Climbing my way to a Physics PhD 10 years after a Philosophy BA

[beethovenscroissant]

Hi all!

It's been a decade since I graduated with a bachelor's in philosophy. I went to an ivy planning double major with physics, but I ultimately dropped the latter after my introductory courses and graduated with a poor GPA (2.7). To save you the sob story, I basically had no ability to cope with the various non-academic hardships I first experienced in college.

Those problems are long in the past and I intend to make my way toward a PhD in Physics. I've been self-studying a lot, but I'm well aware it will still be very hard and that career opportunities in physics research are few and underpaid. I still want to try.

So I apologize for the long-winded post, but I was wondering which of these potential routes to grad school seems to make the most sense to you.

1) Open University

I'm based in NYC, but am currently strongly considering enrolling in the UK's Open University (regionally accredited in the US). There are three physics degrees I'd be interested in:

• M06 - Integrated Master of Physics (including research)
• R51 - Bsc in Physics
• Q77 - BSc in Mathematics and Physics -- not quite a full double major like in the US, but something a bit in between

The master's program is appealing because of the built-in research component and because it offers the most flexibility with courses -- I'd like to take as much math(s) as possible while still doing a 'full' physics degree.

That said, I do wonder whether it might just be smarter to get one of the bachelors and try to apply for a Masters's or even a PhD program in the US immediately afterward. I do also have some worries about whether the OUs degrees would be recognized in the US, but it seems plenty others have had success with this route.

The master's is estimated to take 8 years part-time (4 years full), which is what I'd likely do, although I could likely skip the introductory classes and take on a few extra credits for the first year or two.

2) A local public university degree
Alternatively, there's the option of studying locally at a CUNY or SUNY school (NY's public universities). It seems 'safer' in that I'd be going to a brick US school. But it seems much harder to be able to take the classes I would need outside of work hours and to generally maintain a work-study-life balance in the long-term.

These schools don't really seem cheaper than the OU aside from small tax incentives so I see little benefit over the OU besides doing the labs in person. Which I realize might be a big benefit to some people, but it does seem like the OU's remote labs are pretty neat. I'm much more interested in the theoretical side of things anyway, but I realize that often changes.

3) Self-study, ace the GREs, and try really hard to get into a Master's program

Lastly, I've heard some folks with liberal arts BA's getting into physics master's programs before earning their PhD. But I assume that would be virtually impossible without proving some physics competency first. So is there any chance a Master's program might accept me if, say, I aced the Physics and Math GRE subject tests, managed some great professional letters of recommendation, reached out to the department, and maybe took a couple of non-degree higher level physics classes?

This would seem the 'fastest' route -- I know I'd likely have to take some undergrad courses during my Masters's program -- but while I don't doubt my ability to perform excellently in the subject tests, I don't know if great GRE scores would offset the lack of a formal education to get into the program at all.

I realize any choice I make will get me closer to my goals, just wondering which route seems to make the most sense to those of you in the field. Any other options I'm missing? Thank you so much in advance.

 

[Vanadium 50]

A few things:

1) Is acing the GRE a plan? Or is it a hope?

2) The three elements to grad school admission are grades, PGRE score, and Letters of Recommendation. With an entirely remote program, how do you intend to get strong LoRs?

3) Terminal Masters programs are usually not intended as feeders into PhD programs, at least in tbe US. They are also less commonly financially supported.

4) If you have to do this part-time, an x year program at y% of your time takes 100x/y years to complete. Depending on x and y these numbers can range from acceptable to difficult to unrealistic.

 

[Choppy]

(I think V50 beat me to some points...)
Personally I'd scratch number three off the list from the start. Generally speaking, even if you ace the GRE (which would be extremely rate for someone attempting it through self study alone), most admission committees won't look at you without any formal education in the subject nor without a GPA that meets the minimum admission standards. And admission is a competitive process. Your peers will be the upper echelon students among those who have completed undergraduate physics degrees. (Even if you did manage to get in, you may find yourself in a place you don't want to be with holes in your education that can't be fixed with a remedial undergraduate course or two.)

It seems like you're aware of the concern that doing this part-time is going to stretch out the time to completion. Eight years is a long time. And even then, you'll only be in a position to start a PhD which will be another four plus years (full time).

One option to consider might be enrolling in an undergraduate physics course or two at a local community college that you can do in the evenings and see if you really enjoy it. If you're successful and absolutely love it, you'll be in a better position to decide whether or not to make a bigger commitment.

 

[Vanadium 50]

I think V50 beat me to some points...

Forgot one.

5) Make sure physics is what you think it is. The number of physicists spending their times considering the deep philosophical aspects is tiny, As I said elsewhere, your PhD thesis will not be "Understanding the Universe". It will be "The Spectrum of Glopolium".

 

[beethovenscroissant]

I appreciate the thorough responses!

To provide a bit more background and answer your questions:

• I've been lurking around this and other physics communities since college, so I'm definitely aware that a life in physics academia is not the pop culture version of it =]. For the past decade, I've tried to convince myself that I could just learn physics on my own and didn't need the degree. Clearly, that hasn't worked, so it's time to just go ahead and do it.
• I don't mean to sound overconfident, but my poor grades in college didn't have much to do with the course material. I had my first real bout with clinical depression as I entered college, and during my first 2-3 years, simply getting out of bed was a struggle, let alone showing up to class and doing homework.
  Honestly, I'm glad I went through that at a younger age. Otherwise, I wouldn't have known how to cope with events later in life in addition to adult responsibilities. I'd been an A+ student all my life, and it wasn't until college that I realized I had no routine or organizational skills to fall back on when life got truly hard and I lost motivation; just being "good at school" wasn't enough. I had to develop those skills to 'get over' depression.
• I've been a journalist for nearly a decade, and I read papers (thoroughly) and interact with scientists regularly (even if I don't understand it all and it's not all physics). Having a proper science background would only help in that regard. I could also do the occasional freelance work during grad school to supplement my income. With my experience, I'm not particularly concerned about future employability outside of academia, especially not when I'll have more physics and math under my belt.
• I did take and pass four introductory (but calculus-based) physics classes in college covering mechanics/thermodynamics, E&M, QM, and astrophysics. While 3/4 of those weren't good grades, I should be able to transfer credit to get a head start on some upper-level courses for all of them. Physics-wise, there's nothing available at community college at a higher level than what I've already taken, as far as I can tell.
• My weakness was math, as I only took Calc I. That's what I've spent most of my time rectifying since school (my school didn't actually check prereqs for my later physics courses lol, I just learned as I went along). I'm working through linear algebra and ODEs at the moment, with plans to start PDEs and Real analysis next. I know I would probably still have to finish the classes in school to prove my knowledge. That's fine.
• Taking the GRE's and acing them is indeed the plan; at least the Physics one. To be clear the plan would be to take them in two, maybe three years if I took that route, which would still likely be faster than getting a second bachelors part-time. I'm an excellent test taker in general and tend to perform better under a bit of pressure.
• From what I've read from students at the OU, I don't forsee solid letters of recommendation being a significantly bigger hurdle than letters of recommendation from professors at a local school. I also think I'd be able to achieve a relevant professional recommendation from one or more people with advanced degrees. In any case, the hope is to find a way to do some supervised research before grad school, which I know would be the most relevant recommendation.

Again, I don't mean to underestimate how much work will be involved in making this life switch. Just clarifying that I'm not totally starting from scratch.

It does seem as though I should scrap the third option though =]

Thank you again.

 

[Vanadium 50]

Again, I don't mean to underestimate how much work will be involved

And yet...

Roughly three times as many people take the PGRE as enroll in grad school (used to be closer to 2). You are competing with people who have a more conventional background - and many would say stronger. How do you plan to outperform them on the PGRE?

, I don't forsee solid letters of recommendation being a significantly bigger hurdle

Really? And how many letters have you read?

"He took my class and got an A" is a below average letter. Well below average. It doesn't say anything that isn't in the transcript. Other letters will include comments on lab work, research participation, comments and questions at seminars, possibly comments on TA'ing. How do you plan on out-competing people with letters like that?

Two thirds of physics majors who are at least interested enough in grad school to shell out $350 for the test don't end up going. Your plan is to take a couple of online classes based on a shaky foundation in physics and a shakier foundation in math, and somehow end up in the top third?

Lets look at these numbers: 1/3 get into grad school. About half finish. About 20% of them may get a faculty or national lab research position. That's 3%. That's your target. With these odds, do you think it is wise to skimp on your preparation?

A further point to think about - there may have been a good external reason for not doing well in foundational classes. That doesn't mean when that reason is removed you will now know all that material.

 

[beethovenscroissant]

You bring up good points and I appreciate the frankness.

I feel I may have given the wrong impression that 'Plan 3' was what I was most likely to try. It was a long shot that I realized was unlikely to work. I know I will most likely be completing a second degree before entering any graduate program.

And yet...

Roughly three times as many people take the PGRE as enroll in grad school (used to be closer to 2). You are competing with people who have a more conventional background - and many would say stronger. How do you plan to outperform them on the PGRE?

I plan to outperform them by taking the test when I'm ready to outperform them. I don't intend to get into grad school with less study and than a traditional student.

Really? And how many letters have you read?

"He took my class and got an A" is a below average letter. Well below average. It doesn't say anything that isn't in the transcript. Other letters will include comments on lab work, research participation, comments and questions at seminars, possibly comments on TA'ing. How do you plan on out-competing people with letters like that?

You're right of course. What I should have said is that many OU students do manage to make it into reputable PhD programs and I have seen nothing to indicate they have more trouble than those at other institutions (although most students are in the UK so there's no issue with recognition). You still have lab work to do and a research project and work directly with tutors who can provide more recommendations. But I recognize I may be at a disadvantage with distance learning.

I do believe I'd have strong professional letters of recommendation from relevant people. But again, my priority is finding undergraduate research of my own to participate in for the most relevant recommendations. This is ultimately the area I'd be most concerned about so I'd start that search as early as possible.

Your plan is to take a couple of online classes based on a shaky foundation in physics and a shakier foundation in math, and somehow end up in the top third?

Lets look at these numbers: 1/3 get into grad school. About half finish. About 20% of them may get a faculty or national lab research position. That's 3%. That's your target. With these odds, do you think it is wise to skimp on your preparation?

No skimping. My plans 1 and 2 were to complete a physics Bachelor's and potentially a Master's over the course of 4-8 years, whether online or locally. I would like to skip the introductory classes at this stage because I do technically have the credits and am more confident in the content than I ever was when the credits were "fresh."

---

I appreciate the discussion because it's made me double down on the idea I shouldn't really be rushing anyway -- it's not like getting a Ph.D. faster is going to make that much of a difference at this stage of my life and career.

I suppose my questions have now been reduced to: Do I get the Open U Masters's degree or do I try do it locally? I believe the Open University's program works better for my learning style, but I realize there are some potential disadvantages.

First things first: Although the OU is regionally accredited in the US, they do advise checking with different programs to be sure they would accept the degree/have accepted OU degrees. No harm in emailing around and making sure before I pony up the money. I'll update here when I hear back for those curious.

 

[Vanadium 50]

I admire your optimism.

 

[erobz]

How much money are you going to spend achieving this goal? If you are independently wealthy perhaps it's of no consequence.

Just for some perspective, I graduated with a BSc in Mechanical Engineering Tech. 10 years ago with honors. I was on average 10 years older than the student body then. I've applied that knowledge daily since, and I still struggle to solve some problems that are considered basic in the physics curriculum.

I think you are setting yourself up for failure and another bout of depression by trying to dive into an advance degree in physics before ever taking a physics course.

 

[BWV]

I think you are setting yourself up for failure and disappointment, unless you have a big trust fund, focus on something you can excel at that pays decent money, rather than avoiding the real world by remaining a full time student

Great advice here:

 

[beethovenscroissant]

How much money are you going to spend achieving this goal? If you are independently wealthy perhaps it's of no consequence.

Just for some perspective, I graduated with a BSc in Mechanical Engineering Tech. 10 years ago with honors. I was on average 10 years older than the student body then. I've applied that knowledge daily since, and I still struggle to solve some problems that are considered basic in the physics curriculum.

I think you are setting yourself up for failure and another bout of depression by trying to dive into an advance degree in physics before ever taking a physics course.

I'm not "wealthy" for a HCOL area but comfortable enough that going to a public school or doing the degree online would not a major burden at this stage of my life. Part-time tuition would be under $5000/yr in any of my preferred schools. For comparison, I would be spending significantly more money per year if I decided to buy a used car.

Not sure why you think I would be diving into an advanced degree without ever taking a physics course.

I understand the concern, but really, the worst thing that can happen is that is that I flunk out of second degree and I lose some money on what turned out to be an expensive hobby. I can then laugh at my idiocy and move on with my life.

Edit: Or I get straight A's and still don't get into a graduate program. I still wouldn't be mad at that result.

I think you are setting yourself up for failure and disappointment, unless you have a big trust fund, focus on something you can excel at that pays decent money, rather than avoiding the real world by remaining a full time student

Great advice here:

Again, I've been in the real world for 10 years making decent money doing pretty much exactly what's mentioned in the video. And that's not going to stop while I get my degree.

 

[Vanadium 50]

If you are independently wealthy

What's the best way to end up with a million dollars doing physics?
Start with two million.

 

[StatGuy2000]

@Vanadium 50 , how familiar are you with the Open University in the UK? Certainly there have been many who have graduated from the school and have been able to pursue graduate programs in various programs.

You seem to imply that only brick-and-mortar physics graduates have any kind of shot at physics graduate programs.

You also seem to overrate the hurdles involved in applying to physics graduate programs.

 

[Vanadium 50]

I am saying that brick and mortar has an advantage. A college degree is more than the sum of the classes, particularly at the stronger schools.

I am also saying that the odds start at 1 in 3. Denominator is those interested enough to pay the GRE fee, and numerator is the number who enroll. You don't want to reduce these odds.

 

[erobz]

Not sure why you think I would be diving into an advanced degree without ever taking a physics course.

Because I thought I read that you have a BA in philosophy, and you wanted to apply to a Master's program (or higher) in Physics?

 

[hutchphd]

I am acquainted with and do not minimize the effects of clinical depression, so this is not a an ignorant question. You say you graduated from your Ivy League school, presumably after being treated for your depression. Why did you not get your degree in physics when you graduated?

 

[beethovenscroissant]

Because I thought I read that you have a BA in philosophy, and you wanted to apply to a Master's program (or higher) in Physics?

I realize my posts were long so I don't blame you, but as I clarified later in the thread, that was my long(er)shot strategy. I asked in case there was chance I would be able to get into grad school faster if, in theory, I could get fantastic GRE scores through self study and take a few upper-level courses as a non-degree student to show competency. But it's increasingly evident that even if I did manage manage to get great GRE scores after a few more years of self study, I'm better off taking my time and working through the entire physics undergraduate degree.

If you're referring to my mentioning the Masters at Open University, that's a different thing. It's an integrated masters that essentially adds a other year or two to the bachelor's and does not have admissions requirements.

I am acquainted with and do not minimize the effects of clinical depression, so this is not a an ignorant question. You say you graduated from your Ivy League school, presumably after being treated for your depression. Why did you not get your degree in physics when you graduated?

Thank you for understanding. I'm not sure if the question is why I didn't get my degree in physics at graduation, or why I didn't go back to school for physics immediately after graduating.

If the former, I abandoned the physics major after my sophomore year.

If the latter, at that point I thought it more important to get a job. I was not, in fact, a trust fund baby

 

[vela]

I did take and pass four introductory (but calculus-based) physics classes in college covering mechanics/thermodynamics, E&M, QM, and astrophysics. While 3/4 of those weren't good grades, I should be able to transfer credit to get a head start on some upper-level courses for all of them. Physics-wise, there's nothing available at community college at a higher level than what I've already taken, as far as I can tell.

How long ago did you take these classes? It may not end up mattering as the material in intro physics hasn't changed, but some schools might not give you credit for courses taken too long ago.

Taking the GRE's and acing them is indeed the plan; at least the Physics one. To be clear the plan would be to take them in two, maybe three years if I took that route, which would still likely be faster than getting a second bachelors part-time. I'm an excellent test taker in general and tend to perform better under a bit of pressure.

Just because you do well on the PGRE doesn't mean you're necessarily prepared for grad school. If you have a really good understanding of the concepts in introductory physics, you can actually do really well on the majority of the PGRE. But to do well in grad school, you need to master the material at a much higher level.

How well do you know the material from intro physics? You mentioned you didn't get good grades but didn't feel it reflected your ability. But if you got poor grades, that would suggest you likely didn't learn the material well. If that's the case, you'll have to come up to speed quickly in your junior and senior level courses.

If your ultimate goal is a Ph.D., don't bother with the master's programs. Go straight for the Ph.D. If it doesn't work out, you can probably leave with a terminal master's.

Have you considered committing to go to school full time? Once you have the lower-division stuff out of the way, which it sounds like you have except perhaps for math, it would take about two years of classes to earn a BS in physics. The main thing I'd want to avoid is having the process drag out into 4 or 5+ years before you're even ready to apply for graduate schools.

I'm not at all familiar with OU, but I do know that online courses aren't for everybody. At this point in your life, I'll assume you're a fairly experienced learner, so perhaps online courses can work for you. But there's definitely a difference between in-person and remote classes. Don't discount the social interaction part of the learning process too much.

 

[beethovenscroissant]

How long ago did you take these classes? It may not end up mattering as the material in intro physics hasn't changed, but some schools might not give you credit for courses taken too long ago.

It will have been 12-13 since completed the classes themselves . The credits would transfer to the OU (16-year limit), but I will reach out to local schools to ask. They don't mention time limits online and that has been a concern so thanks for pointing that out.

Just because you do well on the PGRE doesn't mean you're necessarily prepared for grad school. If you have a really good understanding of the concepts in introductory physics, you can actually do really well on the majority of the PGRE. But to do well in grad school, you need to master the material at a much higher level.

How well do you know the material from intro physics? You mentioned you didn't get good grades but didn't feel it reflected your ability. But if you got poor grades, that would suggest you likely didn't learn the material well. If that's the case, you'll have to come up to speed quickly in your junior and senior level courses.

If your ultimate goal is a Ph.D., don't bother with the master's programs. Go straight for the Ph.D. If it doesn't work out, you can probably leave with a terminal master's.

Have you considered committing to go to school full time? Once you have the lower-division stuff out of the way, which it sounds like you have except perhaps for math, it would take about two years of classes to earn a BS in physics. The main thing I'd want to avoid is having the process drag out into 4 or 5+ years before you're even ready to apply for graduate schools.

I'm not at all familiar with OU, but I do know that online courses aren't for everybody. At this point in your life, I'll assume you're a fairly experienced learner, so perhaps online courses can work for you. But there's definitely a difference between in-person and remote classes. Don't discount the social interaction part of the learning process too much.

I have in the past few years reread(or really, just actually read) my physics and math books, bought some new ones and solved more problems from them than I ever attempted in school. So the knowledge is fresh. It has become a bit of a hobby and I treat problem solving a bit like some people treat crossword puzzles or games. I even got a folding phone for the sole purpose of being able to read and solve problems on the go, another wild idea of mine which actually turned out to be one of the best learning decisions I've made.

I have considered going full time, but I'm not sure it would be feasible with work unless I do go the fully remote route. One option I considered is trying to do full-time for the first year and doing part time for the latter (and presumably, more difficult, especially) classes. Alternatively, I could have a heavier part-time course load. For example, OU considers 60 credits part-time (credits work differently than in the US) and 120 full time, but I could also do 90 and see how that works out to start.

I might be able to work out a heavy part-time courseload with in person classes but I need to spend some time figuring that out given the limited hours of various classes.

I am leaning more towards the bachelors, but the advantage to the OU's masters is the integrated research component and more flexibility in course selection. But if my goal is to try and find IRL research opportunities anyways, that might not be such a big deal.

Thank you for the advice. It would certainly be appealing to finish sooner.

 

[BWV]

Isnt trying to become a physicist 10 years out of school analogous to a 25 year old casual player who took lessons as a kid deciding to be a concert pianist? You will be so far behind so many equal or more talented people there is no hope of competing with them for any opportunities.

 

[MidgetDwarf]

Isnt trying to become a physicist 10 years out of school analogous to a 25 year old casual player who took lessons as a kid deciding to be a concert pianist? You will be so far behind so many equal or more talented people there is no hope of competing with them for any opportunities

True in a sense. However there are anomalies. The benefit is that the OP has a college degree already, and does well in his line of work. So he has a safety net. Something many people do not have.

It is possible to get a degree, depending on how much work/time/commitment one is willing to put in. Barring health/metal/physical limitations (these make it much harder). I was older when I attended school, got a BS (28) and worked for a few years. Purchased and payed off of a home. Currently, I am in a terminal MS Math (pure). Due to financial obligations as a head of house hold, investing 5-7 years in a PhD program was not feasible. Will do so, once I work an extra 2 or 3 years after my MS.

The difference between me and OP, is that a had an undergrad degree in Mathematics, with a few classes short of a physics BS. I was able to get into top 20-40 for a PhD in either math and physics. Chose not to do so. It is doable. But realistic expectations are key.

@OP. Someone offered a valuable piece of advice, and which you glossed over. Many people think majoring in Physics is cool because of all the POP Sci, but once they take a class or two, the novelty runs out. A member suggested enrolling at a local community college, and taking some intro physics courses. This is sound advice, as it let's you test the waters, while you consider your choices moving forward. Moreover, you could always go to a state school after taking remediation courses, and go part time. You most likely will not have to take the general education courses. Look into Post Baccularete programs. If the school does not offer it, inquire if you skip some of GE courses.

Moreover, why would you jump into a masters program without even having some sort of STEM background? I think you may be overestimating your intelligence... Heck even people in stem find it difficult to switch between different fields.

 

[beethovenscroissant]

Isnt trying to become a physicist 10 years out of school analogous to a 25 year old casual player who took lessons as a kid deciding to be a concert pianist? You will be so far behind so many equal or more talented people there is no hope of competing with them for any opportunities.

Funnily enough learning piano from scratch as an adult is part of what made this all seem feasible and how I know I can budget the time for it.

I don't think it's really analogous though. I would be far from the first old guy to earn a PhD. Most people don't start learning physics until their late teens. You really need to start piano as a young child to be a concert pianist with exceedingly few exceptions.

Nor are my goals so exclusive. I want to be clear that although making a career out of research is the ultimate dream, but I'd still be happy in the likelihood that doesn't happen.

If I get a Bachelor's out of this, that's a success. I'd have something to show for my study (as opposed to self studying and not having it be recognized by anyone). It opens up myriad more career options, even within my current career path. A lot of writing jobs ask/prefer a STEM degree, and that's the type of writing I want to do more of anyway. And no matter how much my brain may have degraded over the past decade, I really don't see any reason why getting at least a bachelor's is out of the realm of possibility.

If I can get into a PhD program, that's even better. And if I get to make a career in physics, best. But if I stop at the bachelor's I'll still have considered the move worthwhile.

True in a sense. However there are anomalies. The benefit is that the OP has a college degree already, and does well in his line of work. So he has a safety net. Something many people do not have.

It is possible to get a degree, depending on how much work/time/commitment one is willing to put in. Barring health/metal/physical limitations (these make it much harder). I was older when I attended school, got a BS (28) and worked for a few years. Purchased and payed off of a home. Currently, I am in a terminal MS Math (pure). Due to financial obligations as a head of house hold, investing 5-7 years in a PhD program was not feasible. Will do so, once I work an extra 2 or 3 years after my MS.

The difference between me and OP, is that a had an undergrad degree in Mathematics, with a few classes short of a physics BS. I was able to get into top 20-40 for a PhD in either math and physics. Chose not to do so. It is doable. But realistic expectations are key.

@OP. Someone offered a valuable piece of advice, and which you glossed over. Many people think majoring in Physics is cool because of all the POP Sci, but once they take a class or two, the novelty runs out. A member suggested enrolling at a local community college, and taking some intro physics courses. This is sound advice, as it let's you test the waters, while you consider your choices moving forward. Moreover, you could always go to a state school after taking remediation courses, and go part time. You most likely will not have to take the general education courses. Look into Post Baccularete programs. If the school does not offer it, inquire if you skip some of GE courses.

Moreover, why would you jump into a masters program without even having some sort of STEM background? I think you may be overestimating your intelligence... Heck even people in stem find it difficult to switch between different fields.

Thank you for the thoughtful post. I would change my original post if I could, as it's come up a few times, but I've scrapped the idea of trying to get into a master's program. The OU is excepted because it is an integrated masters as is seemingly common in the UK.

I also mentioned earlier I have taken four introductory physics classes - I even got an A in one. So I do have a basic idea of what physics is like at an early level, and I wouldn't be able to earn more credits at the community college level except for maybe some one or two classes.

There is an argument to be made for taking intro classes again, especially as I would almost certainly need to do the calculus sequence before I could advance to upper level classes anyway. But considering I have been reviewing the material, I currently feel my time and money is likely better served with more math and/or trying to progress to higher level physics classes as soon as possible.