Generation ships v. hibernation ships?

[Noisy Rhysling]

I'm a fan of hibernation ships because the crew that is selected to go is the crew that lands on the new world. I have a tough time seeing a crew that is 222 generations removed from the original crew being ready to investigate and develop a new planet.

However, I'm open to other views, so what are you got?

 

[Bandersnatch]

Let's see, advantages of hibernation:
+ properly trained and motivated mission crew
+ easy recruitment of stable individuals ('would you like to see another world?' vs 'would you like to spend your remaining days and die in a confined artificial environment?')
+ no need for elaborate hydroponic, entertainment, educational, and every other kind of facilities required to keep a society alive, sane, and trained for the intended mission
+ low power consumption en route
+ lower mass = lower fuel requirement = faster travel time

Whereas advantages of generation ships:
+ IS SO COOL, DUDE! I mean, a city in space, yo.

 

[Noisy Rhysling]

Better than mine. Full props, Bandersnatch. BTW, how are things on Jinx?

 

[Bandersnatch]

how are things on Jinx

Heh, I'm not the Larry Niven kind. I'm the Lewis Carroll sort.

 

[Noisy Rhysling]

Heh, I'm not the Larry Niven kind. I'm the Lewis Carroll sort.

T'was a brillig choice.

Have you seen "The Last Mimzy" or read "Mimzy Were The Borogroves"?

 

[Bandersnatch]

I can't say I have. I should definitely put it on my reading/watching list, though.

 

[phyzguy]

If you look ahead a few hundred or a few thousand years, it's easy to imagine that large numbers of people will be living in space habitats of the type envisioned in Gerard O'Neill's "The High Frontier". These structures could be quite large and quite pleasant places to live. Once people are accustomed to living there, it really doesn't change things very much for the inhabitants to propel one of these structures toward a distant star. If you go through the energetics, accelerating a space habitat up to ~1% of the speed of light seems feasible, which gets you to Alpha Centauri in about 500 years (15-20 generations). Life wouldn't be all that different for the people in the structure - they would be living in the same environment, and they would still be in constant communication with the Solar System, they just couldn't physically travel back to locations in the Solar System. So they would be giving up the opportunity to travel to other Solar System locations in exchange for access to a new solar system. Once they arrive at the new star, they could begin building new habitats and start expanding through the new system. I think many people would opt to make such a journey.

 

[Noisy Rhysling]

I can't help but thinking of the "intermediate" generations as throw-aways in generation ships.

 

[GTOM]

If you look ahead a few hundred or a few thousand years, it's easy to imagine that large numbers of people will be living in space habitats of the type envisioned in Gerard O'Neill's "The High Frontier". These structures could be quite large and quite pleasant places to live. Once people are accustomed to living there, it really doesn't change things very much for the inhabitants to propel one of these structures toward a distant star. If you go through the energetics, accelerating a space habitat up to ~1% of the speed of light seems feasible, which gets you to Alpha Centauri in about 500 years (15-20 generations). Life wouldn't be all that different for the people in the structure - they would be living in the same environment, and they would still be in constant communication with the Solar System, they just couldn't physically travel back to locations in the Solar System. So they would be giving up the opportunity to travel to other Solar System locations in exchange for access to a new solar system. Once they arrive at the new star, they could begin building new habitats and start expanding through the new system. I think many people would opt to make such a journey.

An asteroid colony don't have to maintain life support without exterior resources for hundred years. Probably a hundred people enough for a mining colony since they swap people with Earth, while a colony seed on a distant planet rather require thousands of people.

 

[phyzguy]

I can't help but thinking of the "intermediate" generations as throw-aways in generation ships.

In what way are they "throw-aways"? They will be living out full, comfortable lives. You were born here on Earth and you will die here without having achieved a new destination. Does that make you a "throw-away"?

 

[phyzguy]

An asteroid colony don't have to maintain life support without exterior resources for hundred years. Probably a hundred people enough for a mining colony since they swap people with Earth, while a colony seed on a distant planet rather require thousands of people.

I agree on the order of thousands of people would be required. Building a space habitat with comfortable room for thousands of people (or more) is quite within the realm of possibility. Obviously we are far from being able to build and maintain such a structure for hundreds of years today, but there are no physical limitations to doing so, and it is easy to imagine that we will have that capability in a few hundred years. To me this is a much more believable way of reaching the stars than trying to achieve velocities near the speed of light, which seems energetically out of reach.

 

[rootone]

Hibernation would definitely be easier to manage; less wasteful, and more effective from several viewpoints, as discussed above.
However we don't actually have a proven hibernation technology, and maybe it can't be done.
Generation ships however could be constructed with present day technology if anyone was inclined to throw enormous resources into such a project.

 

[Noisy Rhysling]

 

[jackwhirl]

However we don't actually have a proven hibernation technology, and maybe it can't be done.

I consider it far more likely to be called impractical, rather than impossible.

 

[phyzguy]

We do have the capability to freeze fertilized ova. What about robotically crewed ships that travel with a cargo of fertilized ova, then thaw the ova and raise the children to adulthood when they arrive. Far-fetched, but maybe possible?

 

[rootone]

I consider it far more likely to be called impractical, rather than impossible.

As far as I know the proposals in some sci-fi for hibernating of people involve freezing them to extremely low temperatures.
the idea being that this would cause all their biochemistry to cease, and indeed that is very likely to be the case.
The problem is in restoring the biochemistry of the now technically dead person to it's previously functioning state when they are warmed up again.

 

[Noisy Rhysling]

"Well, back in 2157 this guy invented an electromagnetic hibernation system that is completely safe..."

;)

 

[Noisy Rhysling]

We do have the capability to freeze fertilized ova. What about robotically crewed ships that travel with a cargo of fertilized ova, then thaw the ova and raise the children to adulthood when they arrive. Far-fetched, but maybe possible?

If we have robots good enough to teach them how to survive on a new planet why not just send the robots, and tell us if the planet is actually worth the trip?

 

[phyzguy]

I think the odds of us finding a nearby planet where we can survive on the surface as we do on Earth is vanishing small. We are simply too finely tuned to conditions on Earth. Look how up in arms we are about a 2 degree change in the temperature of the Earth. So I think any colonization of other solar systems will either be in space habitats or in enclosed habitats on planetary surfaces. Space habitats can be built in any solar system as long as there is starlight and raw materials.

 

[jackwhirl]

The problem is in restoring the biochemistry of the now technically dead person to it's previously functioning state when they are warmed up again.

I understand that is an as-yet-unsolved difficulty. I would still argue it is feasible in a way FTL, for example, is not.

 

[Noisy Rhysling]

I understand that is an as-yet-unsolved difficulty. I would still argue it is feasible in a way FTL, for example, is not.

It's pretty much what we're stuck with as a "best option". At least until Bergenholm gets that inertialess drive going.

 

[rootone]

I understand that is an as-yet-unsolved difficulty. I would still argue it is feasible in a way FTL, for example, is not.

Sure, the idea of reanimating a frozen corpse is not quite in the realm of violating basic physics, so as sci fi it's plausible.
I think even today companies are out there who offer to cryogenically store dead bodies for those who have died of an illness for which there is no present cure, but for which a cure may be possible in the future.
Needless to say, this survival strategy has not yet been tested in practice.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

There are big issue with generation ships that don't often get talked about. Beyond whether or not you could build it, beyond whether or not you could transplant a sustainable biosphere into it and beyond if you could design a circular industrial economy for it there's the big issue that humans aren't good at designing social institutions that outlast them.

It's all very well setting everything up perfectly but how can you ensure that X generations down the line a violent conflict, suicide cult or just plain old fascist uprising doesn't occur? In a space city of this kind the failure modes are brutal. If you loose too much infrastructure or too many labourers to keep the industry/economy/biosphere going then everyone dies. No reverting to a more simple way of living. All dead. The cultural drift problem hits at the assumptions of a generation ship too. Beyond the most idealistic reasons does anyone want to send a North Korea into space? Because for all you know the generation ship might become one.

Until someone demonstrates a closed ecosystem, economy and social structure that is reliably sustainable over thousands of years the generation ship model is a total shot in the dark.

 

[Noisy Rhysling]

And the mundane problems, as reported in "The Man Who Ran Around the World".

 

[GTOM]

Beyond the most idealistic reasons does anyone want to send a North Korea into space? Because for all you know the generation ship might become one.

Until someone demonstrates a closed ecosystem, economy and social structure that is reliably sustainable over thousands of years the generation ship model is a total shot in the dark.

IMHO, the first part can be solved, if there arent only a few people in key positions, the captain can be recalled, if there arent a close threat, if armed forces want to make a coup, the engineers can seal the doors, cut power, that gives people enough time to organize resistance.
So generally no one can run the ship without the willing cooporation of lots of different people.

 

[Noisy Rhysling]

IMHO, the first part can be solved, if there arent only a few people in key positions, the captain can be recalled, if there arent a close threat, if armed forces want to make a coup, the engineers can seal the doors, cut power, that gives people enough time to organize resistance.
So generally no one can run the ship without the willing cooporation of lots of different people.

Restraint would depend on whether or not the rebellion was based on rational thought or fired by some kind of fervor.

 

[caters]

I personally prefer generation ships. Mine is very intricate and even has a few robots. The only one I have introduced in my story so far is SwimBot. SwimBot is a robot that makes swimsuits of all types and sizes.

The hibernation is only after lots of generations. And I keep crime from happening on this ship by having universal laws that everyone should follow. The aliens have much higher tech than we do at the time(present) such as speed of half the speed of light. So to go to Alpha Centauri would take 8 years and to get out of the solar system would take 2 years(or 1 martian year).

I know the alien biology. Females start laying eggs at x years old and do it periodically. This is their oogenesis process with and without males:

With male:
Same as human oogenesis(YY eggs after fertilization are not viable)

Without male:
Basically mitosis but with genetic crossover

The difference between male and female aliens is not the genome itself(Y or no Y) but rather the expression patterns(So Y is repressed or activated in females and males respectively but is present genetically in both genders).

The aliens hatch just like reptiles or birds but they are fed milk just like mammals. They are not what I would consider monotremic though(like platypus or echidna). The females have an egg pouch to keep their eggs safe from excess heat or cold. But they have to be especially careful in their movements and hold on to as many things as possible to prevent falls so that the eggs hatch. Twins are able to successfully hatch and so are triplets. But 4 aliens in 1 egg are not able to successfully hatch(at least not all of them).

A few scientists are working on CRISPR but in the meantime, defected people can't reproduce. And I mean congenital defects. With all the genetic diversity they have in the first generation, this no defected people reproduce rule won't negatively affect the diversity of the humans. In fact it might positively affect it or it might be neutral.

I will post a separate thread about this generation ship and go into more detail about every room I have so far and why it is there as well as genetic diversity and universal laws.

 

[Noisy Rhysling]

The greater the intricacy, the greater the risk of failure. K.I.S.S. should be a law, not a principle.

 

[GTOM]

http://www.space.com/22526-astronaut-hibernation-space-travel-infographic.html

About hibernation.

 

[Noisy Rhysling]

http://www.space.com/22526-astronaut-hibernation-space-travel-infographic.html

About hibernation.

Yeah, slow the metabolism so the body lasts hundreds or thousands of years if needed. This would also be a better idea for people who want to doze while waiting for a cure for their particular physical problem is found.

 

[Pepper Mint]

Yeah, slow the metabolism so the body lasts hundreds or thousands of years if needed...

but it's not growing big also.