Entropy in the Brazil Nut Sorting Effect

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the Brazil Nut effect, specifically how it relates to entropy and the second law of thermodynamics. Participants explore the implications of this phenomenon on the understanding of entropy in both granular systems and macroscopic contexts.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants note that the Brazil Nut effect involves larger grains moving upward while smaller grains move downward, which seems to contradict the expectation that entropy and multiplicity should increase according to the second law of thermodynamics.
  • One participant questions the definition of 'the system' in this context and whether it has fixed energy, suggesting that this could influence the interpretation of entropy changes.
  • Another participant emphasizes that entropy is a molecular scale phenomenon and may not directly apply to macroscopic systems like the Brazil Nut effect.
  • There is a suggestion that potential energy is gained when interstitial voids are reduced, leading to a dissipation of energy that cannot be reconverted, which could relate to the overall entropy considerations.
  • Some participants acknowledge that granular materials are often out of equilibrium, which complicates the application of traditional thermodynamic principles.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the application of the second law of thermodynamics to the Brazil Nut effect, with no consensus reached on how entropy behaves in this scenario.

Contextual Notes

There are limitations regarding the definitions of 'the system' and the energy states involved, as well as the applicability of molecular scale entropy concepts to macroscopic phenomena.

Tahmeed
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In Brazil Nut effect /Granular convection the large grains move upward and the smaller ones go downward. This sorting is supposed to reduce the multiplicity of this system. But according to the second law of thermodynamics, entropy and multiplicity of the system should increase.

I am looking for a detailed and intuitive explanation of this.
 
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Consider what you define as 'the system'. Does it have a fixed energy ?
 
Entropy is a molecular scale phenomenon. It is not expected to apply to macroscopic systems, such as how you organize your library (or how Brazil nuts gravitationally segregate).
 
Tahmeed said:
I am looking for a detailed and intuitive explanation of this.
Google is your friend. There's a lot behind pay walls, but I liked browsing this one, so: thanks for bringing it up !
BvU said:
Consider what you define as 'the system'. Does it have a fixed energy ?
My reason for putting it this way: I figured potential energy is won when interstitial void is reduced (closer packing). This energy is dissipated and can't be reconverted. But Chet's comment is quite valid although my own library definitely obeys the second law.

Page 211 in the link said:
granular materials are a system out of equilibrium at almost any level
 

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