Circulating a fluid at a very high speed in a spiral pipe

[iridiu]

Through a spiral pipe is circulating a fluid with high speed, this will lead to many effects and forces like inertia and gyroscopic effect.

http://www.2live.ro/demo/Serpentina.bmp

I do not know how to approach the problem in order to find the distribution of forces.

http://www.2live.ro/demo/Serpentina1.bmp

In this process of circulating the fluid in spiral pipe will appear lateral forces, or spiral pipe will remain inert because forces cancel each other at all levels?

 

[CWatters]

Interesting question.

Just looking at the inlet and outlet pipes shows you have mass that enters the system with one velocity and comes out with another velocity (the speed component is the same but the direction component changes).

 

[A.T.]

I think the force will be just down, like shown in the picture, due to momentum change. It is the same force as with a simple U-piece. To find the distribution go to the rotating rest frame of the water in the turn and consider the pressure gradient caused by the centrifugal force.

For the gyroscopic effect the number of windings does matter, because you have more mass and thus more angular momentum.

 

[iridiu]

Thank you very much.

 

[Chestermiller]

Google Fluid Flow in a Curved Pipe. Such a flow is known to exhibit a secondary flow at each cross section.

 

[iridiu]

Experiment

I did a practical experiment to check the distribution of forces and I noticed the appearance of a predominant force which is the result of trajectory change of the fluid.

http://www.2live.ro/demo/Spira.bmp

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0kb8dYL0lQ

 

[iridiu]

Any feedback is appreciated, thank you.

 

[iridiu]

It is assumed that a mass which travels in a closed loop will not generate a linear motion and all forces will cancel each other. Such a system would necessarily violate the law of conservation of momentum.

Imagine that the spiral pipe is a closed loop system, do you think that building a thruster of this kind it is impossible? I think I can demonstrate the opposite. I wait for your opinions.

Thank you in advance.

 

[A.T.]

http://www.2live.ro/demo/Spira.bmp

If the fluid goes out at the same velocity as it comes in, there should be no net force on the pipe. But this is not the case in the video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0kb8dYL0lQ

The fluid comes back where it came from, so it changes momentum. There is a reaction force on the float, which interacts with the elastic pipes, causing the swinging. Even if you make the net force zero, you still eventually have a net torque which will cause some movement. There is also possibly a "kick" when you switch the pump on, and the higher pressure straightens the pipes.

 

[iridiu]

What if the fluid is accelerating?

 

[246ohms]

The coil causes a pressure drop so the inlet pressure will be higher than the outlet pressure. As pressure over an area relates to force there will be an imbalance. Also the friction will allow heat to dissipate along the coil and so an energy transfer happens there. The differential pressure within the pipes will be difficult to quantify as they will want to straighten under pressure, this force may corrupt your test results.

Also the coil you have drawn has a distinct separation from inlet to outlet but your test apperatus has the pipes close together, you may like to try the test with the pipes as drawn. Acceleration and de-acceleration will play a large part in your test as you start and stop the pump.

It is a rather elagant test but pipe straightening, P*A forces, heat dissipation and pressure loss make it tricky to deduce meaningful results. Not to mention the pipe shortening due to pressure increase, twisting of the coil as a result and gyroscopic effects causing motion.

 

[iridiu]

Action and reaction

From a simplified perspective I will try to present my point of view on the phenomenon.

http://www.2live.ro/demo/Spira.bmp

Reaction is represented by the force exerted by the pipe walls on the forward path of the fluid, and from there result a change of trajectory equivalent with the distance "d" between the point of entry of the fluid "1" and the output point of the fluid "2". From this change of trajectory of the fluid results a linear force which occurs simultaneously and opposite in direction, according to Newton's third law of motion.

 

[A.T.]

From this change of trajectory of the fluid results a linear force which occurs simultaneously and opposite in direction

No. Translating the trajectory, while preserving the velocity vector, doesn't change the momentum of the fluid, so there is no linear force.

 

[246ohms]

No. Translating the trajectory, while preserving the velocity vector, doesn't change the momentum of the fluid, so there is no linear force.

So you are saying there is no force involved here? It seems moving a mass from plane to another needs a force otherwise this this neat little tube could represent, say, a tube train tunnel where we get free transport. Problem of mass transport solved!

For sure there is a force.

 

[cjl]

So you are saying there is no force involved here? It seems moving a mass from plane to another needs a force otherwise this this neat little tube could represent, say, a tube train tunnel where we get free transport. Problem of mass transport solved!

For sure there is a force.

Moving a mass does not require a net force. Accelerating a mass requires a force. The mass in this case (the fluid) comes into the system and leaves the system with the same momentum, so no force is required.

 

[246ohms]

Moving a mass does not require a net force. Accelerating a mass requires a force. The mass in this case (the fluid) comes into the system and leaves the system with the same momentum, so no force is required.

OK so let's rotate the coil by 90 degree in such a way that the exit is above the entry. Now the fluid leaving is higher and so has potential energy increase, that surely requires a force.

 

[A.T.]

OK so let's rotate the coil by 90 degree in such a way that the exit is above the entry. Now the fluid leaving is higher and so has potential energy increase, that surely requires a force.

We are discussing the net force on the pipe by the fluid here. This is only non zero when there a net momentum change of the fluid in the pipe. The force that moves the fluid upwards is not coming from the pipe, but from the pump.

 

[iridiu]

Linear force from inertia

Let's suppose we have a closed loop, as shown in the drawings. From the earlier discussion I concluded that to produce a linear force, acceleration is needed F=m\asta, but to produce a linear force in one direction, irrespective of the direction of circulation of the fluid in the system, another arrangement is necessary.
http://www.2live.ro/demo/perspectiva.bmp

http://www.2live.ro/demo/arc.bmp

From my point of view, irrespective of the direction of fluid circulation, linear force will be generated in one direction and there is no other force to cancel it.

 

[A.T.]

Let's suppose we have a closed loop ... linear force will be generated

No matter how many funny shapes you invent: If the fluid makes one cycle, and arrives at the start point with the same momentum vector, then there is no net momentum transfer to the pipe.

 

[iridiu]

Open

Now it's open:

http://www.2live.ro/demo/arc_open.bmp

 

[A.T.]

Now it's open:

[PLAIN]http://www.2live.ro/demo/arc_open.bmp[/QUOTE]

But still no net change in momentum between entrance and exit.

 

[iridiu]

Funny shape and momentum

Now I have to explain why I made this funny shape. For example, if we assume we have a pipe semicircle shaped and assume that at both ends we have a piston that works in tandem with the other one, one pushes and the other pulls the fluid inside the pipe, as represented in the picture:

http://www.2live.ro/demo/semicerc.bmp

From here we see that all the forces are manifested in the same plane, interacting and canceling each other. Further I sought for a solution to break the forces in two perpendicular planes and the best solution found for this is a spiral pipe bent at an angle of 90 degrees:

http://www.2live.ro/demo/spirala.bmp

As I stated in previous posts, I looked for a solution to get a directional force only in one direction, irrespective of the direction of fluid circulation:

http://www.2live.ro/demo/split.bmp

If the fluid has variable acceleration and variable speed, there is net momentum transfer to the pipe?

 

[A.T.]

If the fluid has variable acceleration and variable speed, there is net momentum transfer to the pipe?

If the flow rates at inflow and outflow change in the same way, so they are equal at any time point, then no.

If you get into compressibility and pressure wave propagation, they you can have short term instantaneous net forces on the pipe, but they will average to zero, if you accelerate/decelerate the flow cyclically.

 

[iridiu]

Impulse, momentum, change in momentum

When a fluid speeds up or slows down, inertial forces come into play. Such forces may be produced by either a change in the magnitude or the direction of the velocity since either change in this vector quantity produces acceleration.

The change in momentum of a mass is equal to the impulse given to it. (Newton's 2nd law of motion)

Impulse = Force x time
Momentum = mass x velocity
Change in momentum = Δmv

Newton's second law: Δmv = Ft
Δmv/t = F
Since Δv/t = acceleration "a", we get form of the law F=ma

The force is a vector quantity which must be in the direction of Δv. Every force has an equal and opposite reaction so there must be a force on the bend equal and opposite to the force on the fluid.

 

[iridiu]

Inertial propulsion system

I will explain the whole system from my point of view, please correct me if I'm wrong.
It is widely accepted that an propulsion system which do not expel reaction mass, but it is not reactionless may be impossible due to some factors. So, if a mass makes one cycle on a trajectory and arrives at the start point, then there the sum of all forces generated will be zero. I agree with this, because all attempts from field of "inertial propulsion" have one thing in common: cyclical motion of the mass and trajectory, takes place only in one plane.

But what happens if in an inertial system the cycle of the mass it is splitted in two or more planes? A mass makes one cycle on a trajectory which is splitted in two or more planes and arrives at the start point. Generated forces will be different from zero on each plane and if planes are perpendicular, generated forces will no longer cancel each other. Solution found to split the forces in two perpendicular planes is a spiral pipe bent at an angle of 90 degrees.

Now I return to my closed loop pipe and I imagine that is containing inside a fluid that can be controlled by electromagnetic fields. It is known that electromagnetic fields can carry energy and momentum. If there will be momentum exchange between electromagnetic fields and fluid, the system is not closed.

http://www.2live.ro/demo/arc.bmp

From my point of view in this particular case, this system can become an inertial thruter which do not expel reaction mass, it is not reactionless and I want to know if there are factors that may make it impossible. I know scientists are not in the habit of trying things they know won't work, but if someone will test the system, it is very possible to have a surprise.

 

[cjl]

Unfortunately, it still will not work. The fact that the entire system is not coplanar is irrelevant - if you were to analyze the forces on the fluid (and on the pipe) along the entire path, and integrate them to find the net force, it would still be zero. This is a case where your intuition is leading you astray - the same principle as applies in the simple case still applies here, but due to the increased complexity, it is no longer as obvious.

 

[A.T.]

Next up:

 

[iridiu]

Imbalance

Unfortunately, it still will not work. The fact that the entire system is not coplanar is irrelevant - if you were to analyze the forces on the fluid (and on the pipe) along the entire path, and integrate them to find the net force, it would still be zero. This is a case where your intuition is leading you astray - the same principle as applies in the simple case still applies here, but due to the increased complexity, it is no longer as obvious.

From another point of view, you are wrong, I'll tell you why... Let's see what happens along the entire path with a very simple example:

http://www.2live.ro/demo/ball.bmp

Count the turns in each side and imagine you launched a metal ball inside the pipe. As you can see from the picture, there is an imbalance in one side which contains one more arc. When the ball has reached the final, one force will be generated exactly like in case of a simple u-piece or similar with this:

http://www.2live.ro/demo/Serpentina1.bmp

I think the force will be just down, like shown in the picture, due to momentum change. It is the same force as with a simple U-piece. To find the distribution go to the rotating rest frame of the water in the turn and consider the pressure gradient caused by the centrifugal force.

For the gyroscopic effect the number of windings does matter, because you have more mass and thus more angular momentum.

Now let's see the difference between first picture and this one:

http://www.2live.ro/demo/arc_open.bmp

Where's the imbalance? Disappeared? I need to know which principle says the result is zero in this case.

 

[A.T.]

I need to know which principle says the result is zero in this case.

The principle is called Conservation of Momentum:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Momentum#Conservation

The net force on the pipe by the fluid equals the negated net momentum change of the fluid in the pipe.

 

[iridiu]

:)

The principle is called Conservation of Momentum:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Momentum#Conservation

The net force on the pipe by the fluid equals the negated net momentum change of the fluid in the pipe.

You said: "It is the same force as with a simple U-piece", about this:

http://www.2live.ro/demo/Serpentina1.bmp

And this one is too complex... Like a maze and because of Conservation of Momentum, everything is zero:

http://www.2live.ro/demo/ball.bmp

If you take out the coils you will have a U-piece.

Closed system - one that does not exchange any matter with the outside and is not acted on by outside forces
Closed loop is not equal with closed system (electromagnetic fields can carry energy and momentum).
It's easy to invoke a rule when you don't have an argument.

 

[A.T.]

And this one is too complex... Like a maze and because of Conservation of Momentum, everything is zero:

http://www.2live.ro/demo/ball.bmp

No, in the one above the net force is not zero. But in the one below it is zero:

http://www.2live.ro/demo/arc_open.bmp

It's easy to invoke a rule when you don't have an argument.

You asked which principle, I told you the principle. I also gave you my argument: The net force on the pipe by the fluid must equal the negated net momentum change of the fluid in the pipe.

 

[cjl]

And this one is too complex... Like a maze and because of Conservation of Momentum, everything is zero:

[PLAIN]http://www.2live.ro/demo/ball.bmp[/QUOTE]

No - actually, conservation of momentum works perfectly well in this case. All you need to do is look at the flow entering the pipe, and the flow exiting the pipe. In this case, the flow entering the pipe is going upwards, but the exit flow is downwards. Thus, by conservation of momentum, there must be a net upwards force on the pipe to counter the downwards force on the fluid. However, this all changes when you bend the above system:

http://www.2live.ro/demo/arc_open.bmp

Now, the incoming flow (I'll assume the inlet is on the left) is traveling to the left. The outcoming flow is also traveling to the left. Assuming the pipe is constant diameter, and the fluid is incompressible, the flow speed is the same at the inlet and outlet. Therefore, since the flow speed and direction are identical at both the inlet and the outlet, there is no net momentum change in the fluid, so there is no force on the pipe.

I think you're confusing yourself with the spiral pipe. It's true that in the first image above, the net force can be considered to be entirely from the U-shaped section, and the forces in the spirals all cancel out. However, this is no longer the case when you bend the spirals. The force nearly cancels out in the spirals when they are bent (so long as the bend radius is large relative to the spiral radius), but it doesn't entirely cancel out, and if you felt inclined to do the vector sum along the entire path, you would discover that the slight imbalance in the spiral is exactly enough to counteract the force in the U-shaped section. That method is absolutely valid, it simply isn't used very frequently since conservation of momentum allows us to arrive at the same result with much less effort (and it allows us to bypass errors of intuition more easily).

 

[KHMOU YOUSSEF]

I propose the following :
Consider the geometry you described in Cartesian base (X,Y,Z), so you have incompressible flow with constant radius of the pipe, with Z changing, you can apply the Bernoulli law :
V^2 / 2 + g*Z+P/rho= constant

You can compute the force by deriving the pressure from the above equation

 

[iridiu]

Thank you

No - actually, conservation of momentum works perfectly well in this case. All you need to do is look at the flow entering the pipe, and the flow exiting the pipe. In this case, the flow entering the pipe is going upwards, but the exit flow is downwards. Thus, by conservation of momentum, there must be a net upwards force on the pipe to counter the downwards force on the fluid. However, this all changes when you bend the above system:

Now, the incoming flow (I'll assume the inlet is on the left) is traveling to the left. The outcoming flow is also traveling to the left. Assuming the pipe is constant diameter, and the fluid is incompressible, the flow speed is the same at the inlet and outlet. Therefore, since the flow speed and direction are identical at both the inlet and the outlet, there is no net momentum change in the fluid, so there is no force on the pipe.

Thank you for your answer, now I understand quite well how conservation of momentum works. My knowledge of physics are limited, this is why I sought clarification in this forum.
I made ​​few tests in a rudimentary manner as shown in video in previous posts where I used a diaphragm pump and a flexible/elastic pipe shaped as shown in pictures. Forces represented in the pictures are observed in the experiments, results of experiments generating my confusion.
I assume that these forces have emerged due to differences arising between inlet and the outlet. Diaphragm pump is generating a pulsating flow, in combination with elastic pipe, attenuation occurs on pulsating flow so that the resulting output flow is approximately laminar flow. I assume that between inlet and outlet there was a momentum change in the fluid.

I assume that in this case, if correct, manipulating fluid flow in certain areas of the pipe can lead to the generation of desired forces.

 

[A.T.]

I made ​​few tests in a rudimentary manner as shown in video in previous posts where I used a diaphragm pump and a flexible/elastic pipe shaped as shown in pictures. Forces represented in the pictures are observed in the experiments, results of experiments generating my confusion.
I assume that these forces have emerged due to differences arising between inlet and the outlet. Diaphragm pump is generating a pulsating flow, in combination with elastic pipe, attenuation occurs on pulsating flow so that the resulting output flow is approximately laminar flow. I assume that between inlet and outlet there was a momentum change in the fluid.

I explained that to you in post #9

I assume that in this case, if correct, manipulating fluid flow in certain areas of the pipe can lead to the generation of desired forces.

What are the forces you desire. What is the goal here?

 

[iridiu]

What are the forces you desire. What is the goal here?

To find a way to produce more thrust than this one: Ion Thruster, using only electric current.

 

[iridiu]

What if?

What if the system is splitted in 3 sections: blue, yellow and red?

http://www.2live.ro/demo/sections.bmp

Blue section - fluid flow in this section is constant preserving the velocity vector, the mass in this case comes into pipe and leaves the pipe with the same momentum.
Yellow section - this section is composed by a liquid slug generator (gas/liquid) and a liquid separator.
Red section - the role of this section is to accelerate the liquid slugs. The high momentum of the liquid slugs create considerable force. We have compressibility and pressure wave propagation, so there must be instantaneous net forces in red section.

 

[A.T.]

What if the system is splitted in 3 sections: blue, yellow and red?

http://www.2live.ro/demo/sections.bmp

Blue section - fluid flow in this section is constant preserving the velocity vector, the mass in this case comes into pipe and leaves the pipe with the same momentum.

No. It leaves with the opposite momentum. The velocity vector is flipped in the blue section.

 

[iridiu]

Considering this article: http://www.popsci.com/article/technology/fuel-less-space-drive-may-actually-work-says-nasa and this two videos:





In these rudimentary constructions I acquired a superior thrust force compared with space drive tested by NASA.

 

[CWatters]

In these rudimentary constructions I acquired a superior thrust force...

Thrust or torque? I don't see any evidence in either vid that you have made a reactionless drive. You are rotating the Earth the other way.

No doubt the moderators will be along soon to close the thread.

 

[A.T.]

No doubt the moderators will be along soon to close the thread.

At least it's not magnets again.

 

[A.T.]

If the water circulates one way, the platform will turn the other way. That is just conservation of angular momentum. In the first case the tubes can also transfer momentum.

 

[CWatters]

Just in case he doesn't get it...

 

[A.T.]

Just in case he doesn't get it...
https://www.physicsforums.com/data/attachments/56/56407-7e82b012611c54eaf0a473a00967f957.jpg

In that first case the floating platform reverses the linear momentum of the water, so it's pulled out, and the elastic tubes (which also straighten under pressure) make it swing.

The angular momentum conservation explanation was mainly referring to the second video, with the hanging platform.

Tasks for iridiu:

1) Replace your magic spiral with a straight piece of tube on the hanging platform. Does it change the result?

2) Stop switching the pump on and off. Just let it run until an equilibrium is established, against a significant counter torque of the strings. For this remove the straight piece of the string, and just attach the 4 strings directly to the ceiling. Is the equilibrium orientation with pump running different from the equilibrium orientation with pump off?

 

[iridiu]

I know we do not have the same point of view, but I think there are more forces that manifest themselves simultaneously in the "magic spiral", one is explained here: http://www.google.com/patents/US6321783
Elasticity of the tube is very important, because there is vibration and mechanical resonance.

 

[A.T.]

I know we do not have the same point of view,

It's not a matter of opinion, but of experiment. Why don't you replace the spiral with a straight piece? Any honest experimenter would have done this control test on his own.