Finding out the input impedance in a negative feedback op-amp

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around finding the input impedance of a negative feedback operational amplifier (op-amp), specifically the LM741, in a non-inverting configuration. Participants explore various approaches, definitions, and considerations related to input impedance in the context of feedback and circuit modeling.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Homework-related
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants suggest starting with the definition of input impedance and relevant equations to analyze the circuit.
  • Others emphasize the importance of understanding the model being used for the op-amp, noting that the ideal op-amp assumption of infinite input impedance may not apply.
  • A participant mentions that the input impedance of the LM741 is around 1MΩ, but questions how negative feedback affects this value.
  • Some argue that negative feedback typically increases input impedance, while others contend that in the case of the LM741, feedback does not significantly impact the non-inverting input impedance.
  • There are suggestions to refer to the LM741 datasheet for typical specifications and to consider the internal parameters of the op-amp.
  • One participant proposes that the input impedance of an amplifier with feedback can be increased by a factor related to the loop gain.
  • Discussions include the need for clarity regarding the depth of analysis and the specific circuit configuration being considered.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the impact of negative feedback on input impedance, with no consensus reached on how it applies specifically to the LM741 in this configuration. Some participants agree on the need for a clear model and understanding of the circuit, while others highlight the complexity of the topic.

Contextual Notes

There are unresolved assumptions regarding the specific circuit configuration and the parameters being used in the analysis. The discussion reflects varying levels of understanding and modeling approaches among participants.

  • #31
LvW said:
Just for the sake of accuracy - you are not correct.
The input resistance of a non-inv. opamp configuration will be, of course, increase due to negative feedback. In your reasoning you are using "infinity" which is not realistic.
It is another question if the formal calculation of the enlargement of the input impedance is important - if compared with real conditions (see my separate answer, post#28). But it is simply false to state that "negative feedback does not effect its input impedance".

Of course, infinite impedance does not actually exist, I just tried to use a mathematical model, so I don't think this is incorrect, but it can be said that it does not accurately describe the actual situation. For example, we cannot say that the calculation results obtained by using an ideal voltage source, an ideal current source, or an ideal transformer are incorrect because they are unrealistic. If they are incorrect, then it seems that we should not apply them extensively in textbooks. I just want to use it to describe a situation, that is, a thing is already big, and if we add it, the actual effect will not change.

As for the benefits of increasing the input impedance, this is of course subjective, which will vary according to different people's opinions and application conditions.
 
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  • #32
The following nanopower operational amplifier is an interesting example.

https://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/tlv8802.pdf?ts=1633508956509&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ti.com%2Fproduct%2FLMP91002

Its specifications do not specify input resistance, so users can only assume that its input resistance is close to infinity during the design process.

Of course, it also has input bias current and input capacitance. The bias current is extremely low, about 100fA. The input differential mode capacitance and common mode capacitance are 7pf and 3pf respectively, and these capacitive reactances are almost negligible in the case of extremely low frequency operation. 🐻
 
  • #33
alan123hk said:
Its specifications do not specify input resistance, so users can only assume that its input resistance is close to infinity during the design process.
No! The designer should assume that the input impedance hasn't been characterized. They should assume that:

1) It isn't a required screening in manufacturing.

or

2) The marketing people didn't think it was worth the effort to do the characterization and to publish it in the "typical" section.

There is a difference between unknown, unpublished, zero, and infinite. There are many, many times in my career that I had to deal with uncharacterized or poorly characterized performance specs that mattered to me but not so much to the mass market. This is why the BOM at EVERY reputable manufacturer has approved suppliers for each individual part. Just because the parts have the same (or very similar) part numbers or data sheets, doesn't mean they are the same.

As an aside, one of the things they never teach EEs in school is how data sheets are made, what they mean, and how to use them. They are primarily a marketing document.
 

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