Help a novice with EL equation derivation

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the derivation of the Euler-Lagrange equation from the principle of least action, specifically focusing on the variation of the action integral and the expansion of the Lagrangian in terms of small variations in the generalized coordinates and velocities. The scope includes theoretical aspects of mechanics and mathematical reasoning related to variational calculus.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • One participant seeks clarification on how to expand the action integral when the generalized coordinates and velocities are varied, specifically asking for an explicit demonstration without knowing the form of the Lagrangian.
  • Another participant explains that time is treated as an integration variable in this context, emphasizing that the time dependence of the Lagrangian is accounted for in the integration, and thus the partial derivative with respect to time does not contribute to the variation.
  • A different participant suggests that the expansion should be a Taylor expansion about the variations, keeping only first-order terms, and recommends further reading on functional derivatives and the calculus of variations for deeper understanding.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree on the treatment of time as an integration variable and the nature of the expansion, but there is no consensus on the specific details of the expansion process or its relevance, as some participants are still seeking clarification.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights the need for a clear understanding of the roles of different variables in the context of the action integral and the assumptions underlying the expansion of the Lagrangian. There are unresolved aspects regarding the explicit steps of the expansion and the implications of including time derivatives.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be useful for students and individuals interested in theoretical physics, particularly those studying classical mechanics and variational principles.

Alex Cros
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Hello everyone,

Reading Landau and Lifshitz Course of Theoretical Physics Volume 1: Mechanics (page 3) I got suck in the following step (and I cite in italics):

The change in S when q is replaced by q+δq is
\int_{t_1}^{t_2} L(q+δq, \dot q +δ\dot q, t)dt - \int_{t_1}^{t_2} L(q, \dot q, t)dt

(So far so good)

When this difference is expanded in powers of δq and δ\dot q in the integrand, the leading terms are of the first order.

How do you expand that? Could anyone show me how explicitly if you don't know the explicit form of the Lagrangian?

The necessary condition for S (where S is the action) to have a minimum is that these terms (called the first variation, or simply the variation, of the integral) should be zero. Thus the principle of least action may be written in the form
δS = δ \int_{t_1}^{t_2} L(q, \dot q, t)dt = 0


(Which I'm fine with the above expression)

Or, effecting the variation,
\int_{t_1}^{t_2} (<br /> \frac{\partial L}{\partial q}δq+<br /> \frac{\partial L}{\partial \dot q}δ\dot q)<br /> dt = 0

Now my guess would have included \frac{\partial L}{\partial t} like:
\int_{t_1}^{t_2} (<br /> \frac{\partial L}{\partial q}δq+<br /> \frac{\partial L}{\partial \dot q}δ\dot q + \frac{\partial L}{\partial t}dt)<br /> dt = 0
To perform the total differential of all variables.
Explain me like if I'm five why this guess is wrong.

Thanks so much in advance! And sorry for my lack of elemental knowledge.
-Alex
 
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Hi,

##t## plays a different role here: it is the integration variable. We want to minimize ##S## by finding a path ##\Bigl ( q(t), \dot q(t) \Bigr )## that achieves this ##\delta S=0## condition. There is no value of ##t## to find; it just runs from ##t_1## to ##t_2## and nothing can be done with ##\partial L \over \partial t##. The time dependence of ##L## is present in the integration, though.
 
Thanks BvU!
Any ideas on how to do this and why is it relevant?
When this difference is expanded in powers of δq and δ\dot q in the integrand, the leading terms are of the first order.
 
Alex Cros said:
Thanks BvU!
Any ideas on how to do this and why is it relevant?

The expansion is basically a Taylor expansion about δq and δ{itex}\dot q{\itex}t keeping the first order powers in in the differentials. For a deeper understanding, read on functional derivatives and or the calculus of variations.
 

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