EM waves and traditional method of transmission

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the transmission of power via electromagnetic (EM) waves in AC systems, particularly focusing on whether traditional methods of calculating power can be applied to long transmission lines, such as those measuring 500 km. Participants explore the implications of transmission line length, impedance matching, and the behavior of current and voltage along the line.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question whether a 500 km transmission line exists and if traditional methods can still be applied to calculate AC systems in such cases.
  • It is suggested that the current may not be the same at every point along the line, depending on the phase of the EM wave.
  • One participant argues that if the line is impedance matched at both ends, the length of the line becomes less significant, as the wave propagates at near light speed, leading to different voltage and current values at various points.
  • Concerns are raised about the implications of impedance mismatches, which can lead to reflections and standing waves, complicating the measurement of current on the line.
  • Participants note that at lower electrical frequencies, such as 60 Hz, the assumption that current is the same throughout the transmission line holds true, but this may not apply at higher frequencies.
  • There is a discussion about the differences between traditional circuit analysis methods for AC and DC versus those needed for high-frequency AC transmission, suggesting that different approaches may be required.
  • One participant expresses skepticism about referring to a 60 Hz signal as an EM wave, suggesting it is more akin to a time-varying DC signal, which may lead to confusion in the discussion.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the applicability of traditional methods for analyzing AC systems in the context of long transmission lines. While some agree that current can be considered uniform at low frequencies, others highlight the complexities introduced by impedance mismatches and the need for different analytical approaches at higher frequencies. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the best methods for analysis in these scenarios.

Contextual Notes

Participants mention limitations in traditional circuit analysis methods, particularly regarding assumptions about current uniformity and the effects of impedance mismatches. The discussion also touches on the differences in modeling for power frequency versus high-frequency surges, indicating that the context of the analysis significantly influences the approach taken.

Jackson Lee
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Hey, guys. We all know power of AC currents is transferred via EM waves, but we seldom use that to calculate power in AC system. The reason for this is wavelength is very long. I want to know if there is really existed a transmission line which is 500km, just the length of EM wavelength, then could we still use the traditional method to calculate AC system? For example, could we still regard the current in the line to be same in every spot?
 
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Jackson Lee said:
I want to know if there is really existed a transmission line which is 500km

I would imagine there's quite a few around the world
there are a number of them in Australia alone

Jackson Lee said:
For example, could we still regard the current in the line to be same in every spot?

why wouldn't it be ?
 
davenn said:
why wouldn't it be ?

Wouldn't it depend upon the phase of the EM wave at that point?
 
Drakkith said:
Wouldn't it depend upon the phase of the EM wave at that point?

hmmm, good point ... that's possible, would need some one better informed than me to confirm that
 
Jackson Lee said:
I want to know if there is really existed a transmission line which is 500km, just the length of EM wavelength, then could we still use the traditional method to calculate AC system?
The length of the line is not important if it is impedance matched at both ends. The wave propagates along the line at close to the speed of light, it takes time to do so. The wave progressively reaches different points along the line, so at any instant the V and I waves will be different everywhere.

If there is an impedance mismatch at the receiving end, a wave will be reflected back to the generator. On a transmission line the forward and reflected waves are quite independent of each other and so pass without any influence on each other. But if you measure the current on the line without a directional coupler or hybrid transformer, it will be the sum of both that you are measuring. That is where standing waves come from.

At 60Hz, the wavelength on a bare metal transmission line is not 500 km but is closer to 5000 km.
 
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Baluncore said:
The length of the line is not important if it is impedance matched at both ends. The wave propagates along the line at close to the speed of light, it takes time to do so. The wave progressively reaches different points along the line, so at any instant the V and I waves will be different everywhere.

If there is an impedance mismatch at the receiving end, a wave will be reflected back to the generator. On a transmission line the forward and reflected waves are quite independent of each other and so pass without any influence on each other. But if you measure the current on the line without a directional coupler or hybrid transformer, it will be the sum of both that you are measuring. That is where standing waves come from.

At 60Hz, the wavelength on a bare metal transmission line is not 500 km but is closer to 5000 km.
Oh, yes. You are right. It is close to 5000km. Besides, what puzzled me most is in traditional method of electric circuit analysis, both AC and DC, we always assume current is same at every point in one transmission line, I mean if there is no branch, but if it is not the case as what we talked above, then how to analyze? Use wave formula you have mentioned?
 
Jackson Lee said:
Besides, what puzzled me most is in traditional method of electric circuit analysis, both AC and DC, we always assume current is same at every point in one transmission line

Unless you are dealing with high-frequency AC transmission, perhaps in the form of microwave communication or radar, the electrical frequency is so low that for all intents and purposes the current is the same at every point and there is no need to complicate things by including it.
 
Jackson Lee said:
Besides, what puzzled me most is in traditional method of electric circuit analysis, both AC and DC, we always assume current is same at every point in one transmission line,

that works for a cct on your bench where wire lengths are minimal
 
Drakkith said:
Unless you are dealing with high-frequency AC transmission, perhaps in the form of microwave communication or radar, the electrical frequency is so low that for all intents and purposes the current is the same at every point and there is no need to complicate things by including it.
davenn said:
that works for a cct on your bench where wire lengths are minimal
So, you mean if frequency is very high, then we have to use another novel way to deal with circuit analysis.Right?
 
  • #10
Jackson Lee said:
So, you mean if frequency is very high, then we have to use another novel way to deal with circuit analysis.Right?

As far as I know, yes.
 
  • #11
If you have an impedance mismatch, the resulting waveform will often show ringing:
nexlogic%20pcb%20design%20figure%203%20350.jpg
 
  • #12
Svein said:
If you have an impedance mismatch, the resulting waveform will often show ringing:
nexlogic%20pcb%20design%20figure%203%20350.jpg
Oh, it seems interesting. Maybe I will learn it laterly in wave formula. Thx
 
  • #13
Drakkith said:
As far as I know, yes.
Thx a lot. You are really helpful, guy
 
  • #14
Jackson Lee said:
Oh, yes. You are right. It is close to 5000km. Besides, what puzzled me most is in traditional method of electric circuit analysis, both AC and DC, we always assume current is same at every point in one transmission line, I mean if there is no branch, but if it is not the case as what we talked above, then how to analyze? Use wave formula you have mentioned?

In power system analysis, for the 60 hertz power, we assume current is the same everywhere (neglecting distributed shunt capacitance),
But we also study what we call "switching surges", where the EM wave front moves at near light speed, but the surges disappear in a few milliseconds. Lightning strikes are like switching surges. Surges and strikes have string high frequency components. The transmission line models for surges and the models for power frequency are very different. For example, impedance matching and reflections are not a factor at 60 hertz.

I resist calling a 60 hertz signal an EM wave; 60 hertz is closer to a time varying DC signal than it is to a surge EM wave. Those semantic differences may be confusing the OP.
 

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