News Georgian - South Ossetian - Russian Conflict

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The discussion centers on the U.S. response to the conflict between Georgia and Russia, with participants questioning whether the U.S. will mediate or support Georgia. There is a consensus that Georgia initiated the fighting by attacking separatist South Ossetia, complicating the situation as Russia intervened under the guise of protecting its citizens. Participants express frustration with the perceived inaction of NATO and Europe, suggesting they should take more responsibility in addressing the conflict. The debate also touches on the historical context of the region, including the implications of NATO expansion and the legacy of Soviet influence. Overall, the conversation reflects a complex interplay of geopolitical interests, national sovereignty, and the challenges of international intervention.
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How will the USA react ? From watching CNN, I'm a bit confused - will the USA try to act as a mediator between Russia and Georgia, or will it stand firmly on Georgia's side ? What are your predictions ?
 
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What more can the US do other than sit back and watch? It's time for Europe and Nato to do something for once.
 
Greg Bernhardt said:
What more can the US do other than sit back and watch? It's time for Europe and Nato to do something for once.

Well, as far as my (german) foreign minister Frank Steinmeier is concerned, I can assure you that he did something - he asked all sides for restraint (what a suprise, eh ?) and I guess this is what he will continue to do for the next days... weeks... months...
 
Why should anyone get involved? Let the two sides fight it out.
 
Jordan Joab said:
Why should anyone get involved? Let the two sides fight it out.

That's what we said when Russia rolled into Czechoslovakia ... Great idea. :rolleyes:
 
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Greg Bernhardt said:
That's what we said when Russia rolled into Checkoslovakia... Great idea. :rolleyes:

I'm not familiar with the aftermath of that event. That country doesn't exist anymore. All I see now is a great opportunity for the US, Nato, Europe, et al to score brownie points with Russia ganging up against Georgia.
 
Jordan Joab said:
I'm not familiar with the aftermath of that event. That country doesn't exist anymore. All I see now is a great opportunity for the US, Nato, Europe, et al to score brownie points with Russia ganging up against Georgia.

I don't think that all this is about anybody ganging up against Georgia. As far as I understand it, Georgia started the fighting by attacking seperatist South Ossetia:

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/06/georgia.ossetia.ap/index.html#cnnSTCText
 
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Technically South Ossetia is a part of Georgia, so before Russian army entered the scene it was a civil war, not an international conflict.
 
I didn't know what was going on here so decided to read up on it. Apparently Georgia wants to join NATO, Russia is not cool with that, <insert bunch of non-sense here>, and now they are fighting.

I'm sure this has some political relevance. I just don't see what benefit(s) Georgia brings to the table besides a place to land American troops.

http://www.slate.com/id/2197155/
 
  • #10
Georgia want's to enter NATO as it is afraid of Russians, and not without a reason. Bordering Russia was always dangerous.
 
  • #11
Borek said:
Technically South Ossetia is a part of Georgia, so before Russian army entered the scene it was a civil war, not an international conflict.

The Russians had peacekeepers in South Ossetia (Georgia claimed that the "peacekeepers" were in fact supporting the seperatists). As far as I know, when Georgia went into South Ossetia some of them were killed. Furthemore, Russia had given Russian passports to some of the South Ossetians. I have absolutely no idea whether this was legal under international law, but anyway, again this means that Russian citizens were killed. Russian president Medvedev was referring to this on TV.
 
  • #12
Borek said:
Georgia want's to enter NATO as it is afraid of Russians, and not without a reason. Bordering Russia was always dangerous.

I think I recall from some other thread that you are from Poland, right ? In this case of course you have very good reasons to think so. And even if not, yes I think your statement is true. But in this specific case I think its really much more complicated than "small helpless country is harrassed by big country and seeks help from NATO"
 
  • #13
Russia has a lot of experience in making things look in their favor. I don't know exact details about this particular conflict, but it would not surprise me if those Russian citizens have been granted russian passports and russian citizenship in the last two or three years. It will also not surprise me if some of them - being of the true Russian nationality - were relocated to Ossetia many years ago (perhaps even by Stalin) by force, just in anticipation of similar situation, to give a good excuse to use force when needed. That's what was done in Baltic republics.

In Polish we call it politics based on fait accompli.

Edit: and yes, I am from Poland.
 
  • #14
Note: I am not saying that Georgians are only victims, they have their own agenda as well. But it is obvious that Russia doesn't want Georgia in NATO and that independent Georgia is not a thing that Russia wants to have at border. Russia supports separatists in Georgia, Russia stops gas and oil delivery, Russia stops to buy Georgia produce and so on. This is a consistent policy, these are not separate and accidental things.
 
  • #15
Greg Bernhardt said:
What more can the US do other than sit back and watch? It's time for Europe and Nato to do something for once.
Nato does stuff (Bosnia), but only when we direct them. I agree Europe needs to step up and take care of their own backyard. They say they don't like us being the world's policeman - so step up!
 
  • #16
Oberst Villa said:
I don't think that all this is about anybody ganging up against Georgia. As far as I understand it, Georgia started the fighting by attacking seperatist South Ossetia:

It has not been internationally approved to be independent country, though. Legally it is still part of Georgia as I understand.

Oberst Villa said:
The Russians had peacekeepers in South Ossetia (Georgia claimed that the "peacekeepers" were in fact supporting the seperatists). As far as I know, when Georgia went into South Ossetia some of them were killed.

Does this give Russians right to bomb pure Georgian territory? (By "pure" I mean not the conflict zone, but the areas far inside the country) There is no evidence showing that Georgians were shooting Russians. They might. But among so many people with guns, any provocation can be expected as well. In fact, there is also informational war going on: according to Georgian media Georgia has full control over Osetia, except for a single high-mountain village; while Russian media insists Russians have re-captured more than half of the territory...

Finally, if you compare sizes of Georgia & Russia, imho it's pretty clear, that Russian army can capture the entire Georgia within one night in pretty same way as Georgia did to Osetia yesterday. So better there appears some good International power which will cause both to shut up. It's strange that UN failed to make any decision for the second time...
 
  • #17
Alex:) said:
Finally, if you compare sizes of Georgia & Russia, imho it's pretty clear, that Russian army can capture the entire Georgia within one night

It won't be that easy. Most Georgia terrain lies in mountains, which makes it a very difficut military target. Sure, Russia military power will be overhelming, but Russia has learned its lesson in Afghanistan the hard way, they don't want to try again.
 
  • #18
Borek said:
It won't be that easy. Most Georgia terrain lies in mountains, which makes it a very difficut military target. Sure, Russia military power will be overhelming, but Russia has learned its lesson in Afghanistan the hard way, they don't want to try again.

I really hope that nothing that even comes close to this scenario (full scale and permanent occupation of Georgia by Russian troops) will happen. One further aspect that makes this whole mess so sad is that both Russians and Georgians are mainly orthodox christians ("most of the population of Georgia (82%) practices Orthodox Christianity and Georgian Orthodox Church is an influential institution in the country.", wiki). I'm not talking about the current events now, but the underlying conflict has been ongoing for more than a decade and obviously the leaders of the orthodox church on both sides failed to calm down the emotions. All this is very sad.
 
  • #19
This conflict dates back to Tzar's times, but current events are - to some extent - heritage of Soviet times. Soviet Russia was keeping peace in their teritory and its surroundings by force - not necesarilly used, but existing and ready to be used. In the rest of Europe things were settling down by other means - be it treaties, be it economic cooperation. Peoples Democracy camp was kept at bay because everyone was afraid of Russian Army (or neighbours armies - see Czechoslovakia in 1968), so many conflicts were not put down, but only hidden. Now they strike back.
 
  • #20
Abkhazia might join the fighting:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,570829,00.html

(Der Spiegel is a german news magazine, quite reliable).

I started googling for Abkhazia when I read reports that they already are fighting against Georgian troops, but until now I have NOT been able to confirm this by sources I consider reliable.
 
  • #21
Same information in TV news here about an hour ago. Doesn't look good.
 
  • #22
russ_watters said:
They say they don't like us being the world's policeman - so step up!
France is sending their secretary of foreign affairs. For instance. I guess it's better than military. Just an opinion.
 
  • #23
Oberst Villa said:
but until now I have NOT been able to confirm this by sources I consider reliable.

good point. could you please let me know other sources that are reliable as well?
 
  • #24
Alex:) said:
good point. could you please let me know other sources that are reliable as well?

I found something about Abkhazias involvement in the fighting in Yahoo News (how reliable they are I don't know):

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080809/ap_on_re_eu/georgia_abkhazia

Furthermore, watching CNN they say in their "Breaking" subtitle: Apkhazian provinz attacks Georgian troops.

So I think that Abkhazia is definitely part of the conflict now.

EDIT: If you are looking for reliable sources in general, I guess a good starting point would be this thread here: https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=8663
 
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  • #25
It hasn't yet come clear to me what has been the original motivation by Georgia to start the war. It seems a strange thing for a small country to pose such threat to a greater country, Russia. Anyone has information on this?

In any case, the Russia is responding to an attack by Georgia, so I don't see immediate need for someone else to step into fighting too. I mean, the Russia is at least responding to real events, that concern Russia. Elsewhere, there has been illegal wars started with imaginary causes too *cough* *cough*, and international community hasn't been doing anything then...
 
  • #26
jostpuur said:
It hasn't yet come clear to me what has been the original motivation by Georgia to start the war. It seems a strange thing for a small country to pose such threat to a greater country, Russia. Anyone has information on this?

Reread earlier posts. Technically Georgia didn't attack Russia, they tried to regain control over THEIR OWN TERITORY, occupied by Russia supported separatists,
 
  • #27
Did I understand correctly that the South Ossetians have not been interested in being part of the Georgia? So Georgia is trying to use force to keep South Ossetia as part of itself?
 
  • #28
Here's one point of view:

South Ossetian capital completely destroyed
 
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  • #29
russ_watters said:
Nato does stuff (Bosnia), but only when we direct them. I agree Europe needs to step up and take care of their own backyard. They say they don't like us being the world's policeman - so step up!
Perhaps if the US hadn't supplied Georgia with a huge arsenal of weapons and military training over the past few years Georgia wouldn't have felt emboldened enough to break the international agreements it had signed and attack the 100,000 civilians of South Ossetia and it's UN mandated peace keepers with their US supplied weaponry. So I'm not sure why you think Europe should step up to fix a problem largely of the US's making. Perhaps to avoid such problems in the future the US state department should send a memo to itself - stop selling arms to dangerous lunatics with a history of using violence to get what they want.

Oh and Borek - a nice theory about Stalin except you do of course know he was Georgian don't you as was his head of the KGB. :rolleyes:

Russia has stated it has no territorial ambitions in Georgia and that it's current campaign is to restore peace to South Ossetia by ejecting the Georgian invasion troops and so return the parties to the status quo prior to Georgia's wholly illegal act of aggression. As part of this mission they are attacking military targets outside the conflict zone which are supporting the Georgian military adventure. Afterall if Georgian artillery is firing into South Ossetia from outside then the Russians are hardly going to ignore it. The same is true for Georgian aircraft and the supply lines bringing more US munitions into Georgia. One can also assume it will be the Russian's intention to degrade Georgia's military capability so they don't try the same thing again in the future.

It really takes an enormous stretch of the imagination to portray the Georgians as the victims in this episode after their murderous onslaught against the tiny population of South Ossetia though some elements of the Western media are doing their best.

From a 2005 report -
For a country that is slightly smaller than South Carolina, with only 4.6 million citizens, Georgia receives a staggering amount of military support from the United States.

In 1997 Georgia received its first FMF grant of $700,000. In 1998, Washington increased FMF more than 7 times over, granting $5.3 million in aid. Since those first years, Georgia has received a total of $107.7 million in FMF grants.[138] The Bush administration requested an additional $12 million in the 2006 budget.[139]

Additionally, Georgia has been a recipient of International Military Education and Training funds since 1994. Between 1996 and 2001, the IMET aid hovered around $300,000 to just over $400,000 per year. And then, in 2002 the funding almost doubled to $889,000.[140] In 2003, the funding increased another 33% to $1.2 million—similar amounts were granted in 2004 and 2005.[141] The Congressional request for $1.2 million in FY 2006 represents an almost 2,000% increase in IMET aid since 1996.[142]

Both Secretary of State Colin Powell and Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld visited Georgia in 2004, pledging continued U.S. support to the country.[143]

Georgia, an aggressive force in a number of border disputes and a state with a well-documented history of human rights violations, does not seem like an ideal candidate for U.S. military aid. Human Rights Watch says the country is, "one of the most corrupt in the world, is desperately short of money, and has a record of persistent and widespread human rights abuses."[144]

The State Department agrees, finding in its most recent Human Rights Report that "nongovernmental organizations blamed two deaths in custody on physical abuse. NGOs reported that police brutality continued, and in certain areas increased. Law enforcement officers continued to torture, beat, and otherwise abuse detainees

Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili is using U.S. weapons and know-how to strengthen his grip on power and rebuff Russia. Washington is taking advantage of Georgia’s strategic location just above the volatile Middle East, deploying U.S. troops and storing equipment and fuel. Georgia has granted U.S. warplanes access to its airspace and permitted joint training exercises with Georgian troops.[146]

The result has been a cozy relationship between President Bush and President Saakashvili. Georgia is one of the few European countries that have unreservedly embraced President Bush and contributed to the U.S.-led war in Iraq.
http://www.worldpolicy.org/projects/arms/reports/wawjune2005.html#2 It would seem the US are not the objective, disinterested observers of this dispute that some here seem to believe.
 
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  • #30
This conflict was forecasted months ago -
Georgia in US-financed arms race for war on Abkhazia, South Ossetia
Transnistria Georgia is preparing for a US-financed war against Abkhazia and South Ossetia. That is what the country's military build-up reveals, according to a leading journalist and political analyst from Geneva. Since the current regime took power, Georgian military spending has effectively increased by over forty times and now has the highest growth-rate of any country in the world.
By Jason Cooper, 11/Nov/2007

TSKHINVALI (Tiraspol Times) - Despite not being at war with anyone, for the year 2007 the military budget of Georgia is showing the highest growth rate of any country in the world, with much of it being financed openly and directly by its key military partner, the United States.

As a result, fears run high in Tskhinvali these days.
The capital of the small Republic of South Ossetia is increasingly seen as the next target of Georgian military aggression, and many here worry that it is only a matter of time before enemy troops unleash an assault on the city.

Some international analysts agree. Vicken Cheterian, a journalist and political analyst who works for the non-profit governance organization CIMERA, based in Geneva, says that "Georgia's military plans reveal its ambition to reclaim the territories of Abkhazia and South Ossetia it lost in the wars of the early 1990s."

The journalist, who is a regular contributor to Le Monde Diplomatique, points out that since the "rose revolution" of 2003-04, Georgian military spending has effectively been increased by over forty times. The majority of Georgia's arms purchases are financed directly or indirectly from Washington. Salaries for Georgian soldiers have also repeatedly been paid for by American taxpayers.
http://www.tiraspoltimes.com/news/a...a_prepares_war_on_abkhazia_south_ossetia.html
Hmmm :rolleyes:

So Russ do you still see this as a European made problem which Europe should 'step up' and solve??
 
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  • #31
Borek said:
Reread earlier posts. Technically Georgia didn't attack Russia, they tried to regain control over THEIR OWN TERITORY, occupied by Russia supported separatists,
Like Serbia and Kosovo/Albania you mean? By the same deduction technically Serbia didn't attack Kosovo as it was their own territory which they were trying to regain control of from Albanian supported separatists but that didn't stop NATO intervening to give Kosovo independence. The two situations are remarkably similar only for NATO read Russia.
 
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  • #32
Borek said:
jostpuur said:
It hasn't yet come clear to me what has been the original motivation by Georgia to start the war. It seems a strange thing for a small country to pose such threat to a greater country, Russia. Anyone has information on this?
Reread earlier posts. Technically Georgia didn't attack Russia, they tried to regain control over THEIR OWN TERITORY, occupied by Russia supported separatists,

My choice of wording wasn't the clearest possible, but it is justified to say that Georgia was posing a threat to Russia, because Russian civilians and troops were killed and injured in the Georgia's attack.

However, judging by the information I've encountered so far, they are the Georgian people living in South Ossetia who have been dying mostly in Georgia's attack!

I must repeat my original question still. What has been the original motivation behind this all? This isn't making sense to me.

(editing) ouch. I see Art has just been offering some possible answer...
 
  • #33
jostpuur said:
I must repeat my original question still. What has been the original motivation behind this all? This isn't making sense to me.

(editing) ouch. I see Art has just been offering some possible answer...

I have to admit that I do not have any numbers at hand, but even with a massive increase of its military arsenal I think it highly unlikely that Georgia ever thought it could win a war against Russia. Look how fast Russia gained control over the airspace of Georgia.

Probably Georgia had the illusion that they could take South Ossetia with a fast and unbloody surprise attack. Even in this case the Russians would probably have come back into South Ossetia with armed forces, but in this case world public opinion might have looked on Russia as the agressor. And perhaps there would have been pressure on Russia to stay out of South Ossetia and instead to accept that UN troops are sent into keep the peace ?

Just a guess.
 
  • #34
Russia isn't an agressor.It was defendins s.ossetia citizens and russian peacekeepers(who was there legally) from georgia.
 
  • #35
Art said:
Perhaps if the US hadn't supplied Georgia with a huge arsenal of weapons and military training over the past few years Georgia wouldn't have felt emboldened enough to break the international agreements it had signed and attack the 100,000 civilians of South Ossetia and it's UN mandated peace keepers with their US supplied weaponry. So I'm not sure why you think Europe should step up to fix a problem largely of the US's making. Perhaps to avoid such problems in the future the US state department should send a memo to itself - stop selling arms to dangerous lunatics with a history of using violence to get what they want.

Oh and Borek - a nice theory about Stalin except you do of course know he was Georgian don't you as was his head of the KGB. :rolleyes:

Russia has stated it has no territorial ambitions in Georgia and that it's current campaign is to restore peace to South Ossetia by ejecting the Georgian invasion troops and so return the parties to the status quo prior to Georgia's wholly illegal act of aggression. As part of this mission they are attacking military targets outside the conflict zone which are supporting the Georgian military adventure. Afterall if Georgian artillery is firing into South Ossetia from outside then the Russians are hardly going to ignore it. The same is true for Georgian aircraft and the supply lines bringing more US munitions into Georgia. One can also assume it will be the Russian's intention to degrade Georgia's military capability so they don't try the same thing again in the future.

It really takes an enormous stretch of the imagination to portray the Georgians as the victims in this episode after their murderous onslaught against the tiny population of South Ossetia though some elements of the Western media are doing their best.



*START OF QUOTE FROM WWW.WORLDPOLICY.ORG*[/URL]

[I]For a country that is slightly smaller than South Carolina, with only 4.6 million citizens, Georgia receives a staggering amount of military support from the United States.

In 1997 Georgia received its first FMF grant of $700,000. In 1998, Washington increased FMF more than 7 times over, granting $5.3 million in aid. Since those first years, Georgia has received a total of $107.7 million in FMF grants.[138] The Bush administration requested an additional $12 million in the 2006 budget.[139]

Additionally, Georgia has been a recipient of International Military Education and Training funds since 1994. Between 1996 and 2001, the IMET aid hovered around $300,000 to just over $400,000 per year. And then, in 2002 the funding almost doubled to $889,000.[140] In 2003, the funding increased another 33% to $1.2 million—similar amounts were granted in 2004 and 2005.[141] The Congressional request for $1.2 million in FY 2006 represents an almost 2,000% increase in IMET aid since 1996.[142]

Both Secretary of State Colin Powell and Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld visited Georgia in 2004, pledging continued U.S. support to the country.[143]

Georgia, an aggressive force in a number of border disputes and a state with a well-documented history of human rights violations, does not seem like an ideal candidate for U.S. military aid. Human Rights Watch says the country is, "one of the most corrupt in the world, is desperately short of money, and has a record of persistent and widespread human rights abuses."[144]

The State Department agrees, finding in its most recent Human Rights Report that "nongovernmental organizations blamed two deaths in custody on physical abuse. NGOs reported that police brutality continued, and in certain areas increased. Law enforcement officers continued to torture, beat, and otherwise abuse detainees

Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili is using U.S. weapons and know-how to strengthen his grip on power and rebuff Russia. Washington is taking advantage of Georgia’s strategic location just above the volatile Middle East, deploying U.S. troops and storing equipment and fuel. Georgia has granted U.S. warplanes access to its airspace and permitted joint training exercises with Georgian troops.[146]

The result has been a cozy relationship between President Bush and President Saakashvili. Georgia is one of the few European countries that have unreservedly embraced President Bush and contributed to the U.S.-led war in Iraq.[/I]

*END OF QUOTE FROM [PLAIN]WWW.WORLDPOLICY.ORG*[/URL]



From a 2005 report - http://www.worldpolicy.org/projects/arms/reports/wawjune2005.html#2 It would seem the US are not the objective, disinterested observers of this dispute that some here seem to believe.[/QUOTE]


The statement "Georgia, an aggressive force in a number of border disputes and a state with a well-documented history of human rights violations, does not seem like an ideal candidate for U.S. military aid." is certainly quite relevant for this discussion. However, I never had a look at [url]www.worldpolicy.org[/url] before - could anybody comment on it, I mean, do you consider it a credible source ?
 
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  • #36
Oberst Villa said:
The statement "Georgia, an aggressive force in a number of border disputes and a state with a well-documented history of human rights violations, does not seem like an ideal candidate for U.S. military aid." is certainly quite relevant for this discussion. However, I never had a look at www.wordpolicy.org[/URL] before - could anybody comment on it, I mean, do you consider it a credible source ?[/QUOTE]

I can't say anything about wordpolicy.org, (neither wor[b]l[/b]dpolicy.org) but afaik, after revolution in Georgia it slowly became less and less corrupt. It is always possible to refer to an extensive history of human rights violations, but things have changed dramatically in 2003/2004 and are constantly changing.
 
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  • #37
OK, but what about the part "Georgia, an aggressive force in a number of border disputes" - would you say that this is a fair assessment ?
 
  • #38
Oberst Villa said:
OK, but what about the part "Georgia, an aggressive force in a number of border disputes" - would you say that this is a fair assessment ?

no comment. If there are references to reliable documentation - one can review it and make a decision. Otherwise, it is a wordplay and the website is not trustworthy.
 
  • #39
jostpuur said:
It hasn't yet come clear to me what has been the original motivation by Georgia to start the war. It seems a strange thing for a small country to pose such threat to a greater country, Russia. Anyone has information on this?

The Ossetian district has been a site for separatists and terrorists who threaten the proposed http://www.progress.org/fpif11.htm" from the Caspian oil fields through Georgia and terminating in Turkey.

But other motives became apparent, although largely unnoticed by the Western press when Georgian Defense Ministry official Mirian Kiknadze told Radio Free Europe on February 27: "The U.S. military will train our rapid reaction force, which is guarding strategic sites in Georgia -- particularly oil pipelines." He was referring to the embryonic Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan (BTC) project, set to reduce Georgia's and Azerbaijan's energy reliance on Russia and bring the southern Caucasus into the U.S. fold.

Russia's military establishment and domestic opinion are clearly furious, although President Putin has played soft on the issue, delighted to see his Chechen suppression campaign rebranded as a "war on terror" in return for supporting the U.S. war against Afghanistan.

"It is hard to see why Russia should react so angrily to a U.S. operation promising to neutralize not just al Qaeda fighters but also Putin's longtime Chechen bogeys," said Hovann Simonian, author of the acclaimed Troubled Waters: The Geopolitics of Caspian Oil. "The U.S. training force is unlikely to make much difference given the parlous state of the Georgian military. Clearly this is not simply about fighting terror," Simonian added.

Washington has recently injected fresh momentum into its Caspian designs, home to the world's third-largest oil and gas deposits. Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage emphatically re-affirmed U.S. support for BTC on March 8 during the visit of Turkish premier Bulent Ecevit. Four days later U.S. Caspian envoy Stephen Mann told Kazakh authorities he wanted to promote pipelines bypassing Iran.

The US has a long history of dealing with regimes of questionable ethics where oil is concerned.
 
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  • #40
Oberst Villa said:
The statement "Georgia, an aggressive force in a number of border disputes and a state with a well-documented history of human rights violations, does not seem like an ideal candidate for U.S. military aid." is certainly quite relevant for this discussion. However, I never had a look at www.worldpolicy.org before - could anybody comment on it, I mean, do you consider it a credible source ?
What part do you wish to question? The references to human rights violations are supported by Amnesty internationals 2008 report which as an example includes the following from the UN Human Rights Committee

In October the UN Human Rights Committee expressed concern about torture and other ill-treatment, prison conditions, interference with the independence of the judiciary, domestic violence, reports of forced evictions of internally displaced people and violations of the rights of ethnic minorities. The Committee called on Georgia to draft and implement a comprehensive action plan against torture and other ill-treatment, to investigate allegations and bring perpetrators to justice, and to ensure that victims had access to reparation including compensation. It urged Georgia to investigate women’s complaints of violence and bring perpetrators to justice, and to establish sufficient shelters for those escaping domestic violence.
http://thereport.amnesty.org/eng/regions/europe-and-central-asia/georgia

If it is America's assistance to Georgia you wish to question then the aid referenced is public knowledge and I refer you to the US State Dept's own website http://www.state.gov/p/eur/rls/fs/66198.htm

Whilst the border disputes and the aggressive attempts to resolve them are simply historical facts as witnessed by the viciousness of the civil war which erupted in the early 90's following the breakup of the USSR which led to the peace agreement in 1994 which Georgia decided to violate last Friday.

It is interesting that when Russia asked for an emergency meeting of the UNSC on Friday night to draft an immediate demand for a ceasefire both the US and the UK stalled any resolution being passed presumably to allow Georgia to complete it's mission yet now that Russia have responded with military force the US and the UK are screaming for a ceasefire. The US and Britains interests are far from altruistic as they want Georgia in NATO to further develop their encirclement of Russia but the NATO charter states any prospective members must have recognised and secure borders and so following the rejection of Georgia's membership bid by the other member states until the separatist issues were resolved it seems that Georgia possibly at the prompting of the US and the UK decided to try and 'resolve' it's border disputes by the use of force. Unfortunately for them the analysts who advise on such matters badly underestimated Russia's response time and resolve and so it would now appear Georgia's territorial disputes will indeed be settled but not along the lines they anticipated.
 
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  • #41
Georgia attacked s.osettia because us said to did it.Everyone knows that there is puppet us government in georgia and usa already invested a lot amount of money in georgia,so now georgia must work every $ invested.There are a couple of reasons to attack s.ossetia.First,to support mackein,he says that russia is an agressor,and s.ossetia conflict proves it.Second, to raise up the cost of currencies in russia,that means to make ruble fall.
 
  • #42
It seems the dialogue between the US and Russia is becoming quite heated,

Russia seeking regime change in Georgia: US

6 hours ago

UNITED NATIONS (AFP) — The United States on Sunday accused Russia of seeking regime change in Georgia as it pushed the UN Security Council to call for a ceasefire in the widening Caucasus conflict.

In highly contentious exchanges with his Russian counterpart Vitaly Churkin reminiscent of the Cold War, US Ambassador Zalmay Khalilzad told the Council that Moscow was seeking "regime change" in Tbilisi and waging "a campaign of terror" in Georgia.
It seems the irony was not lost on the Russian UN ambassador
"This is completely unacceptable, especially from the lips of a representative of a country whose actions we are aware of in Iraq, Afghanistan and Serbia," he responded.
http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5gwImAqSKkedSA8GjOuadBJT0Np4Q

NATO chief says Russia used excessive force

BRUSSELS, Belgium: NATO's Secretary General criticized Russia Sunday for violating the "territorial integrity" of Georgia and urged the warring sides to observe an immediate cease-fire in South Ossetia.

Jaap de Hoop Scheffer said he was concerned about the "disproportionate" use of force, in an apparent reference to Russian shelling and air attacks on Georgian troops.

In NATO's first substantive comments about the fighting in South Ossetia since hostilities began Friday, De Hoop Scheffer called for talks aimed at restoring Georgian control over its breakaway province.

He said the deployment of Russian combat troops in South Ossetia showed "a lack of respect for the territorial integrity of Georgia," according to comments relayed by NATO spokeswoman Carmen Romero.
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/08/10/europe/EU-NATO-Georgia-South-Ossetia.php

One wonders where De Hoop Scheffer was when Israel was pounding the Lebanon as he made no calls for a ceasefire or condemnation of disproportionate force during that conflict.

The hypocrisy of our Western leaders is truly sickening. Over the past several years western military adventurism and their desire to achieve short term goals in defiance of international laws has established some very important and very undesirable precedents the results of which are becoming apparent. This blatant disregard of international law has left a vacuum which has been replaced with a might is right philosophy which can only lead to ever more turmoil in the world.
 
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  • #43
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7552908.stm Georgia move fails to halt raids

Georgia insists that all its forces are now outside South Ossetia

President Saakashvili told the BBC his forces had observed a ceasefire since 0500 on Sunday morning, but had still been bombed by Russian planes. He said his government had been trying "all day" to contact Russia to discuss a ceasefire.

Georgia's announcement of its ceasefire came in a statement from the foreign ministry, stating that Georgia "today stopped firing in the South Ossetian conflict zone and is ready to begin talks with Russia on a ceasefire and cessation of hostilities".

But a Russian foreign ministry official was quoted by Interfax saying "our information does not confirm the Georgian statement".

"There are indications that exchanges of fire are continuing and the Georgian forces have not been fully withdrawn from the conflict zone," he said.

*sigh* The truth is out there :frown: Now there is information war going on about how eagerly Georgia is trying to stop the fighting, and obviously neither side is trust worthy, because they both have their preferred truth which benefits them.
 
  • #44
Russians Push Past Separatist Area to Assault Central Georgia !
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/11/world/europe/11georgia.html


So now Russia goes on the offense and invades a weaker neighbor. The US (and EU) stands by while an 'ally' is invaded. Hmmmm.


So perhaps Russia could gain control of the Baku to Ceyhan pipeline.
 
  • #45
layer_ru said:
Georgia attacked s.osettia because us said to did it.

Evidence?
 
  • #46
A US contribution of $107M over 10 years is $11M/year. Call it $12M. Georgia'a military budget is $600M/year. So we're talking about 12/600 = 2% here.
 
  • #47
There were a lot of vizits from usa just before georgia attacked ,and its well-known fact that saakashvili became president because of "roses revolution" which was financed by usa,so michael can't made such a strong decisions,without "consultating" with usa(actually there is a puppet government in georgia).
 
  • #48
layer_ru said:
There were a lot of vizits from usa just before georgia attacked ,and its well-known fact that saakashvili became president because of "roses revolution" which was financed by usa,so michael can't made such a strong decisions,without "consultating" with usa(actually there is a puppet government in georgia).

Like I said. Evidence?
 
  • #49
And you really think that us contribution is only 2%?A huge amount of american and other north atlantic alliance countries' weapons was transported to georgia directly.Just think it by yourself,there are no natural resources or any touristical resorts,etc.,where they got such a big amount of money?there is a joke in georgia:where are you working?in DNAD(doing nothing all day)department.
 
  • #50
layer_ru said:
There were a lot of vizits from usa just before georgia attacked ,and its well-known fact that saakashvili became president because of "roses revolution" which was financed by usa,so michael can't made such a strong decisions,without "consultating" with usa(actually there is a puppet government in georgia).
Evidence? So far, I see only unsubstantiated claims. Please provide evidence to support one's claims.

AFAIK, S. Ossetia is part of Georgia. Does Russia support the independence of Chechnya and Dagestan, both of whom would prefer to be free of the Russian yoke? Of course, ethnic Russians prefer to remain within Russia, and Russia prefers to maintain control of ethnic minorities. Afterall, Dagestan is rich in oil, gas and minerals.
 
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