name123
- 510
- 5
Yes, the topic is a physics theory. So I am discussing it on a physics forum to see if there was a known problem with it. If there isn't then it is of philosophical interest.
You have already been given explanations why it (the theory) makes no sense. What more do you need?name123 said:Yes, the topic is a physics theory. So I am discussing it on a physics forum to see if there was a known problem with it. If there isn't then it is of philosophical interest.
First, direct quotes should always be specifically attributed. That is completely standard in all scholarly fields, not just here on PF.name123 said:So regardless of whether a person writes papers for journals which you count as acceptable, and thus is a presumably trusted author, you seem to be saying that nothing they have written other than what was in the papers in those journals can be quoted.
That is not what I was asking. I was asking for the specific sources of the specific quotes and figures that you were spamming.name123 said:The author I was quoting, has written the following papers on this topic, in the following journals that are listed in Clarivate Master
Note that these two statements are incompatible with each other. You cannot have an absolute spacetime and then allow objects to be assumed to be at rest by convention. An absolute spacetime means that being at rest is not a matter of convention. This is further strengthened by the author’s own description of the meaning they attribute to the term.name123 said:an absolute Euclidean spacetime does not bear such odd properties … By convention one object is assumed to be at rest
The odd properties comment that was one of the statements was regards to nonlocality and non-causality.Dale said:Note that these two statements are incompatible with each other. You cannot have an absolute spacetime and then allow objects to be assumed to be at rest by convention. An absolute spacetime means that being at rest is not a matter of convention.
The full theory might include some rewriting of the math of standard GR. I don't have access to the paywalled papers so I can only go by what you are posting in this thread and the abstracts I can read. My opinion based on those is that it is re-writing standard math plus physical claims that are just the author's unsupported opinion and cannot be justified by the math.name123 said:It isn't just re-writing the math of standard SR because as you can see from the list of papers above one is called "General relativity in an absolute Euclidean space-time".
Most of these links just go to the author's profile on researchgate (which, btw, is one of those sites that is notorious for posting low quality papers).name123 said:The author I was quoting, has written the following papers
name123 said:Yes, the topic is a physics theory. So I am discussing it on a physics forum to see if there was a known problem with it. If there isn't then it is of philosophical interest.
name123 said:I have now bought the paper Proper-Time Formulation of Relativistic Dynamics which appeared in a journal listed on Clarivate.
The mass of a photon is referred to quite often. I've private messaged you.robphy said:From a google search of similarly titled papers by the author, some troubling phrases occurred.
Since you have access to the paper under discussion,
can transcribe (a quote, not a paraphrase) sentences and formulas referring to the "mass of the photon"?
It seems to me that this author's approach has a nonzero "mass of the photon", which is at odds with our current understanding.
Because of this, I feel that this (and possibly other conclusions)name123 said:The mass of a photon is referred to quite often. I've private messaged you.
So, as I am sure other earlier responses have suggested, there are problems with it.name123 said:TL;DR Summary: My question is, does the AEST approach work, while preserving proper time momentum, and flat Euclidean spacetime (even with gravity), or are there problems with it?
That is more of a problem than anything else.name123 said:I don't see any incompatibility there
And this really doesn’t work. Since you cannot know which is the absolute frame but since only the absolute frame supposedly fixes the problems then you can never know if you have fixed the problems.name123 said:But without any experimental way of determining whether an object is at rest in relation to absolute spacetime, those using the model by convention just assume one to be to get the results.
And at odds with current experimental evidence.robphy said:It seems to me that this author's approach has a nonzero "mass of the photon", which is at odds with our current understanding
Possibly useful: a very-old thread where the author is referenced in #4, #8, and later https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/wheres-the-catch.151075/Dale said:For a point of organization, let’s leave off the photon mass discussion, and focus on the “Euclidean spacetime” (space-proper time) issues.
1) The points do make it meaningful that there is a physical distinction between proper time and the time parameter in the model, even if it isn't possible to establish what is at rest in absolute spacetime. Thus a photon would be thought to move in absolute time, but not in proper time.Dale said:For a point of organization, let’s leave off the photon mass discussion, and focus on the “Euclidean spacetime” (space-proper time) issues. The community has identified the following problems with the space-propertime approach:
1) the points are not themselves physically meaningful
2) worldlines intersecting doesn’t imply nearby objects and vice versa
3) causes can come after effects
4) light rays retrace themselves making a light clock essentially impossible to analyze
5) the concept doesn’t even apply for light rays since it gives a division by zero
6) (did I miss any?)
It is claimed that “absolute” Euclidean spacetime somehow solves those problems. How? I really don’t see it.
A favorite of crackpots. I imagine they rank it highly. The rest of us, not so much.weirdoguy said:one journal, Physics Essays. How high is it ranked?
There is already a distinction between coordinate time and proper time. That is not relevant.name123 said:The points do make it meaningful that there is a physical distinction between proper time and the time parameter in the model
E.g. in the figure that @Ibix supplied.name123 said:World lines intersecting in which Fig that I supplied?
Look at the diagram by @Ibix The points where the two traveling twins meet the home twin are the same event. A signal from the “later” one could be sent to the “earlier” one.name123 said:But please explain how that is so given that the angle can't be larger than 90 degrees
Once you include coordinate time as an axis, the diagram is no longer Euclidean.name123 said:Light rays would only appear to retrace themselves in Fig 3 because their movement in parameter time is not shown
The foundational idea that all objects travel through space propertime at ##c##.name123 said:What concept doesn't even apply for light rays?
As @Ibix already showed, an example for this can be seen in the Epstein diagram of the twin paradox. When the twins meet again, ##A## has aged by 26 years and ##B## only by 10 year. Therefore, they are shown at different points on the ##\tau## axis.Dale said:Two different points in space propertime can happen at the same time and place.
Dale said:There is already a distinction between coordinate time and proper time. That is not relevant.
Dale said:The issue is that the space-propertime diagram is composed of points that have no physical meaning. If you dispute this then kindly write down the physical meaning of the points. What distinguishes one point in space propertime from another?
Physically different points in spacetime represent things that happened at different times (physically measured with clocks) or different places (physically measured with rulers). It is a clear physical meaning. There is no similar interpretation for space propertime that I know. Two different points in space propertime can happen at the same time and place.
Dale said:E.g. in the figure that @Ibix supplied.
Look at the diagram by @Ibix The points where the two traveling twins meet the home twin are the same event. A signal from the “later” one could be sent to the “earlier” one.
Once you include coordinate time as an axis, the diagram is no longer Euclidean.
The foundational idea that all objects travel through space propertime at ##c##.
Dale said:Anyway, it is becoming clear that you are not interested in learning what is wrong with this concept. You simply want to promote it.
I see little value in continuing this thread. Your stated question has been answered.
In standard relativity, the concept of "proper time" is not even applicable to photons. Lightlike objects are fundamentally different physically from timelike objects. The concept of "proper time" is only applicable to timelike objects.name123 said:So photons don't move through proper time in TR?
It is coordinate time in whatever inertial frame the diagram is being drawn.name123 said:I thought Montanus was pointing out that in the Minkowski Diagram (Fig 4 attachment #55) the time is actually the parameter time
No. Coordinate time is not the same as proper time in standard relativity.name123 said:in TR that is proper time I thought.
In any inertial frame, points on a photon's worldline map one-to-one with values of coordinate time. But, as above, coordinate time is not the same as proper time, and the concept of "proper time" is not even applicable to photons.name123 said:And I thought the photons did move in that time in TR.
That's true, but it's beside the point. If two worldlines in spacetime meet at a single point, that means those two objects physically met each other. But if two "worldlines" in space-propertime meet at a single point, that tells you nothing physically at all. That's the objection @Dale was making. You have not answered it.name123 said:I was under the impression that the different points in spacetime represent things that happened at different time (measured by clocks), or different places (physically measured with rulers).
The same coordinate time in any inertial frame. Or, more important, the same point in spacetime.name123 said:when the twins meet back up it is at the same parameter time.
No, but it is an issue for space-propertime, since it means a single physical event--the two twins meeting up again--is not represented by a single point in space-propertime. This is one illustration of the fact, already mentioned, that points in space-propertime have no physical meaning, unlike points in spacetime.name123 said:What the difference in proper time in Fig 3 type diagram represents is that the proper time of one twin is different to the proper time of the other. That their proper times are different isn't a causality issue.
No, you haven't. You have answered nothing whatever. See above.name123 said:Seems strange you would say that when I answered each thing you wrote.
This was evident in the long, painful thread on the Hafele-Keating experiment:PeterDonis said:It appears that not only do you not understand AEST, you also don't understand standard relativity.
PeterDonis said:In standard relativity, the concept of "proper time" is not even applicable to photons. Lightlike objects are fundamentally different physically from timelike objects. The concept of "proper time" is only applicable to timelike objects.
PeterDonis said:[PeterDonis didn't write this, just not sure how else to provide link to post]
I think that was what Montanus was considering a mistake that has taken place in TR. That from the diagrams I supplied in #55 you can see where the Minkowski diagram comes from. I'll just requote what his thoughts on it were.PeterDonis said:It is coordinate time in whatever inertial frame the diagram is being drawn.
I thought I gave quite an extensive answer, which evolved explaining that the information it gave depended on what type of diagram the worldline was in. And explained the difference whether it was a Fig 2 type, Fig 3 type, of Fig 4 (Minkowski) type.PeterDonis said:That's true, but it's beside the point. If two worldlines in spacetime meet at a single point, that means those two objects physically met each other. But if two "worldlines" in space-propertime meet at a single point, that tells you nothing physically at all. That's the objection @Dale was making. You have not answered it.
Ok, it seems to me that space-propertime is compatible at least with a past present future conception of time (I actually cannot see how else to view it without considering it to have 5 dimensions, but that might just be me). If so then the 4D Euclidean spacetime replaces the 3D Euclidean space of Newtonian physics. And thus for any point in parameter time, if two entities have the same space coordinates they will have met up. But, in the 4D Euclidean spacetime used, it wouldn't be a point like in the 3D space used in Newtonian physics, as there is an extra dimension, propertime. And so in the 4D Euclidean spacetime it would be a line. A line on which all points have the same space coordinates, but which have different propertime coordinates. As people could meet up with a range of different values on their clocks. And going further, it also seems to me as a layperson, propertime seems to reflect the idea of clocks slowing down when they move relative to absolute spacetime.PeterDonis said:No, but it is an issue for space-propertime, since it means a single physical event--the two twins meeting up again--is not represented by a single point in space-propertime. This is one illustration of the fact, already mentioned, that points in space-propertime have no physical meaning, unlike points in spacetime.
You still have not addressed my key point from my very first post which I have repeated multiple times. If you were interested in learning you would try it, but you are interested in pushing your concept.name123 said:Seems strange you would say that when I answered each thing you wrote.
Proper time is not defined on a null worldline. Instead an affine parameter must be used.name123 said:So photons don't move through proper time in TR?
See, here you are just making a weak argument rather than saying "oh yes, that is a problem". A space-propertime diagram, as shown by @Ibix, is very problematic. We tell you it is problematic and your response is not to say "yes it is problematic" but to say "well a different kind of diagram is not problematic". Pointing to a spacetime-propertime diagram doesn't fix a space-propertime diagram. It tacitly acknowledges the problem. If a space-propertime diagram worked then why would they need to introduce a spacetime-propertime diagram?name123 said:If you look at the diagrams I supplied in #55. The diagram supplied by @Ibix is a Fig 3 type diagram. But look at a Fig 2 type and imagine that type of diagram of it. It would be clear that the when the twins meet back up it is at the same parameter time.
Here is the issue. See the annotated diagram. Points A, B, and C are the same event. That is the first collision/reunion event. A pulse of light emitted at point D can affect points A, B, and C. So it is clear that in this presentation effects (A) can precede causes (D). Remember, worldlines in a space-propertime diagram don't have to intersect to actually be at the same place and time, so the fact that lightlike lines go at 90 degrees has no bearing on whether or not effects can precede the cause.name123 said:The paper explicitly denies this is the case. But please explain how that is so given that the angle can't be larger than 90 degrees
The way Carroll L. Epstein introduces it (here is the book online version), it is definitely just a different geometrical interpretation of the same SR & GR math. Basically a different type of diagram showing some things that a Minkowski-Diagram doesn't, but also missing some things.name123 said:It isn't just re-writing the math of standard SR because as you can see from the list of papers above one is called "General relativity in an absolute Euclidean space-time". And it uses flat Euclidean geometry even in situations with gravitation, and has the concept of absolute time.
Different types of diagrams have different interpretations for elements in them. In classical physics we use different diagrams too: time-position, time-velocity, position-velocity, ... Nobody is expecting that all diagram elements like points, path lengths or path crossings have the same physical meaning in all of them, or are equally meaningfull.Dale said:Physically different points in spacetime represent things that happened at different times (physically measured with clocks) or different places (physically measured with rulers). It is a clear physical meaning. There is no similar interpretation for space propertime that I know. Two different points in space propertime can happen at the same time and place.
Yes, the graphical elements of different diagrams have different meanings, that is in fact the concept I am trying to convey. It seems that the OP does expect that the points in a space-propertime diagram are physically meaningful, despite my harping on this issue non-stop.A.T. said:Nobody is expecting that all diagram elements like points, path lengths or path crossings have the same physical meaning in all of them, or are equally meaningfull.
It does not. The past present future organization is discarded as I showed above in the annotated version of @Ibix 's diagram.name123 said:Ok, it seems to me that space-propertime is compatible at least with a past present future conception of time
It does indeed do this, but that is all it does. That is why we are showing other examples of things it does not do. If you want to claim that something "works" then you probably need to specify what you claim it works for. As a general model of physics, it does not work. As a nice graphical indicator of time dilation it does work, and that is about it.name123 said:going further, it also seems to me as a layperson, propertime seems to reflect the idea of clocks slowing down
And as soon as you introduce SR's coordinate time ##t## then you are no longer using a space-propertime diagram and no longer using a Euclidean metric. In order to make the space-propertime diagram work for more than just time dilation you have to augment it with coordinate time. It is then no longer Euclidean and it is no longer space-propertime. The need to do this shows the stringent inherent limitations that you have yet to acknowledge about a space-propertime diagram.name123 said:And thus for any point in parameter time, if two entities have the same space coordinates they will have met up
Okay, clarifying this is important. But I don't see it as an argument against using space-propertime diagrams, along with space-coordinatetime diagrams. Some diagram elements are more meaningful in a space-propertime diagram, where the path length is the coordiante-time interval. In a space-coordiantetime diagram the path length has no directly interpretable meaning, and you need additional math to compute the proper-time interval from it.Dale said:Yes, the graphical elements of different diagrams have different meanings, that is in fact the concept I am trying to convey. It seems that the OP does expect that the points in a space-propertime diagram are physically meaningful, despite my harping on this issue non-stop.
Bolding above by me.A.T. said:Okay, clarifying this is important. But I don't see it as an argument against using space-propertime diagrams, along with space-coordinatetime diagrams. Some diagram elements are more meaningful in a space-propertime diagram, where the path length is the coordiante-time interval. In a space-coordiantetime diagram the path length has no directly interpretable meaning, and you need additional math to compute the proper-time interval from it.
Nor do I. It is fine to use space-propertime diagrams for what they are useful for.A.T. said:I don't see it as an argument against using space-propertime diagrams, along with space-coordinatetime diagrams
And this means that points in space-propertime can't have any physical meaning for light, any more than they do for timelike objects.name123 said:In AEST proper time is applicable to photons. It is just that they don't move through it.
First, you shouldn't assume. You should know. If you don't know even something as basic as that about AEST, what's the point of this thread? Aren't you just wasting everyone's time?name123 said:I assume in AEST there is no distinction between lightlike objects and timelike objects.
I have no idea what you are talking about here.name123 said:And that there is no need to perform the operation you did in
Montanus' claim that there is a mistake in standard relativity is one of the main reasons why he is considered a crackpot. The standard spacetime model of relativity makes precise quantitative predictions about experimental results that have been verified to many decimal places. That includes the parts of the model that Montanus claims contain a "mistake".name123 said:I think that was what Montanus was considering a mistake that has taken place in TR.
Montanus' thoughts here look like word salad to me. He is trying to claim that standard spacetime diagrams in flat Minkowski spacetime are somehow invalid. That doesn't even pass the laugh test. Again, the fact that he makes such claims with apparent seriousness is one of the main reasons why he is considered a crackpot. It's as if he were to claim that standard arithmetic is somehow wrong because mathematical objects like 1, 2, and 3 actually aren't valid numbers.name123 said:I'll just requote what his thoughts on it were.
Your statement here doesn't make sense. There is no such thing as "the coordinate time of an observed object". Coordinate times belong to events, not objects.name123 said:you seem to be stating that in TR when establishing the coordinate time of an observed object in a different frame of reference, the proper time of the observer is not a parameter.
You thought wrong. That's because, as I have already stated, you do not appear to have a good understanding either of AEST or of standard SR. Which, again, makes me wonder if this whole thread is not a waste of time. Maybe Montanus himself could come here and at least give some kind of substantive response to the concerns being raised (though from what I've read so far of what he wrote, I doubt it). But he's not posting here, you are, and it certainly doesn't seem like you can. So what's the point?name123 said:I thought I gave quite an extensive answer
All of this looks like word salad to me.name123 said:it seems to me that space-propertime is compatible at least with a past present future conception of time (I actually cannot see how else to view it without considering it to have 5 dimensions, but that might just be me). If so then the 4D Euclidean spacetime replaces the 3D Euclidean space of Newtonian physics. And thus for any point in parameter time, if two entities have the same space coordinates they will have met up. But, in the 4D Euclidean spacetime used, it wouldn't be a point like in the 3D space used in Newtonian physics, as there is an extra dimension, propertime. And so in the 4D Euclidean spacetime it would be a line. A line on which all points have the same space coordinates, but which have different propertime coordinates. As people could meet up with a range of different values on their clocks. And going further, it also seems to me as a layperson, propertime seems to reflect the idea of clocks slowing down when they move relative to absolute spacetime.