Electrical power corridor supply

[ECO Maverick]

What is required to bring hydro lines on towers together?

 

[russ_watters]

What is required to bring hydro lines on towers together?

Welcome to PF!

I'm not even certain that is a complete sentence, but it is certainly not a complete thought. Please provide more background detail on the issue and a more specific question (is, is the "what" you are asking about pounds, dollars, people or aluminum?).

 

[ECO Maverick]

My apologies, I am a high school without diploma. Your right, let me ask the question in a different way. What obstacles would have to be overcome to combine all the wires presently carried by towers? Physically.

 

[ECO Maverick]

What type of materials would allow the wires to be in close contact?

 

[anorlunda]

What type of materials would allow the wires to be in close contact?

OK, it sounds like you are looking at a power transmission line with three wires well separated. The main reason for the separation is to prevent lightning jumping from one line to another. In other words, insulation.

Underground and underwater power transmission cables use plastics for insulation. But they are expensive, they are limited in voltage, and they have high capacitance which causes problems on the power grid. Therefore they are not used for above ground lines.

So the reason why those wires are not closer together is not just because of materials.

Undersea cable

Overhead power line

 

[russ_watters]

@ECO Maverick may also be unaware that the three wires carry electricity in differently phased waveforms, so they cannot actually be combined.

But let me ask: why do you want to combine them?

 

[davenn]

But let me ask: why do you want to combine them?

pretty sure he just means "what it takes to bring this all together to make it work"

... what combination of technology, materials etc

 

[ECO Maverick]

THANK YOU Russ and David. We Canadians and Ontarians are faced with 1) High costs for electricity, 2) High cost of upgrading hydro supply infrastructure and 3) lack of high speed rail. I'm a believer in Tesla. Can anybody see what needs to be done? The hydro lines need to be brought closer together in a protective housing and allow another need/utility to be piggy backed with the infrastructure upgrade.

 

[anorlunda]

THANK YOU Russ and David. We Canadians and Ontarians are faced with 1) High costs for electricity, 2) High cost of upgrading hydro supply infrastructure and 3) lack of high speed rail. I'm a believer in Tesla. Can anybody see what needs to be done? The hydro lines need to be brought closer together in a protective housing and allow another need/utility to be piggy backed with the infrastructure upgrade.

You have a misconception that doing as you suggest will cost less money. The cost would be higher.

 

[ECO Maverick]

The other option is to give up and as a society globally call under a rock and submit.

 

[ECO Maverick]

Crawl

 

[anorlunda]

@ECO Maverick , may I ask a question? How high are your high costs for electricity? I'm in Florida right now. The local price here is more than $0.18 / kWh. (Canadian $0.24 / kWh )

Some municipalities in your neighbor state, New York, get Niagara Falls power for as little as $0.025 / kWh.

 

[ECO Maverick]

I will research the exact 3's and get back to you on it. But the biggest political football in Ontario is the HIGH cost of hydro. On a separate note WE in kanada are getting FLEECED by the FREE trade agreement that (1) we produce hydro at cost and Have to sell it to the U S at something like 18cents?? YES Mr trump rip up the FREE(?) trade agreement and as an honest (fair) business man pay the Actual cost. FAT chance. Sir Mr Anorlunda? with all due Respect, in this age of Me Me Me and GREED and selfishness do you think it will change?

 

[ECO Maverick]

3=#'s

 

[ECO Maverick]

Also the agreement say's the U S can commandeer our water.

 

[anorlunda]

I will research the exact 3's and get back to you on it. But the biggest political football in Ontario is the HIGH cost of hydro. On a separate note WE in kanada are getting FLEECED by the FREE trade agreement that (1) we produce hydro at cost and Have to sell it to the U S at something like 18cents?? YES Mr trump rip up the FREE(?) trade agreement and as an honest (fair) business man pay the Actual cost. FAT chance. Sir Mr Anorlunda? with all due Respect, in this age of Me Me Me and GREED and selfishness do you think it will change?

We might be able to arrange to loan Mr. Trump to Canada. Or Ontario could apply to become the 51st state. Just kidding.

 

[ECO Maverick]

We might be able to arrange to loan Mr. Trump to Canada. Or Ontario could apply to become the 51st state. Just kidding.

 

[ECO Maverick]

Personaly, I don't approve of the republican or democrats the same for (our)conservative or liberals. When 90 children can die in one year( under the care of our courts and childrens aid) and NOTHING-ZERO was said. I look at today's world with a science/realistic mind and think it's a fcuked up world. So I wonder what life is all about. I sit looking at our local hydro tower's at the Kipling station and think there must be a better way. I look at the Deaths from both RAIL and Pipelines( Amtrak passenger crashed into the Mississippi river/ 47 KILLED by an oil train in Quebec. And the numerous pipeline explosions through out the %US. There has to be a better way.

 

[russ_watters]

THANK YOU Russ and David. We Canadians and Ontarians are faced with 1) High costs for electricity, 2) High cost of upgrading hydro supply infrastructure...

You're welcome.

I don't know Canadian politics or what specific project you might be referring to, but in general hydro is one of the cheapest forms of electricity. The reason is that while the infrastructure is indeed fabulously expensive, once it is paid for, all that is left is maintenance and operations; there are no fuel costs. That makes hydro over the long term one of the cheapest forms of electricity.

 

[ECO Maverick]

Also the amount of armed civilians that have armed forces experienced that Know the truth(government lies, 911 war on terror) sets up a very interesting scene for the future When eventually the truth is out and the Empire crashes( Trump threatening the Chinese who hold TRILLIONS in cashble bonds, legally). My stomach hurts.

 

[ECO Maverick]

Its time for a revolution, in Rail and Resource movement. We in the U S and Canada need a maverick. I bet we could find the investors in China to buy bonds for a High Speed NEXT Generation Non underailable Rail network. That could be a part of a whole new hydro corridor. Now after everybody pulls themselves off the floor from laughing I intend to do my best to get it started. The people that oppose my thoughts or intention probably think, why bother, who cares the end is near. That sounds like a lot of Christians who believe the end is near. Funny, Christians and atheists agreeing. lol.

 

[anorlunda]

You're welcome.

I don't know Canadian politics or what specific project you might be referring to, but in general hydro is one of the cheapest forms of electricity. The reason is that while the infrastructure is indeed fabulously expensive, once it is paid for, all that is left is maintenance and operations; there are no fuel costs. That makes hydro over the long term one of the cheapest forms of electricity.

Russ, I don't think he meant hydro literally. The name of his utility is Ontario Hydro. To him, hydro infrastructure Is shorthand for Ontario Hydro infrastructure.

 

[davenn]

You're welcome.

I don't know Canadian politics or what specific project you might be referring to, but in general hydro is one of the cheapest forms of electricity. The reason is that while the infrastructure is indeed fabulously expensive, once it is paid for, all that is left is maintenance and operations; there are no fuel costs. That makes hydro over the long term one of the cheapest forms of electricity.

not to mention the very low long term impact on the environment, no waste products result from the generation process

 

[russ_watters]

Jeez, this is an awfully thick language barrier for a 6-hour drive!

 

[NTL2009]

not to mention the very low long term impact on the environment, no waste products result from the generation process

Well, you probably should not have mentioned it! ...

http://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/?page=hydropower_environment

A dam that creates a reservoir (or a dam that diverts water to a run-of-river hydropower plant) may obstruct fish migration. A reservoir and dam can also change natural water temperatures, water chemistry, river flow characteristics, and silt loads. All of these changes can affect the ecology and the physical characteristics of the river. These changes may have negative impacts on native plants and on animals in and around the river. Reservoirs may cover important natural areas, agricultural land, or archeological sites. A reservoir and the operation of the dam may also result in the relocation of people. The physical impacts of a dam and reservoir, the operation of the dam, and the use of the water can change the environment over a much larger area than the area covered by a reservoir.

...

Carbon dioxide and methane may also form in reservoirs and be emitted into the atmosphere. The exact amount of greenhouse gases produced in hydropower reservoirs is uncertain. The emissions from reservoirs in tropical and temperate regions, including the United States, may be equal to or greater than the greenhouse effect of the carbon dioxide emissions from an equivalent amount of electricity generated with fossil fuels

I also understand, and it might be a good thing considering the above, that there is very little additional hydro resource available to be tapped in the US.

 

[davenn]

Well, you probably should not have mentioned it! ...

well in some dams, those things are not taken into account, others they are

but regardless their effect on the environment is much less than nuclear and coal fuelled stations

 

[NTL2009]

well in some dams, those things are not taken into account, others they are

but regardless their effect on the environment is much less than nuclear and coal fuelled stations

Can you supply some references for that with objective data?

 

[ECO Maverick]

What type of insulation would be best suitable for bringing power transmission lines(approx, 150,000 volts) on transmission towers closer together?

 

[ECO Maverick]

Is there an obstacle when running power transmission lines on towers such as heat? If there is can it be used or siphoned off to an alternate path or use?

 

[anorlunda]

What type of insulation would be best suitable for bringing power transmission lines(approx, 150,000 volts) on transmission towers closer together?

Your questions were already answered in posts #5 and #9.

 

[ECO Maverick]

I was looking for specific material's for insulation and ideas of limiting issue's such as arching, etc.

 

[anorlunda]

I was looking for specific material's for insulation and ideas of limiting issue's such as arching, etc.

Are you planning on buildings your own transmission line?

Google insulating materials.

 

[ECO Maverick]

Are you planning on buildings your own transmission line?

Google insulating materials.

Actually, yes. I'm hoping to start a revolution in High speed travel and combining it with a renewal of transmission power corridors.

 

[anorlunda]

Actually, yes. I'm hoping to start a revolution in High speed travel and combining it with a renewal of transmission power corridors.

In that case, you don't need answers from an Internet forum. You need a degree in Electrical Engineering.

 

[ECO Maverick]

No, I need an engineer to consult and discuss without looking down on me with a higher than thou attitude. With all due respect not you of course.

 

[anorlunda]

No, I need an engineer to consult and discuss without looking down on me with a higher than thou attitude. With all due respect not you of course.

Look at your PF Inbox, I sent you a private message.

 

[CWatters]

Air is quite a cheap insulator compared to other materials. Bringing wires closer together won't make the infrastructure cheaper.

Perhaps look at installing local wind or solar PV if transporting energy is so expensive.

Better still look at energy saving measures so you don't need to use so much in the first place?

 

[anorlunda]

Air is quite a cheap insulator compared to other materials. Bringing wires closer together won't make the infrastructure cheaper.

Sorry, I have to disagree with that. The real estate needed for a transmission line (called right-of-way) is extensive and very expensive. Especially in urban areas. Imagine clearing a 100 meter wide corridor right across the middle of any big city, or any populated area. In many places, utilities have been told that they can never again expand the right-of-way real estate they already have. Future capacity growth must come from more efficient use of the existing right-of-way. Therefore, any scheme to build more than one line or a higher capacity line using the same right-of-way is very valuable. For example, designs of six phase or twelve phase transmission lines are sitting on the shelf waiting for the day when they become economically viable.

Underground and underwater cables of course use less right-of-way, but their cost per mile and their technical problems make them non-competitive in most cases.

But I don't think that is what the OP was asking about. What the OP is really asking is very muddled.

 

[ECO Maverick]

Air is quite a cheap insulator compared to other materials. Bringing wires closer together won't make the infrastructure cheaper.

Perhaps look at installing local wind or solar PV if transporting energy is so expensive.

Better still look at energy saving measures so you don't need to use so much in the first place?

$ Money $. At some point the need for upgrading existing power lines has to be addressed. The SAD part is people today above 30 years of age keeps whining about the cost to them TODAY. What about the people that are under 40 that will be BURDENED by the costs( cost keeps going up) to upgrade an out of date system? The cost of upgrading can be greatly reduced if combing 1) electrical system upgrade 2)connecting the ENTIRE continent fibre optic system and 3) goinjg to the NEXT level rail service.

 

[ECO Maverick]

Sorry, I have to disagree with that. The real estate needed for a transmission line (called right-of-way) is extensive and very expensive. Especially in urban areas. Imagine clearing a 100 meter wide corridor right across the middle of any big city, or any populated area. In many places, utilities have been told that they can never again expand the right-of-way real estate they already have. Future capacity growth must come from more efficient use of the existing right-of-way. Therefore, any scheme to build more than one line or a higher capacity line using the same right-of-way is very valuable. For example, designs of six phase or twelve phase transmission lines are sitting on the shelf waiting for the day when they become economically viable.

Underground and underwater cables of course use less right-of-way, but their cost per mile and their technical problems make them non-competitive in most cases.

But I don't think that is what the OP was asking about. What the OP is really asking is very muddled.

I have asked from the beginning and will repeat it; What type of insulation is required to bring High voltage lines closer together? But every response gets into a major upheaval about costs or act like it's impossible.

 

[CWatters]

If it was cheap and easy it would be used on new lines already.

 

[anorlunda]

I have asked from the beginning and will repeat it; What type of insulation is required to bring High voltage lines closer together? But every response gets into a major upheaval about costs or act like it's impossible.

You had your answer in post #5, plastics.

 

[jim hardy]

What type of insulation is required to bring High voltage lines closer together?

have you tried a search on hv cable ?
Your search engine learns to send you stuff based on what it sees you study
mine's first hit suggests cross linked polyethylene
http://www.nexans.co.uk/eservice/UK-en_GB/fileLibrary/Download_540192183/UK/files/Nexans%20High%20Voltage%20Underground.pdf
and the second suggests oil impregnated polypropylene
http://www.divtecs.com/data/A%20500%20kV%20Power%20System%20for%20a%20Gridded%20Sheet%20Beam%20Klystron.pdf

as anorlunda said,

 

[ECO Maverick]

have you tried a search on hv cable ?
Your search engine learns to send you stuff based on what it sees you study
mine's first hit suggests cross linked polyethylene
http://www.nexans.co.uk/eservice/UK-en_GB/fileLibrary/Download_540192183/UK/files/Nexans%20High%20Voltage%20Underground.pdf
and the second suggests oil impregnated polypropylene
http://www.divtecs.com/data/A%20500%20kV%20Power%20System%20for%20a%20Gridded%20Sheet%20Beam%20Klystron.pdf

as anorlunda said,

A huge thank you Sir. Everyone else said its too expensive or couldn't be done. Again very much appreciated, and with no attitude.