Do laws of thermodynamics really apply to ecosystems?

In summary, the conversation discusses the applicability of the laws of thermodynamics to ecosystems. While the laws are traditionally applied to closed systems, they can also be applied to open systems by considering all inputs and outputs. Ecosystems, being open systems, still follow the laws of thermodynamics by requiring energy and dissipating heat.
  • #1
Tyto alba
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From Odum (Father of modern ecology)

Ecosystem follows the laws of termodynamics
1st law
Energy is neither created nor destroyed.

2nd law
No process involving an energy change will spontaneously occur unless there is a degradation of energy from a concentrated to a dispersed form.

The way the laws have been put it looks alright but they are valid for closed systems only which ecosystems are not.

However according to wikipedia apart from having a closed system there are several other factors to consider:
1. 1st law
2. 2nd law

Note: I have fundamental idea about thermodynamics having read physics upto class XII level. My understanding about the validity of these laws in ecosystems isn't getting any better.
 
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  • #2
I am not 100% sure what your question is. If it's simply "do the laws of thermodynamics apply to ecosystems" then the answer is still yes. Those laws are universal. If you have a more specific idea there then I guess I am having a hard time figuring out exactly what sort of situation needs clarification here.
 
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  • #3
boneh3ad said:
I am not 100% sure what your question is. If it's simply "do the laws of thermodynamics apply to ecosystems" then the answer is still yes. Those laws are universal. If you have a more specific idea there then I guess I am having a hard time figuring out exactly what sort of situation needs clarification here.

Well the thing is ecosystems are open systems and I believe laws of thermodynamics are valid for closed systems only.
 
  • #4
SanjuktaGhosh said:
Well the thing is ecosystems are open systems and I believe laws of thermodynamics are valid for closed systems only.
Draw a big enough circle and an open system becomes a closed system.

Or, take your open system (aka a control volume) and keep track of all goesintos and goesoutofs and you can still apply those laws.
 
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  • #5
All ecosystems on Earth, the only ones we know about, require energy in some form, and dispose of 'used' energy mainly as heat.
 

1. Do the laws of thermodynamics apply to ecosystems?

Yes, the laws of thermodynamics apply to all systems, including ecosystems. These laws govern the flow of energy and matter within ecosystems, just as they do in other systems.

2. What are the laws of thermodynamics?

The first law of thermodynamics states that energy cannot be created or destroyed, only transferred or transformed from one form to another. The second law states that the total entropy of a closed system will always increase over time.

3. How do the laws of thermodynamics apply to ecosystems?

In ecosystems, energy enters in the form of sunlight and is then converted into chemical energy by photosynthesis. This energy is then transferred through the food chain as organisms consume and are consumed by other organisms. The second law of thermodynamics applies as energy is lost as heat with each transfer, leading to a decrease in available energy.

4. Can the laws of thermodynamics be used to predict ecosystem behavior?

While the laws of thermodynamics can provide a framework for understanding energy flow within ecosystems, predicting exact behaviors is difficult due to the complexity of these systems. Ecosystems are constantly changing and are influenced by numerous factors, making it challenging to make accurate predictions.

5. Are there any exceptions to the laws of thermodynamics in ecosystems?

While the laws of thermodynamics generally apply to all systems, there may be some exceptions in ecosystems. For example, some organisms have evolved unique strategies to minimize energy loss and increase efficiency, such as symbiotic relationships or behaviors that conserve energy. However, these exceptions still adhere to the overall principles of the laws of thermodynamics.

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