I Copenhagen Interpretation vs Pilot Waves

  • #31
vanhees71 said:
it was split off as a subforum to be able to discuss freely about metaphysical implications
No, it was split off as a subforum to discuss QM interpretations. As you will see from the forum guidelines, that still requires some basis in the literature; it is not open season to discuss whatever metaphysical speculations people can dream up.

vanhees71 said:
and keeping the scientific QT forum free from it
Keeping that forum free from QM interpretation discussions, yes.
 
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  • #32
vanhees71 said:
What other purpose can a discussion about interpretations have than to figure out which one is the most useful one?
Such a discussion is pointless because it is a matter of personal opinion and cannot be resolved. That's why the forum guidelines for this subforum specifically prohibit claims of this sort.

The purpose of this forum is to help people improve their understanding of what the various QM interpretations actually say. Just as the purpose of PF in general is to help people improve their understanding of what mainstream science actually says.
 
  • #33
apostolosdt said:
I went through that paper of yours; I found Section 4.3 a bit daring. In just thirty lines, you manage to reject relativity as one fundamental pillar of contemporary physics and suggest that some nonrelativistist QM theory underlying QFT predicts BSM-like particles to be discovered in the future at CERN. Really?
Well, it's quite generally accepted in the community that all contemporary theories are just effective theories that one day will be replaced by better theories. All BSM theories dare to say something about possible features of these future theories. In comparison with some other BSM theories, I would say that condensed-matter style theories in which relativity is emergent are rather conservative. If you just want more than thirty lines about such theories, I have cited two related books. If you are against all this business of BSM theories in general, I can understand that as well, but in that case it would be fair from your side to say so.
 
  • #34
vanhees71 said:
Then I don't understand the purpose of this subforum at all.
Exactly, you don't understand it. Please leave it to us who do understand it.
 
  • #35
vanhees71 said:
My argument against BM is just Occam's razor: Why should one introduce theoretical balast, which doesn't add anything to the physics content of the theory.
its not what it adds, it what it doesnt add - problems. Copenhagen has the measurement problem. Why live with that when you can have a problem free interpretation? Your model should be as simple as possible and no simpler.

Further it explains the uncertainty. Copenhagen and MWI introduce a 'god' of randomness. its not easy to create an RNG. it requires energy and structure. its like when creationists say god created the universe - its a form of hidden complexity. so arguing CI and MWI are simpler is not a given.

the only problem ive found with PW, so far is that its not well researched, which is a human problem not a theory problem. oh plus the non-local thing, but all interpretations should be non-local because we all know about entanglement. maybe i havent understood why CI and MWI are 'local' as that would violate bell.
 
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  • #36
lukephysics said:
its not what it adds, it what it doesnt add - problems. Copenhagen has the measurement problem. Why live with that when you can have a problem free interpretation? Your model should be as simple as possible and no simpler.
But also BM and any other interpretation of QT has a measurement problem, if you think there is one. If I understand the philosophers right, their problem is that they think it's not understood, which outcome a measurement on a single quantum system will have, knowing the state (even if it's complete knowledge, i.e., if the system is prepared in a known pure state).

They exspect that the dynamics of the theory explains, why this state through interaction with a measurement apparatus "collapses" to the eigenstate of the operator that represents the measured observable. That's however in contradiction to the standard version of QT, because unitary time evolution does not lead to such a dynamics. Rather you still have a superposition of entangled states of the measured system and the pointer states of the measurement device. There are two ways out:

(a) One accepts that Nature is inherently random and that the outcome of measurements are thus irreducibly probabilistic. All QT delivers are the probabilities for the outcomes of measurements, and there is nothing more in Nature. That's the minimal statistical interpretation. There's no collapse, the quantum state is purely epistemic. For me that's the most plausible solution of the measurement problem, which is only apparent. It's just a problem for our worldview, which is due to everyday experience with macroscopic systems, whose relevant macroscopic observables behave according to classical physics with determinism as an emergent, approximate phenomenon. All observations and high-precision tests of QT in very many manifestations are consistent with this assumption.

(b) Nevertheless, that's indeed only an educated belief, founded on the overwhelming success and lack of failure of (minimally interpreted) QT. It cannot be ruled out, of course, that maybe QT is nevertheless incomplete, and then QT has to be modified, maybe in such a way that there's an inherent collapse mechanism in the dynamics. What's for sure ruled out is naive EPR "Local Realism". This is the great achievement of Bell's theoretical and Clauser's, Aspect's, et al's experimental work.
lukephysics said:
Further it explains the uncertainty. Copenhagen and MWI introduce a 'god' of randomness. its not easy to create an RNG. it requires energy and structure. its like when creationists say god created the universe - its a form of hidden complexity. so arguing CI and MWI are simpler is not a given.
What's an RNG? Also one has to accept how Nature is found to behave. Whether there's a god who created the universe the way it looks, is not a question that can decided by the pure sciences. That's a matter of private belief for any individual.

For me CI is inconsistent. Even the versions, which do not assume a collapse (e.g., Bohr's as well as Heisenberg's version, as far as I can guess from their enigmatic philosophical writings), there's still the "quantum-classical cut", which in no way could be hitherto observed. To the contrary with more and more refined metrology bigger and bigger systems can be shown to behave according to QT (e.g., the motions of the LIGO mirrors, sevel 10kg objects, behave quantum theoretical and show "zero-point motion" of quantum oscillators).

I'm not sure about MWI. On the one hand they claim that there's nothing than unitary time evolution and the "wave function of the universe" is all there is. On the other hand, for the application of QT, again I have to assume Born's rule for subsystems as in standard QT. I don't know, what's gained with MWI compared to the minimal interpretation.
lukephysics said:
the only problem ive found with PW, so far is that its not well researched, which is a human problem not a theory problem. oh plus the non-local thing, but all interpretations should be non-local because we all know about entanglement. maybe i havent understood why CI and MWI are 'local' as that would violate bell.
I guess with PW you mean "pilot wave", i.e., de Broglie-Bohm. Within non-relativistic theory it's a consistent mathematical addition to standard QT, but it's not solving any "measurement problems" either. Particles do not follow Bohmian trajectories but behave probabilistically as predicted by standard QT. All attempts to extend the Bohmian program to relativstic QT I'm aware of are even less convincing, violating in the one or the other way Poincare covariance, i.e., they are not relativstic at the end.
 
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  • #37
Demystifier said:
Exactly, you don't understand it. Please leave it to us who do understand it.
Why? Because it's more convenient to have a skeptic less? ;-)).
 
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  • #38
vanhees71 said:
Why? Because it's more convenient to have a skeptic less? ;-)).
No, to attract ten skeptics more who would like to take part in a constructive criticism.
 
  • #39
PeterDonis said:
No, I am just reminding you what the interpretations subforum is for and what it is not for. It is not for claiming that any interpretation is either right or wrong. You are basically claming that a particular interpretation is wrong. That is off limits in this subforum by the PF rules. […] This discussion was had some time ago in the SA forum, before the intepretations subforum was spun off. It is off topic here. If you really want to make a case for the interpretations subforum being shut down, please do so in a thread in the SA forum.
My bad; I’m going to remind myself to avoid this particular sub-forum, for I don’t care about philosophical arguments about physics. I think it’s fair for both vivid practitioners of QM interpretations and plain physicists like me.

It’s only ironic that Feynman’s name is being cited in a philoZophical sub-forum.
 
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  • #41
This once more ignores the fact that standard relativistic QFT is local.
 
  • #42
vanhees71 said:
.... One accepts that Nature is inherently random and that the outcome of measurements are thus irreducibly probabilistic. All QT delivers are the probabilities for the outcomes of measurements, and there is nothing more in Nature....
To my mind, Max Born/1/ hit the nail on the head when he wrote:

“A more concrete contribution to this question has been made by J. v. Neumann in his brilliant book, Mathematische Grundlagen der Quantenmechanik. He puts the theory on an axiomatic basis by deriving it from a few postulates of a very plausible and general character, about the properties of 'expectation values' (averages) and their representation by mathematical symbols. The result is that the formalism of quantum mechanics is uniquely determined by these axioms; in particular, no concealed parameters can be introduced with the help of which the indeterministic description could be transformed into a deterministic one. Hence if a future theory should be deterministic, it cannot be a modification of the present one but must be essentially different. How this should be possible without sacrificing a whole treasure of well-established results I leave to the determinists to worry about.

I for my part do not believe in the possibility of such a turn of things. Though I am very much aware of the shortcomings of quantum mechanics, I think that its indeterministic foundations will be permanent, and this is what interests us from the standpoint of these lectures on cause and chance. There remains now only to show how the ordinary, apparently deterministic laws of physics can be obtained from these foundations.”

/1/ Max Born, Natural Philosophy of Cause and Chance (Clarendon, Oxford, 1949)
 
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  • #43
gentzen said:
Basically, all the randomness is encoded in the initial conditions.....
Lord Jestocost said:
So what?

Chaos Theory: Because we can never know all the initial conditions of a complex system!

The “in principle knowable unknowns” are grounded in epistemology alone.
Oh sorry, I thought you had a technical question about BM. Good to know that at least I don't have to spend the time to find the technical details again.

The answer was more ment to explain that even in BM, the randomness is still irreducable (or at least could still be irreducable, dependent on the technical details). Not because we cannot know the initial conditions of a complex system, but because we cannot know a real number exactly, and hence not know exactly a set of real numbers describing the initial conditions either.
 
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  • #45
After moderator review, the thread will remain closed. Thanks to all who participated.
 
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