Do laws of thermodynamics really apply to ecosystems?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the applicability of the laws of thermodynamics to ecosystems, exploring whether these laws, typically associated with closed systems, can be applied to open systems like ecosystems. Participants examine the implications of energy transfer and degradation within ecological contexts.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants reference Odum's perspective that ecosystems follow the laws of thermodynamics, specifically noting the first and second laws regarding energy conservation and degradation.
  • Others argue that while the laws are universal, their application to ecosystems is complicated by the fact that ecosystems are open systems, which may not fit the traditional definitions of closed systems.
  • One participant suggests that if a large enough boundary is drawn around an ecosystem, it could be treated as a closed system, allowing the laws to apply.
  • Another point raised is that ecosystems require energy input and dispose of 'used' energy primarily as heat, which may influence how thermodynamic laws are perceived in this context.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the applicability of thermodynamic laws to ecosystems, with no consensus reached on whether these laws can be fully applied to open systems. Some maintain that the laws are universally applicable, while others emphasize the limitations posed by the open nature of ecosystems.

Contextual Notes

Participants note that the traditional understanding of thermodynamics is based on closed systems, raising questions about the assumptions underlying the application of these laws to ecosystems.

Tyto alba
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From Odum (Father of modern ecology)

Ecosystem follows the laws of termodynamics
1st law
Energy is neither created nor destroyed.

2nd law
No process involving an energy change will spontaneously occur unless there is a degradation of energy from a concentrated to a dispersed form.

The way the laws have been put it looks alright but they are valid for closed systems only which ecosystems are not.

However according to wikipedia apart from having a closed system there are several other factors to consider:
1. 1st law
2. 2nd law

Note: I have fundamental idea about thermodynamics having read physics upto class XII level. My understanding about the validity of these laws in ecosystems isn't getting any better.
 
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I am not 100% sure what your question is. If it's simply "do the laws of thermodynamics apply to ecosystems" then the answer is still yes. Those laws are universal. If you have a more specific idea there then I guess I am having a hard time figuring out exactly what sort of situation needs clarification here.
 
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boneh3ad said:
I am not 100% sure what your question is. If it's simply "do the laws of thermodynamics apply to ecosystems" then the answer is still yes. Those laws are universal. If you have a more specific idea there then I guess I am having a hard time figuring out exactly what sort of situation needs clarification here.

Well the thing is ecosystems are open systems and I believe laws of thermodynamics are valid for closed systems only.
 
SanjuktaGhosh said:
Well the thing is ecosystems are open systems and I believe laws of thermodynamics are valid for closed systems only.
Draw a big enough circle and an open system becomes a closed system.

Or, take your open system (aka a control volume) and keep track of all goesintos and goesoutofs and you can still apply those laws.
 
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All ecosystems on Earth, the only ones we know about, require energy in some form, and dispose of 'used' energy mainly as heat.
 

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