Discrepancy in force of friction in a problem

AI Thread Summary
The discussion centers around a physics problem involving a 5.0 kg block pushed at a constant speed across a ceiling, with discrepancies noted in calculating the force of friction. Participants highlight that the problem appears overspecified and inconsistent, as different methods yield varying frictional force values. The angle of the applied force and the coefficient of friction lead to confusion, with some suggesting that the problem's parameters contradict each other. There is a consensus that the constant speed condition complicates the scenario, implying that either additional forces are at play or the problem is fundamentally flawed. Ultimately, the participants agree that the problem lacks clarity and may not align with typical gravitational assumptions.
fredrogers3
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Homework Statement


Here is the problem: A student pushes a 5.0 kg block at a constant speed 3 m across the ceiling of
her room using a force Fa
of magnitude 85 N and angle 75º. The coefficient of
kinetic friction between the block and the ceiling is 0.40.
Now, we must find the work done by the frictional force.

Homework Equations


My Newton Second Laws:
F, total,x direction= Facosθ-forcefriction=0
F, total, y direction=-Fn-mg+Fasinθ=0

The Attempt at a Solution


When I solve for the force of friction, my answer comes out different depending on how I solve it. For instance, if I use my x direction relations, I would get forcefriction=facosθ. Thus, forcefriction would be 85cos75= 21.9996
If I solve the y eqn for fn, I get a normal force of 33.1. This multiplied by the kinetic constant (.4) is not 21.9996. What is causing the differences here in the friction forces?
 
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You can't find the work done. You can only find the power dissipated by friction.

What is the net vertical force F pushing the block up against the ceiling?

Then how is power related to F, μk and the velocity?
 
The problem appears to be overspecified, i.e. the given data are contradictory. I tried taking 75 degrees as the angle to the vertical, but it made it worse.
 
rude man said:
You can't find the work done. You can only find the power dissipated by friction.

What is the net vertical force F pushing the block up against the ceiling?

Then how is power related to F, μk and the velocity?

It says the block is pushed 3 m at a constant speed, not at a constant speed of 3 m/s.
 
fredrogers3 said:
What is causing the differences here in the friction forces?
Looks like the information in the problem statement is inconsistent.
 
haruspex said:
The problem appears to be overspecified, i.e. the given data are contradictory. I tried taking 75 degrees as the angle to the vertical, but it made it worse.

So are you saying that the force of friction could have different values based on how one solves the equations?
 
haruspex said:
It says the block is pushed 3 m at a constant speed, not at a constant speed of 3 m/s.

Oh yeh. Thanks.
 
haruspex said:
The problem appears to be overspecified, i.e. the given data are contradictory. I tried taking 75 degrees as the angle to the vertical, but it made it worse.

I agree. Either the box doesn't touch the ceiling or there is not enough force left to push the box. Plus there is the overspecification problem on top of that ... ay ay ay!
 
fredrogers3 said:
So are you saying that the force of friction could have different values based on how one solves the equations?

If the force was properly defined then the coeff. of friction would ensue. You can't define the "push" (horizontal) force and also specify the mass along with the friction coeff.
 
  • #10
fredrogers3 said:
So are you saying that the force of friction could have different values based on how one solves the equations?
I'm saying the information provided is internally inconsistent. The answer you get will depend on which piece of information you ignore. E.g. if you ignore the given coefficient of friction then you can calculate it from the other data (and it won't be 0.4). Or you could ignore the magnitude of the force, or the angle of the force, or the mass of the block...
Ah - there is just one possibility. Maybe this isn't in the usual 9.81m/s2 gravity!
 
  • #11
Do you by any chance have professor Brown at NIU as your instructor? Working on this problem set too, and I'm stumped by the last problem (the one where it asks for the smallest angle she can push before the block falls), and stumbled upon this. That's definitely troubling that the problem is written badly (what a surprise), and can be interpreted multiple ways. When I solved for the frictional force, I solved for the normal force first (using the y equation), then plugged that into the equation for friction, and ended up getting a frictional force of around 13N. Have you figured out the last problem yet?
 
  • #12
Aigik said:
Do you by any chance have professor Brown at NIU as your instructor? Working on this problem set too, and I'm stumped by the last problem (the one where it asks for the smallest angle she can push before the block falls), and stumbled upon this. That's definitely troubling that the problem is written badly (what a surprise), and can be interpreted multiple ways. When I solved for the frictional force, I solved for the normal force first (using the y equation), then plugged that into the equation for friction, and ended up getting a frictional force of around 13N. Have you figured out the last problem yet?

I am in Professor Brown's class! I got the same frictional force that you got, but it did seem strange that solving for the frictional force in the other equation gave a different answer. Either way, I think for the last part, you have to assume that the the normal force must always be greater than zero in order to solve for theta.
 
  • #13
fredrogers3 said:

Homework Statement


Here is the problem: A student pushes a 5.0 kg block at a constant speed 3 m across the ceiling of her room using a force F a of magnitude 85 N and angle 75º. The coefficient of kinetic friction between the block and the ceiling is 0.40.
Now, we must find the work done by the frictional force.

Homework Equations


My Newton Second Laws:
F, total,x direction= Facosθ-forcefriction=0
F, total, y direction=-Fn-mg+Fasinθ=0

The Attempt at a Solution


When I solve for the force of friction, my answer comes out different depending on how I solve it. For instance, if I use my x direction relations, I would get forcefriction=facosθ. Thus, forcefriction would be 85cos75= 21.9996
If I solve the y eqn for fn, I get a normal force of 33.1. This multiplied by the kinetic constant (.4) is not 21.9996. What is causing the differences here in the friction forces?
Is the angle of 75° with respect to the [STRIKE]vertical[/STRIKE] horizontal ?

If so, I don't see a discrepancy, except that the horizontal component of force, Fa, is greater than the force of friction. If those are the only forces involved, then the block would accelerate and not move at a constant speed. If there is some other force, then the problem is fine.

Added in Edit:
I meant to say horizontal rather than vertical . DUH !
 
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  • #14
SammyS said:
Is the angle of 75° with respect to the vertical ?

If so, I don't see a discrepancy, except that the horizontal component of force, Fa, is greater than the force of friction. If those are the only forces involved, then the block would accelerate and not move at a constant speed. If there is some other force, then the problem is fine.

The angle of 75 degrees is with respect to the horizontal.
 
  • #15
SammyS said:
If those are the only forces involved, then the block would accelerate and not move at a constant speed.
It seems fair to assume that all relevant forces are mentioned, and it does say constant speed. Therefore I still see it as inconsistent.
 
  • #16
Aigik said:
The angle of 75 degrees is with respect to the horizontal.

Yes, the problem as stated is impossible.

OK, so of the 85N, sin(75)*85 goes to push up. That's 82N of vertical up-push. Subtract the weight of the box, you get 82 - 49 = 33 lbs net up-push. So horizontal force needed to set the box in motion is 33*0.4 = 13N but the 85N's horizontal component is 85*cos(75) = 22N. So either the angle had to be greater than 75 deg or the coeff of friction has to be greater.
 
  • #17
haruspex said:
It seems fair to assume that all relevant forces are mentioned, and it does say constant speed. Therefore I still see it as inconsistent.
Well, I suppose that makes sense. If one considers that there is some unmentioned force present, it would need to be horizontal in order to solve the problem -- not really a reasonable assumption.

If the problem had not stated the the speed was constant, it would have been fine.
 
  • #18
SammyS said:
Well, I suppose that makes sense. If one considers that there is some unmentioned force present, it would need to be horizontal in order to solve the problem -- not really a reasonable assumption.

If the problem had not stated the the speed was constant, it would have been fine.

OTOH, as I posted, there is one way to make it consistent - don't assume the gravitational field is as at Earth's surface. Maybe it's on the moon.
 

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