Curl from requiring invariance under inertial coordinate changes

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the mathematical concept of curl in the context of first order differential operators and their invariance under transformations such as translations and rotations. Participants explore the implications of these invariances and the conditions that define the curl operator, engaging in technical reasoning and derivations.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant seeks clarification on the nature of first order differential operators, questioning if they are merely combinations of first order partial derivatives.
  • Another participant provides a more detailed definition of first order differential operators, emphasizing that they are vector-valued and involve specific coefficients that depend on the coordinates.
  • Discussion includes how to test for invariance under translations, with a focus on the implications of constant coefficients across all coordinates.
  • Participants explore the complexity of defining invariance under rotations, with one suggesting that invariance under all rotations can be simplified to invariance under a subset of right-handed rotations.
  • One participant derives conditions for coefficients of the differential operator based on invariance under rotations, leading to two potential solutions, one of which corresponds to the curl operator.
  • Another participant requests further resources to understand the concept of infinitesimal rotations and their relation to the differential operator.
  • Further resources are shared, including a link to a chapter on infinitesimal symmetries and a book recommendation for deeper study.
  • Discussion touches on the relationship between infinitesimal rotations and the commutation of operators, with references to advanced mathematical concepts.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express varying degrees of understanding and interpretation of the concepts discussed, with no clear consensus on the definitions and implications of the differential operators and their invariance properties.

Contextual Notes

Some participants note the complexity of the transformations and the need for careful consideration of the coefficients involved in the differential operators. The discussion remains open-ended regarding the implications of the derived conditions.

powerof
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While investigating about the curl I have found this interesting perspective:

http://mathoverflow.net/a/21908/69479

I lack the knowledge to do the derivation on my own so I would like to ask for your help. I am an undergraduate.

I do not understand what a "first order differential operator" looks like. Is it just a combination of first order partial derivatives, like \sum c_i \frac{\partial}{\partial x_i}\vec{e}_i (c_i are generic constants)? I do not know either how to check whether my operator commutes with translations and rotations in order to see that "it is a multiple of curl".

If this is submitted to the wrong section I apologize.

Thank you for your time.
 
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The first order differential operators aren't exactly what you put. The author of that post didn't mention that his D operator has to be a vector-valued first order differential operator on vector-valued arguments, so it's more like ## D|_{(x,y,z)}[\vec{A}] = \sum_{i,j,k}^{3} c_{ijk}(x,y,z) \vec{e}_{i} \frac{\partial}{\partial x_{j}} A_{k}(x,y,z) ##.

To test for invariance under translations and rotations, you have to first write how each affects the coordinates and basis vectors.

For translations: ## (x,y,z) \to (x+\epsilon, y, z) ## (it doesn't matter which direction the displacement is in, because I haven't specified what direction x is)
##D|_{(x,y,z)} \to D|_{(x+\epsilon,y,z)}## which implies that ##c_{ijk}(x,y,z) = c_{ijk}(x+\epsilon,y,z)## for all values of ##\epsilon##, or in other words that ##c_{ijk}## is a constant for all x. Since you can repeat this for y and z, you know that ##c_{ijk}## have to be constant for all (x,y,z).

For rotations: The general formula for rotations about any axis is a pain to work with, but we can say that if D is invariant under all rotations then D is invariant under the subset of right-handed rotations through 90 degrees. (This is, in fact, equivalent to saying the D is invariant under the action of infinitesimal rotations, but conceptually simpler).

##Case 1: (x,y,z) \to (-y, x, z) = (x',y',z')##
##(\frac{\partial}{\partial x},\frac{\partial}{\partial y}, \frac{\partial}{\partial z}) \to ( - \frac{\partial}{\partial y}, \frac{\partial}{\partial x}, \frac{\partial}{\partial z}) ##
##(A_{x}, A_{y}, A_{z}) \to (-A_{y}, A_{x}, A_{z})##
##D[\vec{A}] = \sum_{i,j.k=1}^3 \vec{e}_{i} \frac{\partial}{\partial x_{j}} A_{k} = \sum_{i,j.k=1}^3 \vec{e}_{i} \frac{\partial}{\partial x'_{j}} A_{k} ##
From this we obtain, ## c_{311} \frac{\partial}{\partial x} A_{x} + c_{312} \frac{\partial}{\partial x}A_{y} + c_{321} \frac{\partial}{\partial y} A_{x} + c_{322} \frac{\partial}{\partial y} A_{y} = (-1)^{2} c_{311} \frac{\partial}{\partial y} A_{y} + (-1) c_{312} \frac{\partial}{\partial y}A_{x} + (-1) c_{321} \frac{\partial}{\partial x} A_{y} + c_{322} \frac{\partial}{\partial x} A_{x} ##
And finally we get
## (c_{311} - c_{322}) (\frac{\partial}{\partial x}A_{x} - \frac{\partial}{\partial y}A_{y}) + (c_{312} + c_{321}) (\frac{\partial}{\partial x}A_{y}) + (c_{321} + c_{312}) (\frac{\partial}{\partial y}A_{x}) = 0##
Since each of the bracketed combinations of the partials of ##\vec{A}## are arbitrary smooth functions, the only way to solve this equation is if all the scalar coefficients (the parenthesized terms with the c's in them) are equal to 0. There are exactly 2 non-trivial normalized solutions for the coefficients:
Solution 1: ##c_{311} = c_{322} = 1##, ##c_{312} = c_{321} = 0##. (The sum of like partial derivatives of the x and y components of A, i.e. the 2D divergence of A restricted to the z-plane)
Solution 2: ##c_{311} = c_{322} = 0##, ##c_{312} = -c_{321} = 1##. (The difference of unlike partial derivatives of the x and y components of A, i.e. the z-component of the curl of A)

You don't really need to compute the conditions on ##c_{ijk}## for invariance under rotations in the x or y planes to see that only Solution 2 is invariant under general 3D rotations. Solution 1 is the ordinary 2D divergence for the values of A on points in the z-plane. It clearly won't be invariant under rotations about the x or y axes. You don't even need to repeat the derivation to see what solution 2 will look like for each set of rotations, you can just use the cyclic substitution property to see that ##c_{ijk}## has to be the Levi-Civita symbol (the coefficients of curl).
 
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Twigg said:
(This is, in fact, equivalent to saying the D is invariant under the action of infinitesimal rotations, but conceptually simpler).
Can you expand on this or give me some resources to study on my own? Thank you.
 
Apologies for the late reply.

I only skimmed through this, but it seems to cover the essentials.
http://www.cmth.ph.ic.ac.uk/people/d.vvedensky/groups/Chapter7.pdf

I learned the mechanics of infinitesimal symmetries primarily from a book by Peter J. Olver, "Applications of Lie Groups to Partial Differential Equations." Here's a Springer link with all the information, but unfortunately it's not free. If you're an undergraduate, you should see if it's in your school library.
http://link.springer.com/book/10.1007/978-1-4684-0274-2
 
Twigg said:
For rotations: The general formula for rotations about any axis is a pain to work with, but we can say that if D is invariant under all rotations then D is invariant under the subset of right-handed rotations through 90 degrees. (This is, in fact, equivalent to saying the D is invariant under the action of infinitesimal rotations, but conceptually simpler).

If you were to go through the trouble of stating the full transformation for rotation about the z-axis, you'd get ##(x',y',z') = (xcos\theta - ysin\theta, xsin\theta + ycos\theta, z)##. If you take a first-order Taylor series for sine and cosine with respect to the rotation angle theta, you'd get ##(x',y',z') = (x - \theta y, y + \theta x, z)##, which is just ##(x',y',z') = (x,y,z) + \theta * (-y, x, 0)##. We call the second term, the ##(-y,x,0)## an infinitesimal rotation of the point ##(x,y,z)##, in the same sort of way that we think of a velocity as a tiny displacement in a tiny amount of time (ish). Notice that this infinitesimal rotation is effectively the same as the 90 degree rotation I introduced in my original proof, except for the z-component, which I canceled on both sides of the equation for the ##c_{ijk}##'s anyways. Applying the infinitesimal rotation to D on A and applying D to the infinitesimal rotation on A and equating them is effectively the same as what I did above. If you want to get really fancy, you can state this same idea by saying that the commutator of D and the infinitesimal rotation is 0. This is the same as saying that D is a constant along integral curves of the infinitesimal rotation operator. (It's not obvious that the infinitesimal rotation is a partial differential operator, because my discussion here is semi-formal. See Olver chapter 1 for the general treatment. That chapter also explains well why the commutator tells you how one operator varies with respect to another.)
 

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