Thank you for the responses in #6. #7 and #8 to the issues raised in posts #1-#5. Here are some comments in response.
kith said:
First, Einstein introduced the photon with energy E=hw. From this, one can deduce p=hk when taking into account E=cp……………I think you're too sloppy with your formulas. For example, what's 'm' supposed to mean, when you're talking about the photon in your second post?
Addressing sloppiness, did you mean h-bar in the equations above? I also noticed a mistake in one of my own references, so for general reference, I will table the following equations, which will hopefully explain my use of ‘m’ in the context of a photon.
E= \hbar \omega ; \ \ \ \ \ \ p= \hbar \kappa
E^2 = m_0^2 c^4 + p^2 c^2
This, as you state, leads to E=pc for a photon having no rest mass. However, if you equate and re-arrange Planck’s and Einstein’s energy equation, you get some
‘notional’ idea of a kinetic mass associated with the photon:
E=mc^2=hf; \ \ m_k=\frac {hf}{c^2}
mc= \frac {hf}{c}=p
If we accept ‘h’ and ‘c’ as constants in this context, then there is some equivalence between ‘m’ and ‘f’, which must also be subject to the same relativistic effects. I raise this point in passing because I believe that deBroglie thesis discusses 3 frequencies associated with the particle, 1) the internal frequency in the rest system 2) the internal frequency as measured by an external observer who sees the system moving with velocity ‘v’ and 3) the frequency the external observer would associate with the particle’s total energy. However, I have to admit that I have not work through the implications of these 3 perspectives. Maybe somebody might be able to clarify this aspect?
kith said:
If we assume that energy and impulse obey the same relations as for the photon-like de Broglie-, we can derive vg=v in the non-relativistic as well as in the relativistic case. This is what justifies this hypothesis. Like other parts of the 'old' quantum theory, it was just a plausible assumption at this time, and was not derived from fundamental principles.
I have no problem with this, as a general assumption, but the issues raised in post #2 were specific to the formulation of deBroglie’s wavelength.
kith said:
The question is not whether to use kinetic or total energy, but whether to use the non-relativistic or the relativistic energy-impulse relation, which depends on the physical situation. However, both should yield the same results. And you always use the total energy, which happens to be the same as the kinetic one in the non-relativistic case.
Sorry, this is too generalised for me to be sure about what you are trying to clarify. If you reference the total relativistic energy equation above, which does not account for any potential energy, then the total energy of a particle includes its rest mass. Again, post #2 tried to resolve the deBroglie wavelength in terms of both total and kinetic energy without success. If you know a way to resolve the issue that I was trying to highlight, I would be most grateful if you could detail any sort of derivation that substantiates deBroglie’s wavelength equation. Thanks.
kith said:
Your expressions for the phase velocities seem to be right. But I don't think, there's much physics in them. As you noted, the group velocity is what counts.
I wasn’t trying to present the physics, but rather establish the definition of the phase velocity, when predicated on what appears to be deBroglie’s assumptions, linked to either total energy or kinetic energy. Again, I will present the ‘
physics’ purely by way of reference before returning to the main issue being raised in post #3.
v_p= \frac {E}{p} = \frac {mc^2}{mv}= \frac {c^2}{v}
v_g= \frac {\partial E}{\partial p} = \frac {p}{m} = \frac {mv}{m} = v
The energy associated with the phase velocity appears to be the total energy, while the energy associated with the group velocity appears to be kinetic. However, I am unsure what you mean by ‘
the group velocity is what counts’ as the issue I was attempting to raise was linked to the physical meaning of both the phase and group velocity. Please note I am not trying to forward any interpretation of my own, but the description of a group wave packet seemed to suggest some process of wave superposition. If so, I don’t understand how you get a group wave packet without describing the underlying waves associated with the phase velocity. The fact the equation above seems to suggest these wave traveling in excess of ‘c’ appears confusing, at least, to me.
kith said:
I'm not sure, what you're troubled with here. With the use of E=hw and p=hk, the energy-impulse relations E(p) translate to frequency-wavenumber relations w(k). Broadening of wavepackets should not be confused with loss of coherence. For every potential, there is a characteristic revival time for which the wavepacket is restored to it's initial shape. In free space, the wavepacket doesn't stop broadening, but that's okay, since there is infinite space. ;-) In real space, there are also interactions which localize the particle and therefor cut off parts of the wavepacket.
Again, if you could clarify some of your points I would be grateful; especially in the context of the following Wikipedia statement that you referenced in post #6.
The function ω(k), which gives ω as a function of k, is known as the dispersion relation. If ω is directly proportional to k, then the group velocity is exactly equal to the phase velocity. Otherwise, the envelope of the wave will become distorted as it propagates…Note: The above definition of group velocity is only useful for wavepackets, which is a pulse that is localized in both real space and frequency space. Because waves at different frequencies propagate at differing phase velocities in dispersive media, for a large frequency range (a narrow envelope in space) the observed pulse would change shape while traveling, making group velocity an unclear or useless quantity.
Are the caveats being raised here applicable to a dispersive particle wave packet, which appears to be constructed from a superposition of harmonic waves of different wavelengths, at least, mathematically?
KWillets said:
I can't tell for sure, but you seem to be confusing phase velocity and group velocity.
Quite possibly, but hopefully the statements above may help you decide
KWillets said:
For photons, the two factors are indistinguishable, but for massive particles, v_{phase}v_{group} = c^2 but the group velocity is < c.)
While I understand where you are coming from, can you justify the phase velocity within any physical description of the wave packet?
Again, just by way of clarification, being new to quantum theory, I decided to start from an historical aspect and work forward. As such, I have only just reached deBroglie’s ideas about particle wave and the influence it appears to have had on Schrodinger’s derivation of his wave equation. This derivation seems to be predicated on the idea of a dispersive wave relationship based on deBroglie’s ‘
assumptions’. Equally, it was unclear to me why Schrodinger elected to take the complex path within his derivation – see post #5. From a learning perspective, it would be nice if there was also some physical interpretation underpinning some of the particle wave packet ideas. Thanks