Gaining a Better Understanding of Special Relativity

Urmi Roy
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Hi,

I've been doing the very basics of special relativity lately,and there seem to be some points that most people I know don't really understand or know for certain.As a result I've been completely confused about them,and I could really do with some expert help on them.

Firstly, in my book it says that all the results of special relativity ultimately owe their existence to the relativity of simultaneity.However, thinking about the famous train platform thought experiment I can't get down to explaining time dilation with it.

Also,in the muon experiment(which everyone must be knowing,so I won't describe it),I see the muon's clock to be running slow,so I see it living longer than it should (in my frame of reference).
But the strange thing is that the muon actually doesn't have a clock (which I can observe) to help me detect its slowly running time!
So how do I know (without the muon actually having any clock on it) that its time is really running slow?

The fact is that anyone--even one who doesn't have any knowledge of special relativity whatsoever sees this pheomeon occur and can easily see that the muons survive longer than they should,if allowed to.

Please help me out in this.
 
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Muon expt
The clock on muon runs slower when you see it through your F.O.R. This means(and will always mean) that every process of muon that proceeds in time slows down. The decaying of muon is one such process and hence it slows down i.e half life dilates/increases and more such particles are detected.

If you consider a biological cell, time taken to complete the cell cyle increases. If you consider a television, the time taken for a programme increases (say 30 min to 30.2 min).

Note that their clock slows down but you notice it.
 
Urmi Roy said:
Also,in the muon experiment(which everyone must be knowing,so I won't describe it),I see the muon's clock to be running slow,so I see it living longer than it should (in my frame of reference).
But the strange thing is that the muon actually doesn't have a clock (which I can observe) to help me detect its slowly running time!
So how do I know (without the muon actually having any clock on it) that its time is really running slow?

You "know" it the same way you "know" anything in science. Science develops and tests models to describe what we observe occurring in the natural world. The specifics of how time passes at different velocities is thoroughly tested by all kinds of different experiments and observations, and as a result we have the equations of relativity to describe what occurs. A clock is anything that measures time. This includes atomic clocks which test relativity by being flown around the world on airliners, or muons that have a certain time linked decay rate.

You can't "know" it as an absolute truth. But in so far as we know anything in science, time passes more slowly at high speed, and muons and everything else we've been able to test behaves as described with this model.

Cheers -- sylas
 
From what you people said, it seems easy enough, but special relativity itself is so strange and amazing that it takes a while to get used to it.

I was just thinking that perhaps in nature we always see the speed of light as 'c' so the light which is being emitted by the muon can also reach us at a constant rate only; and so it informs us of the muon's journey at that fixed rate.
Since the muon is traveling towards me its light should (by common sense)come toward me at velocity 'c+ v' (v is velocity of muon) but since the light cannot in reality move at this speed, it moves the distance (c+v)*(ideal lifetime of muon which is 2 micro seconds) at its own speed.This obviously takes more than 2 microseconds and so,by the time light does reach us, we find its duration of travel more han 2 micro seconds -----which is time dilation.

This must sound really crazy, but,as I said, it takes a while to get used to these bizarre consequences of relativity.

Another big problem is that with this dispute between what is true and what isn't , it really isn't clear whether one twin in the twin paradox does really grow older than the other-or whether this effect lasts only during the eperiment itself.

Please do send in some help!
 
Urmi Roy said:
From what you people said, it seems easy enough, but special relativity itself is so strange and amazing that it takes a while to get used to it.

That's for sure. But stick with it.

I was just thinking that perhaps in nature we always see the speed of light as 'c' so the light which is being emitted by the muon can also reach us at a constant rate only; and so it informs us of the muon's journey at that fixed rate.

The muon experiment has nothing to do with light; it is purely about the time that muons exist. Muons are unstable and they exist for only a very short time. The time is well known, and it is much much longer than it takes for muons to get to the surface of the Earth from where they are formed by cosmic rays in the atmosphere. But because they travel so close to the speed of light, time passes more slowly for them, which they can reach the surface. Measures of number of muons and cosmic rays are -- like every other experiment trying to test this theory -- explained by the change the rate at which time passes with velocity.

Another big problem is that with this dispute between what is true and what isn't , it really isn't clear whether one twin in the twin paradox does really grow older than the other-or whether this effect lasts only during the eperiment itself.

Please do send in some help!

It's a problem for a student to learn; and I appreciate that. It is also counter intuitive, in the sense that it doesn't fit the intuitions we form from our own experience of small velocities. But the theory itself is crystal clear in its own right. You just have to learn it; and that takes time. We can answer questions, but ultimately you will need to do a bit of study yourself and read up more on the theory. When you get to the point of being able to apply the theory for yourself to a given problem, you have a change of it starting to make more sense to you. As far as special relativity goes, this is actually not very difficult, in a technical sense.

Cheers -- sylas
 
Another big problem is that with this dispute between what is true and what isn't , it really isn't clear whether one twin in the twin paradox does really grow older than the other-or whether this effect lasts only during the eperiment itself.

This paradoxical experiment is not under the regime of special theory of relativity because. When one twin starts her journey from rest she is infact accelerating. Again when she tries to turn to meet her sister again shen changes her velocity changes and she accelerates. SR works only for inertial i.e non-accelerating frames.

It requires general theory of relativity which involves so much complications that mathematical physicists haven't found time to solve this paradox.

But its for sure that another Einstein will change the scene as it appears now.
 
superkan619 said:
This paradoxical experiment is not under the regime of special theory of relativity because. When one twin starts her journey from rest she is infact accelerating. Again when she tries to turn to meet her sister again shen changes her velocity changes and she accelerates. SR works only for inertial i.e non-accelerating frames.

It requires general theory of relativity which involves so much complications that mathematical physicists haven't found time to solve this paradox.

But its for sure that another Einstein will change the scene as it appears now.

Incorrect, in all respects.

Special relativity handles acceleration just fine, and the twin "paradox" is easily and simply solved using special relativity alone. It was NEVER a "paradox", merely an interesting consequence of special relativity that trips up people thinking in terms of mistaken intuitions only, without actually using the straightforward calculation.

Where you need the general theory is not with acceleration, but with gravity. In fact, the general theory is derived by using an equivalence of gravity with acceleration under special relativity.

Also, general relativity is more complicated to be sure; but it is not so complicated that it takes up any particular amount of extra time once you've put in the time to learn it.

Cheers -- sylas
 
Thanks for you expert help.

I'll be looking forward to further assistance in the near future.

Sorry if my questions are a bit dumb,since I've only just passed high school and I just did a bit of extra reading on special relativity before getting into engineering college.
 
Urmi Roy said:
Thanks for you expert help.

I'll be looking forward to further assistance in the near future.

Sorry if my questions are a bit dumb,since I've only just passed high school and I just did a bit of extra reading on special relativity before getting into engineering college.

Me too the same thing...
 
  • #10
sylas said:
In fact, the general theory is derived by using an equivalence of gravity with acceleration under special relativity.

I wish I could have referenced this statement in my reserach paper.
 
  • #11
sylas said:
Also, general relativity is more complicated to be sure; but it is not so complicated that it takes up any particular amount of extra time once you've put in the time to learn it.

Thank you sylas, p'haps you are mathematical buddy well equipped with Tensor calculus. I haven't yet started my course in vector calculus. By "extra time" I don't mean solving some tensorical equations, but thinking out of GR. To remove its absoluteness of S-T, energy anomaly, to completely (and physically) formulate and prove the General Principle of relativity(key to twin paradox).

So far as the twin paradox is concerned, dozens say they have solved it but no one has been able to put away with the unusual consequence that preferential F.O.R do exist.

No inertial frame is naturally more preferred in SR.
No frame of any kind is naturally more preferred.(GenPrinRel)------>here arises the problem.
 
  • #12
From what you people said, it seems easy enough, but special relativity itself is so strange and amazing that it takes a while to get used to it.

This idea "strange and amazing" applies to a lot of science...the more you learn the stranger science gets. Keep that in mind! Time, space and energy are not absolutes..they depend on your frame of reference. Even "worse" everything is "uncertain" no matter how perfect our instruments...even the hardest,toughest metal is 99.99999% "empty space"...

And if you get to quantum mechanics things get even crazier, meaning not intuitive, not consistent with our everyday senses.

Richard Feynman once said something close to "Nobody understands quantum mechanics" and may have also authored "shut up and compute" (I think) meaning that we could argue forever about what the math means, but we can all agree on the correct computations...
 
  • #13
Urmi Roy said:
But the strange thing is that the muon actually doesn't have a clock (which I can observe) to help me detect its slowly running time!
It does have an observable clock: its decay time. It is not a terribly accurate clock for a single muon, but take a few million muons and the half-life is well known to high precision.
 
  • #14
superkan619 said:
So far as the twin paradox is concerned, dozens say they have solved it but no one has been able to put away with the unusual consequence that preferential F.O.R do exist.

All that is needed to "resolve" the Twin Paradox without the introduction of a preferential F.O.R. is an understanding and application of:

1. Time dilation
2. Length contraction
3. The Relativity of Simultaneity
 
  • #15
superkan619 said:
So far as the twin paradox is concerned, dozens say they have solved it but no one has been able to put away with the unusual consequence that preferential F.O.R do exist.

No inertial frame is naturally more preferred in SR.
No frame of any kind is naturally more preferred.(GenPrinRel)------>here arises the problem.

There's no problem, except for the difficulty of any individual as they learn new ideas. The maths and concepts may be counter intuitive at first, but is not complicated or difficult or paradoxical. There is no preferred frame of reference; you can use any inertial frame you like and get precisely the same result for ages of the twins. Only one twin is an inertial frame of reference themselves, of course. The other isn't. You can use special relativity to calculate all the observations and consequences for an accelerated frame as well, but this generally involves picking an inertial frame (any frame will do, none is preferred) to calculate observations and proper time for the twin that is not inertial. Obviously, you don't do it by thinking they are equivalent to an inertial frame, and if you think there is a preferred frame, then you simply don't understand the maths yet.

That can be fixed... as long as you have the elementary common sense to recognize that perhaps you might NEED to learn something about it before making grand pronouncements.

Cheers -- sylas

PS. I am not good with tensors or GR myself. But I do know SR. And in my opinion, the best first step is simply the Lorentz transformation. "Time dilation" and relativity of simultaneity and all the rest are consequences, but you are better to use the Lorentz transformations directly.

PPS. My apologies if I am stating what you already know. Your comments are not entirely clear to me. When you say "no one has been able to" do whatever it is you think they should do, this makes no sense. You can use GR to describe the accelerated frame if you like, but this is overkill for the problem.
 
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  • #16
"I often say that when you can measure something and express it in numbers, you know something about it. When you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meager and unsatisfactory kind. It may be the
beginning of knowledge, but you have scarcely in your thoughts advanced to the stage of science, whatever it may be."--Lord Kelvin

I accept of my faulty remarks about preferential F.O.Rs.

sylas said:
Only one twin is an inertial frame of reference themselves, of course. The other isn't. You can use special relativity to calculate all the observations and consequences for an accelerated frame as well, but this generally involves picking an inertial frame

For two twins, one accelerating without giving the other some acceleration is impossible. The acceleration is not even a small one in magnitude to be approximated.

sylas said:
Incorrect, in all respects.

Thats the clear reason why I supposed it to be out of SR(although GR depends on SR). Frankly, now I myself is imposed upon a question that if there were three twins, so that the third's acceleration cancels the acceleration of the observer twin, then what might happen?

There is truly something that is forcing me (since 2 yrs) to enquire about what may be called the 4th point in Mr. Janus' list.
I realize it (humbly!) that u guys are tougher than me, really. I've just finished my high school where even S relativity hasn't been taught to us. So, my experiences with SR and GR are more physical than mathematical. Thankx to PF, I am going to refer a more detailed book on it. Please accept me as a kid enquiring about what he loves. I just wanted to expose some of my thinkings(may be childish) to you guys. The concept of cartesian space(PS Don't confuse it with any geometry i.e Euclidean or Reimmanian; also not with an empty set of axes) is one such thing which some of you might be thinking of as a grand pronouncement for you. Thats not the spirit of physics. Forgive the superkan.


Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where there is no path and
leave a trail.-----Ralph Waldo Emerson
 
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  • #17
superkan619 said:
For two twins, one accelerating without giving the other some acceleration is impossible. The acceleration is not even a small one in magnitude to be approximated.

Nonsense.

Thats the clear reason why I supposed it to be out of SR(although GR depends on SR). Frankly, now I myself is imposed upon a question that if there were three twins, so that the third's acceleration cancels the acceleration of the observer twin, then what might happen?

The motions of a twin are not altered simply by the existence or otherwise of other twins.

I realize it (humbly!) that u guys are tougher than me, really. I've just finished my high school where even S relativity hasn't been taught to us.

It's not a matter of being "tougher"; it's just a matter of learning more about it. Don't be put off by my rather terse answers. You can learn about this stuff; and that's what you really need to do. It's well worth the effort; and understanding it better makes it more fun, in my opinion!

Good luck with it -- sylas
 
  • #18
sylas said:
Nonsense.

Please be articulate about what you speak! that's a good old Newtonian concept. When one twin starts her rocket/jetpack she pushes the platform/planet where both the twins were initially standing. Further we will like the acceleration to be from 0 to 0.9c, that's not a small one.

sylas said:
The motions of a twin are not altered simply by the existence or otherwise of other twins.

I think its mistake in my explaining (most probably) or your understanding of the twin paradox. Suppose now that the three twins are standing on the same planet. Two of them start their rockets from diametrically opposite places. In such a case the recoils cancel each other and If we don't talk about the third one It reduces to a problem as you stated earlier with one inertial twin.
 
  • #19
sylas said:
It's not a matter of being "tougher"; it's just a matter of learning more about it.
Good luck with it -- sylas


The matter of learning more is what I consider to be "tougher". It was a nice time being with you. Fools talk too much b4 doing much. That is what is the problem with me[God save thy superkan]. I appreciate your understanding of SR and the twin paradox. Let's close this discussion!

Good luck to you Bro!
 
  • #20
superkan619 said:
Please be articulate about what you speak! that's a good old Newtonian concept. When one twin starts her rocket/jetpack she pushes the platform/planet where both the twins were initially standing. Further we will like the acceleration to be from 0 to 0.9c, that's not a small one.

You can deal with this case, with SR as well... but it adds nothing particularly relevant to what is actually of concern with the twin problem. In the conventional problem, a twin has a space ship, rather than using the other twin as reaction mass.
 
  • #21
Please help me out with this situation in special relativity...
Train-platform experiment(there's an article in wikipedia about it in the page 'relativity of simultaneity').

Suppose Sally is in the middle of a train with a source of light. The source emits light pulses,one toward the front of the moving train and the other towards the back.

Sam also has a similar apparatus,but he is standing on the platform.

Sam observes that Sally's clock are running slow and to him the light pulse moving toward the back of the train reaches the back before the other pulse reaches the front(since the front of the train is moving away from the light pulse which is coming towards it).

The train is also length contracted to Sam,because he locates the front and back of the train at different times(it is not possible to simultaneously note the positions of the front and back of a moving train).

Sally interprets Sam's observations by saying that Sam's clocks were not synchronised properly and so he measured a greater amount of time for her to completely pass the platform.Also,she realizes that Sam measured the time she first appeared at the platform and the time she left it at different times so his calculation resulted in a shorter length than it should be(from her reference frame).
Since Sam is moving (when viewed from Sally's reference frame), the platform is length contracted for Sally.Just as Sam sees Sally's clock running slow,Sally also sees Sam's clock running slow.Sally also sees that the pulses of light in Sam's apparatus do not reach simultaneously.
But the problem is that if Sally says that Sam's clocks aren't even synchronised properly,how can she say that his clocks are running slow? Besides, how is it possible for the platform to seem length contracted to Sally?
 
  • #22
No answers?
 
  • #23
Urmi Roy said:
Please help me out with this situation in special relativity...
Train-platform experiment(there's an article in wikipedia about it in the page 'relativity of simultaneity').

Suppose Sally is in the middle of a train with a source of light. The source emits light pulses,one toward the front of the moving train and the other towards the back.

Sam also has a similar apparatus,but he is standing on the platform.

Sam observes that Sally's clock are running slow and to him the light pulse moving toward the back of the train reaches the back before the other pulse reaches the front(since the front of the train is moving away from the light pulse which is coming towards it).

The train is also length contracted to Sam,because he locates the front and back of the train at different times(it is not possible to simultaneously note the positions of the front and back of a moving train).

Sally interprets Sam's observations by saying that Sam's clocks were not synchronised properly and so he measured a greater amount of time for her to completely pass the platform.Also,she realizes that Sam measured the time she first appeared at the platform and the time she left it at different times so his calculation resulted in a shorter length than it should be(from her reference frame).
Since Sam is moving (when viewed from Sally's reference frame), the platform is length contracted for Sally.Just as Sam sees Sally's clock running slow,Sally also sees Sam's clock running slow.Sally also sees that the pulses of light in Sam's apparatus do not reach simultaneously.
But the problem is that if Sally says that Sam's clocks aren't even synchronised properly,how can she say that his clocks are running slow? Besides, how is it possible for the platform to seem length contracted to Sally?

All the consequences follow from the Lorentz transformations. I don't understand what problem you have, apart from it just being counter intuitive. The wikipage describes it well. Relativity of simultaneity.
 
  • #24
I've found a webpage from VirginiaTech explaining the twin paradox.

Please look through it,if you are interested.

The site's name is http://www.phys.vt.edu/~jhs/faq/twins.html

There's only one point in the explanation which I don't understand.The explanation seems to be the same as the explanation of other paradoxes like the train-tunnel paradox and the pole-barn paradox,so is the twin paradox just analogous to these other paradoxes,only applied to a different situation, or is there something very different that singles it out?

The acceleration of the traveling twin is not considered essential in the text given in the site and it gives us an explanation of the paradox without any acceleration at all right at the end.
However, it keeps on stating that there are three reference frames in this example rather than two.

(I found an analogous explanation of the train-tunnel paradox, which seems the same as that of the one I referred to in the above lines,here it is --

http://in.answers.yahoo.com/questio...U_p0Hh6RHQx.;_ylv=3?qid=20081230070753AAnHw6W

I just wanted to make sure if the explanation of the train-tunnel experiment as given here is analogous to that of the twin paradox as given in the Virgini Tech site,only applied to two different situations.)
 
  • #25
Urmi Roy said:
I just wanted to make sure if the explanation of the train-tunnel experiment as given here is analogous to that of the twin paradox as given in the Virgini Tech site,only applied to two different situations.)

They are different. The train tunnel involves two inertial frames. The traveling twins involves one inertial frame and an accelerated frame. If you have a very short acceleration period to turn the traveling twin around, then the twin problem has effectively three inertial frames:
  • Stay at home twin frame
  • Outward bound twin frame
  • inward bound twin frame
The tunnel "paradox" has inertial frames for the train and for the tunnel.

Cheers -- sylas
 
  • #26
sylas said:
They are different. The train tunnel involves two inertial frames. If you have a very short acceleration period to turn the traveling twin around, then the twin problem has effectively three inertial frames.

I understand this basic difference, but at the end of the day,it seems to have no bearing on the situation itself.

Exactly how or at which point does the drastic difference between the two paradoxes come in?

The explanation for the train-tunnel experiment seems to apply for the onward journey and the home-coming journey (in twin paradox) individually,and all we're doing is to repeat the explanation for each of the journeys--so it is the same(as the train-tunnel paradox),only its done twice for the twin paradox and once for the train-tunnel experiment.
 
  • #27
Urmi Roy said:
I understand this basic difference, but at the end of the day,it seems to have no bearing on the situation itself.

Exactly how or at which point does the drastic difference between the two paradoxes come in?

The explanation for the train-tunnel experiment seems to apply for the onward journey and the home-coming journey (in twin paradox) individually,and all we're doing is to repeat the explanation for each of the journeys--so it is the same(as the train-tunnel paradox),only its done twice for the twin paradox and once for the train-tunnel experiment.

It's all solved with the same physics theory, of course; but you asked about three frames of reference rather than two. That's because one paradox requires three; the other doesn't.

One is dealing with relativity of simultaneity; the other is dealing with proper time on different world lines between the same point.

So it's a different problem, but it's still all solved with the same physics.
 
  • #28
From what Sylas stated in the last post, there doesn't seem to be any of that tremendous 'dissymmetry' in the twin paradox which ,makes it so very unique.

In other words, the twin paradox is unique in only that it involves a little more lengthy a process than the other paradox.
 
  • #29
Urmi Roy said:
From what Sylas stated in the last post, there doesn't seem to be any of that tremendous 'dissymmetry' in the twin paradox which ,makes it so very unique.

In other words, the twin paradox is unique in only that it involves a little more lengthy a process than the other paradox.

Not how I would put it; as should have been clear in my first post. They really are different problems and different situations, for all that the same physics can be used to solve each problem.

In fact, it may be actively misleading to describe them as similar. In the tunnel problem, the two observers have a symmetrically equivalent experience. In the twins problem, the two observers DON'T have a symmetrical experience. Nearly all the confusion of people with the twins problem arises precisely because they think that the experience of the two twins is symmetrical in much the same way as the tunnel and train are symmetrical.

That's just wrong. The twins are NOT symmetrical, which makes it a different problem.

Cheers -- sylas
 
  • #30
How is the train-tunnel thought experiment analogous to the twin paradox? The train-tunnel scenario is an illustration of the relativity of simultaneity (in one frame the event of the front of the train passing the front of the tunnel is simultaneous with the event of the back of the train passing the back of the tunnel, in other frames it isn't), whereas in the twin paradox you just want to know the age of each twin at the moment they reunite at a common location, and there are no disagreements between frames about the answer to this question since simultaneity disagreements only arise for events at different spatial locations.
 
  • #31
The twin paradox is just that both twins see the other to be ageing faster than themselves in both there and back. Then since when the twin is back they are in the same frame they got to have the same experience meaning that this is a paradox unless you consider the acceleration.
 
  • #32
Klockan3 said:
The twin paradox is just that both twins see the other to be ageing faster than themselves in both there and back. Then since when the twin is back they are in the same frame they got to have the same experience meaning that this is a paradox unless you consider the acceleration.

Awkward description there... what the twins "see" is Doppler shifted. So you don't actually "see" the same thing as given by time dilation. What ACTUALLY happens is that when twins are receding from each other, each one sees the other one aging more slowly, and when approaching each one sees the other one aging more rapidly. The difference is that the twin that turns around actually sees the other for equal durations of observed approach and recession, whereas the stay at home sees the recession phrase for longer than the approach phase.

It's not actually "acceleration" that is important. It is simply the change in frame of reference. Acceleration is how you move into a new frame of reference; but if there was some topological defect in space; a wormhole that simply reverses the direction of a passing spaceship without actually accelerating anything, then you would still get the same consequence. Likewise for a star trek like "teleporter" used to transfer into a passing ship for the return journey. All that matters is that you somehow change to a new inertial reference frame.

Cheers -- sylas
 
  • #33
sylas said:
What the twins "see" is Doppler shifted. So you don't actually "see" the same thing as given by time dilation.

Where does the doppler effect come in,now? I really didn't come across anything on the doppler effect while reading about the twin paradox--is there anything major I'm missing?

sylas said:
What ACTUALLY happens is that when twins are receding from each other, each one sees the other one aging more slowly, and when approaching each one sees the other one aging more rapidly. The difference is that the twin that turns around actually sees the other for equal durations of observed approach and recession, whereas the stay at home sees the recession phrase for longer than the approach phase.

Now, this explanation of the twin paradox doesn't resemble the one I got from the Virginia Tech website. As a beginner, you can imagine how confused I must be feeling right now!
 
  • #34
Urmi Roy said:
Where does the doppler effect come in,now? I really didn't come across anything on the doppler effect while reading about the twin paradox--is there anything major I'm missing?



Now, this explanation of the twin paradox doesn't resemble the one I got from the Virginia Tech website. As a beginner, you can imagine how confused I must be feeling right now!

Yes the Doppler effect can add an element of confusion. But if you want to know what each twin actually sees during the journey then the Doppler effect comes into play. In the case of the twins we do not really need to know what they see but in what their clocks read at the beginning and end of the journey. The Doppler effect as such has no bearing on their final clock readings when they are colocated.

Matheinste.
 
  • #35
Urmi Roy said:
Where does the doppler effect come in,now? I really didn't come across anything on the doppler effect while reading about the twin paradox--is there anything major I'm missing?

It's not anything particularly major. You spoke of what a twin "sees"; rather than what a twin calculates or infers.

What I really picked up on was the mention of "acceleration". Sometimes people think of something special happening during acceleration; but really all that matters is a change of reference frame. It's not really valid to speak of what happens to a remote twin "during" an acceleration of the other, because that implicitly brings up the notion of simultaneity, and that is a common source of errors.

The proper way to calculate the age of any twin is to integrate the proper time along their world line.

Cheers -- sylas
 
  • #36
sylas said:
It's not anything particularly major. You spoke of what a twin "sees"; rather than what a twin calculates or infers.

What I really picked up on was the mention of "acceleration". Sometimes people think of something special happening during acceleration; but really all that matters is a change of reference frame. It's not really valid to speak of what happens to a remote twin "during" an acceleration of the other, because that implicitly brings up the notion of simultaneity, and that is a common source of errors.

The proper way to calculate the age of any twin is to integrate the proper time along their world line.

Cheers -- sylas

While this last fact is absolutely true for all realistic accelerations does it not cause a problem when the obviously unrealistic instantaneous accelerations are used, as they often are for instruction purposes.

Matheinste.
 
  • #37
matheinste said:
While this last fact is absolutely true for all realistic accelerations does it not cause a problem when the obviously unrealistic instantaneous accelerations are used, as they often are for instruction purposes.

Matheinste.

On the contrary! It is particularly the case of the instantaneous acceleration when the issue of what happens "during" acceleration is most stark. The turn around point is "simultaneous" with two different events for the remote twin; depending on which frame you use. The common error is to think that the traveling twin can calculate how much the remote twin ages during the outward trip, and calculate how much the remote twin ages during the return trip, and add. This is wrong, because of the simultaneity issue I mention.

Make it concrete. A traveling twin travels at 60% light speed to a star 6 light years away, and comes back at the same speed. The traveling twin at take off is in a frame where the star is approaching them at 60% light speed from a distance of 4.8 light years. In eight years elapsed time the star arrives at the traveling twin. (In the frame of the traveller, it is the star that is moving.) At the point of arrival, the traveler infer, correctly, that the stay at home twin is "now" 6.4 years of age, and is 4.8 light years distant. However, the light they see is coming from a point 3 light years distant, at which the twin is seen to be 4 years old.

Then magic happens, and the ship reverses direction. In the new frame, the remove twin is "now" 4.8 light years distant. However, this is a different "now", in a new reference frame, because of the change in planes of simultaneity. The light the traveller sees is the same light as before, but the point from which is came is now (in the new frame) 12 light years distant. The remote twin is still seen at an age of 4 years, but the remote twin is now approaching, and the traveler can infer (correctly) that the remote twin being "now" 4.8 light years distant must have traveled 7.2 light years since the light was emitted... which takes 12 years at 60% light speed. With time dilation of 1.25, the remote twin is "now" aged 9.6 years older then when the light was emitted, so they are "now" 13.6 years old.

Hence the turn around point is simultaneous with the remote twin being 4.8 years old in one instant, and a moment later in the new return frame, the turn around point is simultaneous with the remote twin being 13.6 years old.

Very confusing! This is not an ideal way to calculate the aging of the remote twin... it's better to integrate proper time over a worldline. But if you are careful, you can do it this way as well.

Cheers -- sylas
 
  • #39
matheinste said:
While this last fact is absolutely true for all realistic accelerations does it not cause a problem when the obviously unrealistic instantaneous accelerations are used, as they often are for instruction purposes.
No, the spacetime interval is well-defined even in the case of instantaneous acceleration.
 
  • #40
Dalespam and Sylas,

I was mistakenly referring to the jump in the reading of the stay at home clock when compared with the travellers clock at the point of turnaround where the traveller changes reference frame instantaneously. For some unknown reason I was interpreting this as a jump in the traveller's proper time. My stupid mistake.

Matheinste.
 
  • #41
I read up the post on https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?p=2186296#post2186296
and also https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?p=1384776#post1384776

both by George Jones and I think I sort of got it.

However, from what I understood, the main cause of dissymmetry of the out-going and home-coming trips of the traveling twin has its explanation in the doppler effect.

Whereas during the out-going trip the traveling twin observes a lesser frequency of rotation of the home-staying twin's seconds hand (on his clock), he observes a greater frequency of rotation while coming back home.

But,I have two questions related to this-
1. I read that the direction of relative velocity of two people who are traveling at relativistic speeds does not affect their observations--meaning moving towards each other or away from each other are equivalent in relativity-thats why the formula for the lorentz factor involves a squared quantity (the ratio of velocity of the object by the velociy of light is whole squared in the formula),so the sign of relative velocity does not matter.

However,as I said, the dissymetry seems to be hinged upon the fact that the traveling twin sees different things on his outward and home-ward journeys.

2. Is this an alternate explanation to the one in Virginia Tech or is it in accordance to it?

sylas said:
Then magic happens, and the ship reverses direction. In the new frame, the remove twin is "now" 4.8 light years distant. However, this is a different "now", in a new reference frame, because of the change in planes of simultaneity. The light the traveller sees is the same light as before, but the point from which is came is now (in the new frame) 12 light years distant. The remote twin is still seen at an age of 4 years, but the remote twin is now approaching, and the traveler can infer (correctly) that the remote twin being "now" 4.8 light years distant must have traveled 7.2 light years since the light was emitted... which takes 12 years at 60% light speed. With time dilation of 1.25, the remote twin is "now" aged 9.6 years older then when the light was emitted, so they are "now" 13.6 years old.

I had some problem understanding how the distance of the light source suddenly changed when the twin turns toward home and how the homestaying twin appears to be 4 years old for the distant star and what exactly happened just after that.
 
  • #42
When I refer to the Virginia Tech website, I mean the one I gave in post number twentyfour of this thread,just in case anyone would like to refer to it.
 
  • #43
Urmi Roy said:
1. I read that the direction of relative velocity of two people who are traveling at relativistic speeds does not affect their observations--meaning moving towards each other or away from each other are equivalent in relativity-thats why the formula for the lorentz factor involves a squared quantity (the ratio of velocity of the object by the velociy of light is whole squared in the formula),so the sign of relative velocity does not matter.

It does affect "observation" (what you see) and the Doppler effect deals with that. It does not effect the factor by which time is dilated. But as pointed out before, what you "see" is not the dilation, but includes also the effects of movement.

2. Is this an alternate explanation to the one in Virginia Tech or is it in accordance to it?

It's pretty dashed close to the same explanation. We may emphasize a few aspects differently, but I had a look and it considers many of the same things. Addendum. I especially like the way they show that it is not really acceleration that matters; only the change of frame of reference.

I had some problem understanding how the distance of the light source suddenly changed when the twin turns toward home and how the homestaying twin appears to be 4 years old for the distant star and what exactly happened just after that.

This is one of the basic things about relativity. There is no absolute notion of simultaneity. If you have two events A and B with a "time like" separation, then for some observers A is simultaneous with B, and for others A is before B and for others B is before A.

Consider the situation I described previously. A traveler flies at 60% light speed to a star 6 light years distant, and then reverses and returns. The trip takes 20 years according to the stay at home twin, but 16 years according to the traveling twin.

Now consider three events
  • The stay at home twin is 4.8 years older.
  • The stay at home twin is 10 years older.
  • The stay at home twin is 13.6 years older.

Now... in the frame of reference of the stay at home twin, the arrival of the traveler at the star is simultaneous with event B. It takes another six years to "see" the arrival, of course, as the light takes that long to get back from the star and let you see it.

In the frame of reference of the outbound traveler, event A is simultaneous with the arrival at the star.

In the frame of reference of the inbound traveler, event C is simultaneous with the arrival at the star.

There's another event... D. The stay at home twin is 4 years older. This is the event that is "seen" by the traveler when they look back from the arrival event.

The distances to this event are given by Lorentz transformations. Taking the arrival event as the origin of all frames of reference, the event seen from turn around is at (-6, -6) in the stay at home frame; 6 light years distant and 6 years ago.

Now. The outbound twin has velocity 0.6c, and gamma factor is 1.25. Using the Lorentz transformations
\begin{align*}<br /> distance &amp; = 1.25 ( -6 + 0.6 \times 6 ) \\<br /> &amp; = -1.25 ( 6 - 3.6 ) \\<br /> &amp; = -1.25 \times 2.4 \\<br /> &amp; = -3<br /> \end{align*}​
The inbound twin has velocity -0.6, and the transformation gives
\begin{align*}<br /> distance &amp; = 1.25 ( -6 - 0.6 \times 6 ) \\<br /> &amp; = -1.25 ( 6 + 3.6 ) \\<br /> &amp; = -1.25 \times 9.6 \\<br /> &amp; = -12<br /> \end{align*}​

It is also interesting to look more carefully at what the traveler sees when they turn around. The remote stay at home twin was red shifted, and suddenly becomes blue shifted. Their angular size in the sky also reduces suddenly, by a factor of 4, because in the new frame the light is coming from 4 times further away.

There are some spacetime diagrams for this example here, in [post=2199430]msg #50[/post] of thread "Twin paradox - a quick(ish) question", and there are diagrams to help explain the sudden change in angular size in [post=2217788]msg #21[/post] of thread "most basic of thought experiments in special relativity".

Note that for the stay at home twin, they "see" the turn around point when they have aged 16 years, and they see no change in angular size. The shift in angular size is a sure sign that you have changed your reference frame, even if you had somehow avoided noticing the infinite acceleration with a magic warp drive of some kind.

Cheers -- sylas
 
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  • #44
I'm trying to figure it all out in my head-it might take a while--since as everyone knows,it is all a little confusing, but do keep sending in any more opinions and views that you may be having,I'll be greatly benefited!
 
  • #45
I've been working on this topic of the twin paradox for the last few days and after referring to the posts I received earlier and from references on other websites, I've finally come to a conclusion.

Here goes...

Firstly, the relativistic doppler effect (RDE)---this is basically a cumulative result of the classical doppler effect (CDE) and time dilation (TD) ,since Einstein first checked the CDE and found, when dealing with light waves, that it wasn't in accordance with his Special relativity (SR)and Maxwell's postulate for the constancy of the velocity of light,and so he edited the formula so that the modified formula gives result in accordance to SR--in other words, if we apply the classical relativity to a particular situation and then slightly modify the result by using lorentz transformation,we eventually get the same result that the RDE gives us.
(reference: http://redshift.vif.com/JournalFiles/V12NO1PDF/V12N1HAM.pdf)

In his post(https://www.physicsforums.com/showthr...76#post1384776 ), George states that the result,whether obtained by RDE or Lorentz transformation,is the same--it has to ,since the RDE was tailor-made for SR.

However,if we leave the formulae of RDE,and,as I said use CDE first,followed by time dilation formula,we see that the individual results for the doppler effect is 3 times more 'powerful' than time dilation effects.So, for a rapidly receding star, we would have TWO effects, Doppler and Time Dilation, both of which would cause us to see the spectral lines to be shifted toward the red end of the spectrum. Einstein made a Relativistic adjustment to the Doppler Effect equation to account for this Time Dilation effect.

If the star was rapidly moving toward us, The Doppler shift would be toward the BLUE end of the spectrum, while the Time Dilation shift would still be toward the red. Einstein's Relativistic Doppler formula calculates this, too, and gets a resulting red shift that is smaller that the non-Relativistic Doppler red shift would have been. It turns out that the Doppler effect is always at least three times as great as the Time Dilation effect, so Doppler always prevails.
(reference: http://mb-soft.com/public/reltvty1.html)

Now, as Sylas pointed out,in one of the previous threads, what we observe is nothing but the reception of light photons(I think page 3 of Twin paradox,a quick(ish) problem),time dilation is not what we see-the visual perception of light is governed by the doppler effect,since the doppler effect alone tells us about,'how' I may say,the light is received by us and thus it tells us exactly what we see.

In sylas' post(which is more elaborately dealt with in another thread,referring to https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?p=2217788#post2217788), he dealt emmaculately with the observations of the twins--in which,therefore,the role of the doppler effect becomes very emminent.The reason why the star suddenly appears 12 light years away to the traveling twin, at the start of the outward journey,instead of the 6 light years that it appeared to be at in the star's rest frame, is basically due to the "way" in which light is recied or percieved---this is explained very well in the example of the pin-hole camera example,given by sylas(on https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?p=2217788#post2217788).
In this example,it clearly states that the change in observation of objects,like the star,is all due to the way our perception of the light from the object changes, once there is relative motion.

I will not go into the detailed description of sylas' example,but I found a simpler approach to it(which does not,however deal with what the twins individually see).
Suppose there is a pulsar (flashing star) at a certain distance from earth,which to an earthbound observer flashes 1 time per sec.Now, a twin moves staright toward this puslar,leaving earth, and due to doppler effect,observes a greater frequency of light,2 flashes per second,and when he returns home,observes a lower frequency of 0.5 flashes per sec (=1 flash per 2 secs).
The earthbound observer sees 20 flashes from the beginning of the other twin's journey to the instant that he reaches home--so the journey took 20 seconds to the earthbound observer.
However, to the traveling twin,he sees 16 flashes while going and only 4 while coming. Thus, the outward journey took him (in his reference frame) 8 secs and so did the return journey(this comes from the different frequencies observed by him during the journey.)

Thus, by the end of the trip,the traveling twin thinks he is 16 secs old,but the earthbound observer thinks he is 20 secs old.(reference: )

This is a much more simplified version of sylas',explanation,but its purely in the point of view if the doppler effect,just like sylas said.

The explanation in the Virginia Tech website ( link provide in post 24 of this thread),is,on the other hand completely in terms of lorentz transformation---but,as George Jones said, they end up to the same result.

Now, coming to my original question, the twin paradox is very different from the train-tunnel experiment because --in the train-tunnel experiment,the two observers are only receding from each other,whereas in the twin paradox,the twins first reced from each other,then move toward each other---and,thanks to the doppler effect,they 'recieve' the light waves responsible for the visual perceprtion of these events,very differently on either journey.
The explanation on the Virginia Tech website described the entire story based on time dilation and length contraction only--that was just an alternate,but equivalent description.

sylas also stated in one of his posts that "Furthermore, the star ship passengers KNOW that that they are the ones who have changed perspective -- not the remote star -- because the star cannot have moved a large distance in negligible time. They must be looking at it from a new frame of reference. " (pg 1 https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?p=2217788#post2217788)

He says that in the case of the twin paradox,we can tell which person is moving,as opposed to other situations in SR where due to relative uniform motion,we can't tell which person is moving and which isn't---but this is again,not due to any breach of the laws of SR,but it is due to a common sense explanation,that a massive nonliving object like a star can't move all of a sudden. If we lacked this common sense,or if the star had the capability to move,like a giant living object,we could not have told who actually is moving.

This is what I think it is all about,please tell me if my basic concepts are alright,even if I haven't gone into the details.
 
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  • #46
Urmi Roy said:
He says that in the case of the twin paradox,we can tell which person is moving,as opposed to other situations in SR where due to relative uniform motion,we can't tell which person is moving and which isn't---but this is again,not due to any breach of the laws of SR,but it is due to a common sense explanation,that a massive nonliving object like a star can't move all of a sudden. If we lacked this common sense,or if the star had the capability to move,like a giant living object,we could not have told who actually is moving.

This is what I think it is all about,please tell me if my basic concepts are alright,even if I haven't gone into the details.

Thanks for the comments, I'm glad it helped. My accounts got a bit too long sometimes.

As with many essentially mathematical problems, there are many ways to get the correct solution. For example... the angular size of the image in a moving pinhole camera is reduced when the camera reverses direction to approach the object being viewed. You can derive the reduced size of the image in two ways that appear superficially different, but are actually equivalent, and refer to different equally valid points of view.

  • The image is reduced because the photons have a shorter path from the pinhole to the light detector at the rear of the camera, now that that the rear of the camera is moving towards, rather than away, from the photon stream. (Point of view of a stationary observer beside the reversing camera.)
  • The image is reduced, because the photons are now coming from much further away. (Point of view of a photographer, who is reversing direction along with their camera, and is in a new frame of reference.)

You can tell when you have moved into a new reference frame by experiencing a sudden acceleration, OR by observing a sudden change in the distances to remote objects you are observing.

The crucial point to note... it matters not a scrap whether the object is "massive" or not. No object, massive or otherwise, is transported 9 light years in a moment. Therefore the new distance is not because the object moved, but because you changed your direction in spacetime... you moved into a new frame of reference and THAT caused the change in distance.

There are other ways you can tell you were the one moving. If you have been unable to maintain observations of the remote twin, but you find on return that they have aged more than you did... then you must have been moving non-inertially. If you have been able to maintain observations of redshift and blueshift of the remote twin, then equal amounts of time of an equal and opposite redshift/blueshift is a sure sign that you were the one who reversed direction. And so on.

In brief... there are all kinds of differences between the two twins in the thought experiment where one goes out and returns at relativistic velocity while the other remains at rest, and this lack of symmetry includes differences in what they experience in acceleration, in what they observe looking at their remote partner, and in how they age. The differences can be calculated, consistently, with special relativity. There's no paradox when you actually apply the physics to the problem (and I realize you aren't claiming a paradox!) ... it is simply a case of getting one's head around how relativity works.

Cheers -- sylas
 
  • #47
Well,very cautiously, I would like to ask sylas and everyone else who has been kind enough to read this thread if you think whatever I said was 'basically' correct,since sylas didn't really point out any mistakes in the last post...have I finally got somewhere on the right track?

I won't mind waiting a few days,if it takes a while to go through my enormous post and have a quick glance at the references I provided.
 
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  • #48
Could someone spare just a little time in ascertaining whether post no. 45 doesn't have any conceptual mistakes---I need move ahead with my study of special relativity, which I can do only when I'm certain that I 've got this section right.
 
  • #49
Urmi Roy said:
sylas also stated in one of his posts that "Furthermore, the star ship passengers KNOW that that they are the ones who have changed perspective -- not the remote star -- because the star cannot have moved a large distance in negligible time. They must be looking at it from a new frame of reference. " (pg 1 https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?p=2217788#post2217788)

He says that in the case of the twin paradox,we can tell which person is moving,as opposed to other situations in SR where due to relative uniform motion,we can't tell which person is moving and which isn't---but this is again,not due to any breach of the laws of SR,but it is due to a common sense explanation,that a massive nonliving object like a star can't move all of a sudden. If we lacked this common sense,or if the star had the capability to move,like a giant living object,we could not have told who actually is moving.
It is not necessary to look at outside objects to judge if you've accelerated in SR, you can tell using an accelerometer--if you accelerate you'll feel G-forces and the accelerometer will register this, while inertial observers in SR will always feel weightless.
 
  • #50
JesseM said:
It is not necessary to look at outside objects to judge if you've accelerated in SR, you can tell using an accelerometer--if you accelerate you'll feel G-forces and the accelerometer will register this, while inertial observers in SR will always feel weightless.

I was actually assuming the ideal case where the acceleration is instantaneous and its perception is negligible.

What do you think of the rest of the explanation--do you approve of it?
 
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