Do Lagrangian and hidden symm broken Lagr describe the same physics?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on whether the Lagrangian before symmetry breaking and the corresponding hidden symmetry broken Lagrangian describe the same physics. It explores the implications of field shifts and vacuum state definitions in quantum field theory, focusing on theoretical consistency and the uniqueness of vacuum states.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions the equivalence of the two Lagrangians, noting that the field in the unbroken Lagrangian is shifted by a constant compared to the broken Lagrangian, which complicates the understanding of their equivalence at the quantum level.
  • Another participant asserts that the two Lagrangians are equivalent but emphasizes that the definition of the vacuum state is not well defined in quantum field theory, suggesting that physical intuition is necessary to define it appropriately.
  • A participant requests further elaboration on the implications of the vacuum expectation value of the field, specifically regarding the self-consistency of the theory for one-point correlation functions and raises questions about the uniqueness of the theory when considering other diagrams.
  • Another participant reiterates the need for clarity on the uniqueness of vacuum states, stating that while expectation values of products of fields can be unique, defining specific states like the "vacuum" or "1-particle state" is not straightforward and requires intuition beyond first principles.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the equivalence of the two Lagrangians and the uniqueness of vacuum states, indicating that the discussion remains unresolved with multiple competing perspectives.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the dependence on definitions of vacuum states and the unresolved nature of certain mathematical steps related to the uniqueness of the theory when considering various correlation functions.

ndung200790
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Please teach me this:
Do the Lagrangian(before broken in symmetry) and corresponding hidden symmetry broken Lagrangian describe the same physics or not?Because the field in the Lagrangian before broken is shifted by a constant in comparision with the field in the broken Lagrangian,but at quantum level we must consider the field operators.Then I do not understand whether the two Lagrangian are equivalent or not.
Thank you very much in advanced.
 
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The two Lagrangians are equivalent.

What is different, is a "natural" definition of the vacuum state for two field operators. The "vacuum" is something that, in general, is not well defined in quantum field theory. A physical intuition is needed in order to find an appropriate definition of the vacuum.
 
Last edited:
Please pleasure elaborate more detail for me.I do know that the constant is the vacuum expectation value of field,then the theory is self-consistent for the one-point correlation function(the tadpole diagrams).But how about the other diagrams?
 
ndung200790 said:
Please pleasure elaborate more detail for me.I do know that the constant is the vacuum expectation value of field,then the theory is self-consistent for the one-point correlation function(the tadpole diagrams).But how about the other diagrams?
I am not saying that the theory is not self-consistent, I am saying that it is not unique.

More precisely, as long as you calculate only the expectation values of products of fields in a given state, the theory is unique. But the problem appears when you try to say that some particular state is the "vacuum", that another particular state is a "1-particle state", etc. It cannot be done in a unique straightforward way, without using some intuition not derivable from first principles.
 

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