intimidating" which is not specific to aerospace engineers.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Me: Are you sure you want to know? It's really involved and highly specific. Its one of those things where if you are in the field its easy to talk about, but otherwise its foriegn to most people.
Girl: Oh cmon tell me.
Me: Ok... I am looking to research hyper-velocity projectiles. Maybe something in detonation propagation in supersonic/hypersonic flow. I'm also interested in turbulence too, so ideally my research project will encompass those concepts.

It wasn't what you do that put her off. It was the way you claimed, and then proved, that she wouldn't be interested. You told her there was a huge gulf between you, thereby driving her into silence. You basically drove her away by saying, "Your attempt to choose what I do to chat about was ill-conceived and doomed."

 

[AnTiFreeze3]

To Aero51:

Learn how to articulate what it is you do, and what you research, to lay(wo)men. Judging from your story, she was interested in the fact that you are in graduate school for aerospace engineering, but was turned off the moment you started using field-specific terminology which, as you pointed out, is really only understood by fellow engineers. It's not that difficult to take "hyper-velocity projectiles", "detonation propagation in supersonic/hypersonic flow", and "turbulence" and dumb then down a bit, so that it isn't as off-putting.

EDIT:

It appears I have been beaten to the point... twice. But on a side note, if you really want to use anectodal evidence from a bar as a way to generalize an entire field as being unnattractive to women, then I suggest you call up your sociologist friend and see what she thinks of it

 

[Ryan_m_b]

It appears I have been beaten to the point... twice. But on a side note, if you really want to use anectodal evidence from a bar as a way to generalize an entire field as being unnattractive to women, then I suggest you call up your sociologist friend

Great minds people though I think you both put it much more succinctly than me.

 

[WannabeNewton]

Woah this thread escalated quickly lol. I just want to say very quickly that if one blames his failure to not get girls solely on him being a science student then in reality he probably just sucks at getting girls which is a science in and of itself.

 

[Aero51]

Well, I don't know what to say. You're going to tell me not to feel what I feel based off of the experiences I've had. I think anyone knows that doesn't make sense. Perhaps you want me to produce every experience I have had on this subject? I can certainly do that, but it seems that the majority of you are convinced that personal experiences are worthless, which is sad, so why waste the time?

 

[Ryan_m_b]

Well, I don't know what to say. You're going to tell me not to feel what I feel based off of the experiences I've had. I think anyone knows that doesn't make sense. Perhaps you want me to produce every experience I have had on this subject? I can certainly do that, but it seems that the majority of you are convinced that personal experiences are worthless, which is sad, so why waste the time?

No we find your conclusions at odd with reality as we've experienced it, then questioned you on the basis of that and still not been convinced by your conclusions after hearing your experiences.

 

[WannabeNewton]

No I think the point being made is that your anecdote isn't supportive of your claim because explaining something to a random girl with very pretentious and esoteric verbiage will obviously not interest him/her in general. If a girl asks you what you do and you respond riemannian geometry and she asks oh what is that and you go ahead and initiate a cacophony of technical definitions and ideas regarding the subject then she has all the right not to be interested. There is a time and place to sit on one's high horse and there are many a times and many a places where one must get off of it.

 

[Aero51]

Its obvious we've had different experiance, considering I've never had a healthy relationship with a woman. Thatis the nature of my argument. Personally, I think our experiances may be uncompairable. Thats all Ill say

 

[Ryan_m_b]

Its obvious we've had different experiance, considering I've never had a healthy relationship with a woman. Thatis the nature of my argument. Personally, I think our experiances may be uncompairable. Thats all Ill say

The nature of my argument is that the reason you've not had a healthy relationship is not that you study aerospace engineering. No amount of anecdotal evidence would convince me as such given my own experience that women are just as diverse as men and there is not a single attribute that is universally disliked to such a deal breaking extent. Couple that with the fact that I'm willing to bet that there are female aerospace engineers and male ones in a relationship I can't help but conclude there are other reasons you are single.

Now that's not to say you won't find someone by any means, just that you haven't and perhaps there are things you can change to give yourself an easier time of it. Such as taking the advice given by multiple people now on how to talk about what you do in an accessible way.

 

[russ_watters]

Perhaps your current lack of success in getting a date stems more from your generalisations of women than your chosen profession.

Disagree. Most stereotypes are stereotypes because they are observed patterns.

"This is my friend Jeff. He takes care of baby seals for a living" works great as a pick-up line/conversation starter. In fact, I once used it successfully while Jeff was in the bathroom. Working the fact that I'm a mechanical engineer into a conversation has never produced good results. Amateur astronomer, on the other hand, does work reasonably well.

 

[Aero51]

I think you missed my point. I was saying science majors in general not mine. I have found it can be intimidating, affirmed when I asked that girl. Shes not the only one I asked, she was the first stranger though. Personally, I want to find a girl who isn't off-put by that..

 

[Ryan_m_b]

Disagree. Most stereotypes are stereotypes because they are observed patterns.

"This is my friend Jeff. He takes care of baby seals for a living" works great as a pick-up line/conversation starter. In fact, I once used it successfully while Jeff was in the bathroom. Working the fact that I'm a mechanical engineer into a conversation has never produced good results. Amateur astronomer, on the other hand, does work reasonably well.

I think you missed my point. I never argued that all professions are equally attractive to all people, that's pretty much the opposite of what I was saying given my point about generalisations. Yes for many people being a doctor might make a person more attractive than being a car park attendant but that's not universal and its definitely not make or break as Aero was saying. He did after all start this conversation with the comment that he can't get a date because of what he does implying that aerospace engineering is guaranteed to repel all women irrespective of everything else (made clear by his later post where a girl told him he was intelligent, articulate and attractive but she still walked away after he told her what he did).

I think you missed my point. I was saying science majors in general not mine. I have found it can be intimidating, affirmed when I asked that girl. Shes not the only one I asked, she was the first stranger though. Personally, I want to find a girl who isn't off-put by that..

Well you didn't because you started by specifically saying aerospace engineering but regardless I don't think this is true either. I don't see that scientists have a harder time getting girlfriends and boyfriends than any other group.

 

[Jack21222]

Its obvious we've had different experiance, considering I've never had a healthy relationship with a woman. Thatis the nature of my argument.

This thread has gotten way off track, but until the show airs tomorrow, I guess that's unavoidable. I hope the thread doesn't get closed before then.

As for you, Aero, have you ever stopped to consider that maybe your personality is the reason you've never had a healthy relationship with women, and not your degree? I think you're trying to extrapolate from one data point.

 

[lisab]

I think you missed my point. I was saying science majors in general not mine. I have found it can be intimidating, affirmed when I asked that girl. Shes not the only one I asked, she was the first stranger though. Personally, I want to find a girl who isn't off-put by that..

Studying science/engineering can have liabilities like this, I agree. Btw, just try to guess how hard it can be for a woman! When first meeting a guy, revealing I was a physics major was like a dude repellent.

But I take the same tack as you - it's a numbers game, if you meet enough people, you will eventually find one who isn't put off.

 

[BenG549]

Go up to a girl and tell her your an aerospace engineer and time how long until she disappears.

I have a good friend who spent a successful stint "hooking up" by saying exactly this! Used to tell girls that was his degree and that he was going to work on F1 cars or go into rocket engineering (he was into engineering anyway so could blag his way though an vaguely technical questions) But it was a big hit!

1 of 2 things are clearly happening here... Either you are talking to the wrong women, or you need to improve your social skills. I appreciate the stereotype that scientist are typically introverted and not that socially intelligent must stem from somewhere... but their inability to score is not based on the fact they are a scientist, it's because they are introverted and not socially intelligent.

I've got a BSc and I've just finished working towards my MSc... I've had girlfriends, I've had convocations about what I do in bars that don't scare people... probably becuase my opener isn't "You won't understand it because it's too specialised" that sound a little too much like "I'm smarter than you, you won't understand"... I guarantee if you had just said "I love engineering and rockets etc and I'd love to work in that field" you would have had a very different reaction!

 

[BenG549]

In general people definitely react to the person not the profession... although you can probably think of some obvious exceptions to this, being a scientist is not one of them. Being demonstrably intelligent (a scientist) and socially likeable (not sounding arrogant for example) in this age is a big YES in any girls book.

Some evolutionary biologist might want to jump in here and clarify why this might be, but that's my experience.

 

[BenG549]

When first meeting a guy, revealing I was a physics major...

That's the dream! I'd love to meet a girl with overlapping academic interests... as long as she was likeable and able to discuss it with me without being boarder line insulting about my ignorance lol.

But I take the same tack as you - it's a numbers game, if you meet enough people, you will eventually find one who isn't put off.

Too true, keep at it, there is someone out there!

 

[zoobyshoe]

Well, I don't know what to say. You're going to tell me not to feel what I feel based off of the experiences I've had.

You don't get it. You're causing the experiences you have by being so sure it's the way things have to play out.

Me: Actually, I'm a graduate student in aerospace engineering
Girl: Oh, wow! What are you studying within that field.
Me: Are you sure you want to know? It's really involved and highly specific. Its one of those things where if you are in the field its easy to talk about, but otherwise its foriegn to most people.
Girl: Oh cmon tell me.
Me: Ok... I am looking to research hyper-velocity projectiles. Maybe something in detonation propagation in supersonic/hypersonic flow. I'm also interested in turbulence too, so ideally my research project will encompass those concepts.
Girl: Oh, thats..ummm, interesting!
Me: It's ok, like I said its very specific to someone not in engineering.

Our conversation doesn't go anywhere after...

You told her she wouldn't be interested, and then you made certain that would be the case by phrasing your further explanation of what you do in such a way as to make it inaccessible to her. You're pre-emptively pushing these women away and then blaming it on them.

 

[Aero51]

Studying science/engineering can have liabilities like this, I agree. Btw, just try to guess how hard it can be for a woman! When first meeting a guy, revealing I was a physics major was like a dude repellent.

Well if its any consent, whenever I meet a girl in the sciences (when going out) I find it extremely attractive. Problem is that they are all 10 years older than me.

 

[Evo]

After a long pause (not really an awkward silence, just the topic ran dry) she asked me:
Girl: So, what are you doing
Me: Actually, I'm a graduate student in aerospace engineering
Girl: Oh, wow! What are you studying within that field.
Me: Are you sure you want to know? It's really involved and highly specific. Its one of those things where if you are in the field its easy to talk about, but otherwise its foriegn to most people.
Girl: Oh cmon tell me.
Me: Ok... I am looking to research hyper-velocity projectiles. Maybe something in detonation propagation in supersonic/hypersonic flow. I'm also interested in turbulence too, so ideally my research project will encompass those concepts.
Girl: Oh, thats..ummm, interesting!
Me: It's ok, like I said its very specific to someone not in engineering.

Sorry, but you come across as condescending and arrogant in your description of how you conduct yourself. You make it sound like your major is the only one that a person outside of the field wouldn't understand. Do you realize how many fields have specialized knowledge and use words and acronyms that outsiders (that would be you) wouldn't understand? And the fact that you seem unable to explain what you do so that people can understand comes across as you either do not have the ability to do so or intentionally try to be difficult. I used to live near NASA in Clear lake, so aerospace engineers were as common as flies.

Girl: Umm..well... your not intimidating to *me*, but I could definitely see why *most* girls would be. I mean, your really articulate and its obvious your intelligent. You're attractive, that coupled with being smart can definitely be intimidating to *many* girls.

I clearly caught her off guard, feeling bad I thanked her for her honesty.

Ok, you're joking, aren't you?

 

[xxChrisxx]

Its probably fake. And yes I disagree strongly with the nerd stereotype. I have trouble meeting women because of my degree title alone (no its not in rapeology) - so I just dumb it down and say I am a writer or artist...

Allow me to be 100% clear on this.
It's not the degree title, its you.

Sorry, but you come across as condescending and arrogant in your description of how you conduct yourself.

Don't be sorry Evo; Darwin is hard at work.

 

[Aero51]

You know what's interesting... A lot of you take this really topic personally. I really don't understand this.
I'm not trying to be arrogant, condescending, etc. I'm being myself. Someone asks a question, I give them an answer. What do you do with your life..this is what I do with my life...
If it sounds arrogant that I answered a question, honestly, then I don't know what to say. Maybe I should be asking: what do you want to hear?

The purpose of going out is usually to meet someone. You do that by talking to them and asking them questions. If you water down your answers, isn't that effectively being a phony? In turn, doesn't that defeat the purpose of meeting someone?

More importantly, what does it say about the person answering them? If you water your self down as you answer someone, aren't you passively saying "I don't expect you to understand" without even providing them any insight as to what you do?! Too me, that's far more insulting than someone being very technical with their answer. I understand how the latter can overload someone and come off as overbearing, but I don't see how it comes off as arrogant.

Overall, I'd rather tell someone straight-up what the deal is and if they don't like it then they can go away. It's upsetting that its taken offensively, when honesty is supposedly one values in a individual.

 

[Evo]

You know what's interesting... A lot of you take this really topic personally. I really don't understand this.
I'm not trying to be arrogant, condescending, etc. I'm being myself. Someone asks a question, I give them an answer. What do you do with your life..this is what I do with my life...

You say you can't get a date, then describe your actions that drive women away, and we're telling you what you're doing wrong. What you do with the feedback is up to you.

If it sounds arrogant that I answered a question, honestly, then I don't know what to say. Maybe I should be asking: what do you want to hear?

Because you start by telling them they won't understand because it's so complex. Not really, you just make it sound complex. Admittedly not everyone has the ability to take a subject and explain the basic idea, it's is a skill.

The purpose of going out is usually to meet someone. You do that by talking to them and asking them questions. If you water down your answers, isn't that effectively being a phony? In turn, doesn't that defeat the purpose of meeting someone?

You don't seem to be able to see yourself as others do. Back to my answer above, it's a skill to be able to talk to people with different sets of knowledge. Fortunately, it is a skill that you can work on, and possibly achieve.

More importantly, what does it say about the person answering them? If you water your self down as you answer someone, aren't you passively saying "I don't expect you to understand" without even providing them any insight as to what you do?! Too me, that's far more insulting than someone being very technical with their answer. I understand how the latter can overload someone and come off as overbearing, but I don't see how it comes off as arrogant.

See above. Being able to explain what you are studying in understandable terms is a valuable interpersonal skill and shows respect for those you wish to converse with.

Overall, I'd rather tell someone straight-up what the deal is and if they don't like it then they can go away.

Well, I must say you seem to have achieved your goal.

 

[zoobyshoe]

The purpose of going out is usually to meet someone. You do that by talking to them and asking them questions. If you water down your answers, isn't that effectively being a phony? In turn, doesn't that defeat the purpose of meeting someone?

OK. But how do you expect a girl to be attracted to a guy who makes a special point of planting this idea in her head: "I am undesirable. Girls hear what I do and split."