High-heeled shoes and evolution theory.

[2112rush2112]

I always speculated that the reason why women wear high-heeled shoes (such as pumps and the like) is they give them an advantage (albeit a deceptive one) in attracting the taller male.

There is enormous selection pressure being imposed on the height of our species, with our species getting taller with each millenia; nay, with each generation. Women just want a mate that's as tall or taller than her father, hence the selection pressure. To this end, I hypothesize, women will wear the high-heeled shoe, because the added increase in her height will make her more attractive to the taller male. The deception no doubt works in both the workplace and the nightclub.

But after further and somewhat tedious observation, I noticed it's the tall women--not the short women--who are likely wearing the high-heeled shoe. Why is this? Three out of every four women I see wearing high-heeled shoes are tall women! I can't figure this one out! Why would an already robust woman want to accentuate a physiological quality that's already somewhat abnormal in appearance?

This thread is directed mostly at the ladies. Ladies, is there something about the high-heeled shoe that your taller friends just don't see? Or are they trying to go from Linebacker to Quarterback deliberately? And what of the shorter-statured womanfolk? Why do they not exploit the advantage of the high-heeled shoe to acquire the taller male?

I am utterly confounded by high-heeled shoes! They must represent something, but what?

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

They make the calf look better.

 

[BobG]

I don't think it has anything to do with height. I think they're supposed to imply increased intelligence.

Or at least the ability to solve triple integrals for torque in their head while walking across a parking lot on a windy day. They must be solving these to at least 6 significant digits when you consider they're able to maintain their balance over such a small surface area, even while their center of gravity is constantly shifting as they sashay across the parking lot.

 

[leroyjenkens]

I think it has to do with how the way the heels make their leg muscles look. I like short women, personally.

 

[HeLiXe]

I don't think it has anything to do with height. I think they're supposed to imply increased intelligence.

Or at least the ability to solve triple integrals for torque in their head while walking across a parking lot on a windy day. They must be solving these to at least 6 significant digits when you consider they're able to maintain their balance over such a small surface area, even while their center of gravity is constantly shifting as they sashay across the parking lot.

please someone put this in the classics! pleeeez this is the best!

 

[I like Serena]

please someone put this in the classics! pleeeez this is the best!

I like it when a woman figuring bolometric magnitudes sashays across the parking lot. :!)

 

[dlgoff]

They make the calf look better.

I read... Moooo... a calf. You now owe me one Dell Enhanced Keyboard. This one's full of beer and spit.

 

[WannabeNewton]

I wear high - heels and I'm a guy. I can tell you that it's not to attract tall men.

 

[Evo]

Most women wear ridiculous high heels because that's what the fashion magazines say they have to wear. Which explains why they wear them with pants and wear high heeled boots. I read that women wearing high heels seem more helpless due to the smaller, more careful steps they need to make and the appearance of being frail appeals to men. Men?

 

[lisab]

I read... Moooo... a calf. You now owe me one Dell Enhanced Keyboard. This one's full of beer and spit.

Oh Don...

 

[lisab]

Most women wear ridiculous high heels because that's what the fashion magazines say they have to wear. Which explains why they wear them with pants and wear high heeled boots. I read that women wearing high heels seem more helpless due to the smaller, more careful steps they need to make and the appearance of being frail appeals to men. Men?

I agree, it's not a height thing. I think that "I'm helpless" mode extends to a lot of things.

Why else do women tend to go into what they know are poor-paying jobs? I can't imagine having a job where I know I could *never* pay my own way in life, should the need arise.

Yeah I'll probably make some people mad - not my intention. Just trying to get a 'big picture' view of gender-based behavior.

 

[Drakkith]

Most women wear ridiculous high heels because that's what the fashion magazines say they have to wear. Which explains why they wear them with pants and wear high heeled boots. I read that women wearing high heels seem more helpless due to the smaller, more careful steps they need to make and the appearance of being frail appeals to men. Men?

Can't talk...staring at legs...

 

[ZapperZ]

Yeah, but what evolutionary reason would it be for some women to wear high heels and socks??!

Zz.

 

[Drakkith]

Yeah, but what evolutionary reason would it be for some women to wear high heels and socks??!

Zz.

The common tube sock likely evolved in a symbiotic state with humans, first appearing over 50,000 years ago according to DNA sequencing. It is thought to have broken off from the hosiery family and now has over three dozen separate species spread all over the world thanks to it hijacking human migration to spread itself to every continent on the planet. Natural predators include gnomes, dryers, and the dreaded "left sock wormhole".

 

[zoobyshoe]

I read that women wearing high heels seem more helpless due to the smaller, more careful steps they need to make and the appearance of being frail appeals to men. Men?

It's conceivable they have this effect just below conscious level, but to me the message is more obviously, "I'm dressed up! I'm out to look attractive!" The intention to be attractive is, itself, attractive.

 

[lisab]

It's conceivable they have this effect just below conscious level, but to me the message is more obviously, "I'm dressed up! I'm out to look attractive!" The intention to be attractive is, itself, attractive.

Ah, true. But it also signals subservience: "I'm doing this to be attractive to you, because your judgement matters to me." Implicitly it signals, I am lower than you on the hierarchy.

 

[phinds]

I think it's a con promulgated on women by men. It emphasizes shapely calves and causes the hips to thrust forward more so looks sexy. I think women should use high heels only to whack men over the head with.

EDIT: and I agree about the subservient thing as well. High heels are the Western world's version of bound feet.

 

[Curious3141]

I like it when a woman figuring bolometric magnitudes sashays across the parking lot. :!)

Bolo-metric...oooh babyyyy. :!)

 

[Ibix]

History of high heels according to the BBC.

 

[HeLiXe]

I like it when a woman figuring bolometric magnitudes sashays across the parking lot. :!)

and also doing triple integrals I once fell on a piece of fertilizer while wearing heels and sashaying across the parking lot LOL

 

[zoobyshoe]

Ah, true. But it also signals subservience: "I'm doing this to be attractive to you, because your judgement matters to me." Implicitly it signals, I am lower than you on the hierarchy.

Eh? Guys dress up too.

 

[NemoReally]

Ah, true. But it also signals subservience: "I'm doing this to be attractive to you, because your judgement matters to me." Implicitly it signals, I am lower than you on the hierarchy.

Ah, you mean much in the same way that nobility or very senior officers dress up, especially for occasions? Signalling their subservience to those under them ... um. I think I might see a slight flaw in this argument. Somehow the concept of a 6' 3" woman wearing 4" heels to signify her subservience doesn't quite seem right. In fact, I could make a strong argument for extending your quoted speech thus: "It confirms in your own mind how superior I am - only the best need apply and you, worm, aren't one of them.".

I had a similar 'subservience'/'capability' interpretation given to my helping a female officer into the back of a 4-tonner. I asked if the general, or anybody else, would regard his driver opening the door for him in the same light? I also pointed out that if I hadn't made the offer, my mother, grandmother and aunts would have, quote, had my guts for garters.

 

[I like Serena]

and also doing triple integrals I once fell on a piece of fertilizer while wearing heels and sashaying across the parking lot LOL

Lollolz

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

I read that women wearing high heels seem more helpless due to the smaller, more careful steps they need to make and the appearance of being frail appeals to men. Men?

I was in the middle of watching women making smaller, more careful steps, appearing frail and seeing which ones appeal to me when my wife caught me at it. Then it hit me, women wear high heels the better to bonk you on the head.

 

[Astronuc]

Most women wear ridiculous high heels because that's what the fashion magazines say they have to wear. Which explains why they wear them with pants and wear high heeled boots. I read that women wearing high heels seem more helpless due to the smaller, more careful steps they need to make and the appearance of being frail appeals to men. Men?

Some men.

 

[phion]

There's nothing more attractive than a graceful woman skillfully prancing down the sidewalk in high heels, skinny jeans and a nice blouse.

 

[kevinferreira]

I always thought that one of the main reasons is the sound they make when walking. I speak for myself, it works, I always look when I hear the sound of high heels.

 

[FlexGunship]

Ah, true. But it also signals subservience: "I'm doing this to be attractive to you, because your judgement matters to me." Implicitly it signals, I am lower than you on the hierarchy.

I disagree with this statement. I don't have much of a subservient bone in my body (much to my own detriment sometimes)... but there's plenty of dumb sh*t I've done/worn to attract a girl because "[her] judgement matters to me."

My personal opinion regarding a girl wearing high heels is about the same as a man who wears expensive but tasteful clothing. It's nothing to do with the specifics of the clothing and way more about the fact that this is what our current culture deems as "put together." It's a social differentiator; its ends are its own means; it's a confidence booster in its own right.

When I'm about to meet someone I value (romantically or professionally), I wear my $500 watch instead of my $100 watch... and that has NOTHING to do with telling time more accurately or even hoping that the other person notices how expensive it is. In fact, I might even be a little embarrassed if someone called me on it.

Why do I find women in high heels "more attractive"? For the same reason that some women find a man in a suit "more attractive".

There's nothing more attractive than a graceful woman skillfully prancing down the sidewalk in high heels, skinny jeans and a nice blouse.

Replace "skinny jeans" with "skirt" and we're talking!

 

[I like Serena]

I always thought that one of the main reasons is the sound they make when walking. I speak for myself, it works, I always look when I hear the sound of high heels.

That is because we've been trained to the point of a Pavlov reflex, that looking will feel like a reward. ;)

 

[epenguin]

According to this article by memory (do not have subscription)

The Antiquity of Human Walking. Authors: Napier, John. Publication: Scientific American, vol. 216, issue 4, pp. 56-66. Publication Date: 04/1967.

the different female pelvic proportions, clearly reated to child delivery, causes the distinct gait which in turn is one of the signals of femininity. As I remember the interpretation of these and other authors is that high heels accentuate this.

You can fit the various cultural superstructure ideas mentioned around thes biological facts.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

Rule 1 of applying the theory of evolution to cultural practices: be extremely careful and hesitant when applying the theory of evolution to cultural practices because 99.99% of the time your ad hoc rationalisation will not only be wrong, it will completely miss the point.

This is especially true when you are trying to discuss items of fashion that are transient and culture specific.

 

[I like Serena]

EDIT: and I agree about the subservient thing as well. High heels are the Western world's version of bound feet.

Bound feet are forced upon women.
High heels is a choice that women make for themselves.
IMO it's all the difference between being a slave and being free.
I believe that especially women on high heels are often very much aware of the power they hold over men.

I could find the belief that it makes them look subservient on wiki.
However, it's a feminist's perception - I'm rather suspicious of it.
I believe more in zooby's view: they want to look pretty, they want to be appreciated... for the power it brings them.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

The necktie has been a central battleground of sexual politics ever since the emergence of the men's liberation movement of the 1970s BC. Many second-wave masculinists rejected what they regarded as constricting standards of male beauty, created for the subordination and objectifying of men and self-perpetuated by reproductive competition and men's own aesthetics. Some masculinists argue that the neckties were designed to make men helpless and vulnerable, perpetuating the gender role of females as liberators of the slowly suffocating men. Neckties have also been blamed for reducing the men to a sex object by sacrificing practical comfort in favor of an alleged increase in sex appeal.

 

[I like Serena]

The necktie has been a central battleground of sexual politics ever since the emergence of the men's liberation movement of the 1970s BC. Many second-wave masculinists rejected what they regarded as constricting standards of male beauty, created for the subordination and objectifying of men and self-perpetuated by reproductive competition and men's own aesthetics. Some masculinists argue that the neckties were designed to make men helpless and vulnerable, perpetuating the gender role of females as liberators of the slowly suffocating men. Neckties have also been blamed for reducing the men to a sex object by sacrificing practical comfort in favor of an alleged increase in sex appeal.

and I mean

 

[nitsuj]

I always thought that one of the main reasons is the sound they make when walking. I speak for myself, it works, I always look when I hear the sound of high heels.

Me too,

and knowing the "barriers*" to wearing high heels, I'm confident the "call" to have a look will typically be worth it.

Unfortunately, sometimes male dress shoes have a similar sounding tone...at which point I wonder why a dude would wear girl sounding shoes.

*confidence of course

 

[nitsuj]

Some masculinists argue that the neckties were designed to make men helpless and vulnerable, perpetuating the gender role of females as liberators of the slowly suffocating men. Neckties have also been blamed for reducing the men to a sex object by sacrificing practical comfort in favor of an alleged increase in sex appeal.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

I should point out that since I retired, I don't wear neckties as often as I used to. After I gave them all to charity, the local bums look much better and have better luck with the females than ever before. I still haven't reached the point where I'm ready to burn my underwear yet, but my wife says that if I don't change them more often, she's going to do it for me.

 

[BobG]

The necktie has been a central battleground of sexual politics ever since the emergence of the men's liberation movement of the 1970s BC. Many second-wave masculinists rejected what they regarded as constricting standards of male beauty, created for the subordination and objectifying of men and self-perpetuated by reproductive competition and men's own aesthetics. Some masculinists argue that the neckties were designed to make men helpless and vulnerable, perpetuating the gender role of females as liberators of the slowly suffocating men. Neckties have also been blamed for reducing the men to a sex object by sacrificing practical comfort in favor of an alleged increase in sex appeal.

(bolding mine)

I think it's worse than that.

Neckties were invented by women that hated men enough to take pleasure in seeing them strangled and mutilated by the office paper shredder.

Tie clips, on the other hand, were invented by women that felt some sense of protection over the menfolk in her life.

Especially really cool tie clips like these:
http://www.collectorsquest.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/slideruleclips.jpg

 

[BobG]

Rule 1 of applying the theory of evolution to cultural practices: be extremely careful and hesitant when applying the theory of evolution to cultural practices because 99.99% of the time your ad hoc rationalisation will not only be wrong, it will completely miss the point.

This is especially true when you are trying to discuss items of fashion that are transient and culture specific.

So you're claiming that multiple body piercings serve no evolutionary purpose? Surely it at least protects them from increased exposure to cosmic rays since they can never get past the metal detectors in order to board a plane.

 

[I like Serena]

Especially really cool tie clips like these:
http://www.collectorsquest.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/slideruleclips.jpg

Those look like tie clips invented by masculinists.

 

[Astronuc]

Speaking of high-heeled -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRe42BDK_R4

 

[zoobyshoe]

I believe more in zooby's view: they want to look pretty, they want to be appreciated... for the power it brings them.

That's not exactly what I was trying to say (although the average Dominitrix costume does seem to include spiked high heels). I was trying to say that the desire to dress up and be attractive is, itself, attractive, even if the woman is not so skilled in operating her high heels. Some women do seem awkward in them, but it's the thought that counts.

 

[InvalidID]

My personal opinion regarding a girl wearing high heels is about the same as a man who wears expensive but tasteful clothing. It's nothing to do with the specifics of the clothing and way more about the fact that this is what our current culture deems as "put together." It's a social differentiator; its ends are its own means; it's a confidence booster in its own right.

I agree. If you want to appear put together, you have to wear what society decides how put together people should look like. It's a universal language that the majority of people (society) understand.

 

[HeLiXe]

That's not exactly what I was trying to say (although the average Dominitrix costume does seem to include spiked high heels).

 

[Evo]

As the feminist movement gained momentum, however, stilettos went out of favor with the cry: “Liberate the captive foot of womanhood!” For many feminists, high heels indicated subservience and sexual stereotyping by men. High heels were titillating “man-made” objects, literally involved in crippling women, or at least slowing them down when the need to run away from male violence and oppressors arose. Heels were seen as a comparable successor to foot binding and the tight-laced corset as perverse regulatory objects for molding the feminine. Consequently, heels dropped and thickened, and soon low-heeled shoes with square toes replaced the stiletto (Gamman 1993).

Perhaps influenced in part by successful TV and film hits as Sex in the City and The Devil Wears Prada, some women are even going under the knife to shorten their toes or inject padding into the balls of their feet to allow their feet to fit more comfortably into a pair of stilettos

Sick. I worked with a woman that broke her foot trying to wear ridiculous high heels. It's not possibe to squeeze your toes into that tiny space at such a severe angle. She was very skinny too, so it wasn't her weight.

http://www.randomhistory.com/1-50/036heels.html

 

[NemoReally]

Sick. I worked with a woman that broke her foot trying to wear ridiculous high heels. It's not possibe to squeeze your toes into that tiny space at such a severe angle. She was very skinny too, so it wasn't her weight.

http://www.randomhistory.com/1-50/036heels.html

Let's try a different, perhaps less selective, quote from that peer-reviewed article ...

Formal Invention of High Heels as Fashion

The formal invention of high heels as fashion is typically attributed to the rather short-statured Catherine de Medici (1519-1589). At the age of 14, Catherine de Medici was engaged to the powerful Duke of Orleans, later the King of France. She was small (not quite five feet) relative to the Duke and hardly considered a beauty. She felt insecure in the arranged marriage knowing she would be the Queen of the French Court and in competition with the Duke’s favorite (and significantly taller) mistress, Diane de Poitiers. Looking for a way to dazzle the French nation and compensate for her perceived lack of aesthetic appeal, she donned heels two inches high that gave her a more towering physique and an alluring sway when she walked. Her heels were a wild success and soon high heels were associated with privilege. Mary Tudor, or “Bloody Mary,” another monarch seeking to appear larger than life, wore heels as high possible (McDowell 1989). By 1580, fashionable heels were popular for both sexes, and a person who had authority or wealth was often referred to as “well-heeled.”

King Louis XIV
In the early 1700s, France's King Louis XIV decreed that only nobility could wear heels that were colored red and that no one's heels could be higher than his own

In the early 1700s, France's King Louis XIV (The Sun King) would often wear intricate heels decorated with miniature battle scenes. Called “Louis heels,” they were often as tall as five inches. The king decreed that only nobility could wear heels that were colored red (les talons rogue) and that no one's heels could be higher than his own..

Subservient, my foot!

 

[Evo]

I was hoping to keep this in our lifetime so it mattered (as in relevant) to us. High heeled shoes don't go back very far in history.

 

[NemoReally]

I was hoping to keep this in our lifetime so it mattered (as in relevant) to us. High heeled shoes don't go back very far in history.

Pushing on in years, I may be, but Catherine de Medici was not one of my contemporaries. At least, I don't think she was ...

It is possible to interpret the feminist movement "subservience" model of high heels as just a post-facto reaction against the prevailing standards. The same article that you quoted makes statements that are not consistent with your hypothesis. Please provide me with a reference to a peer-reviewed psychological study, in an accepted journal, that validates the hypothesis that wearing high heels makes women feel subservient.

 

[Evo]

Pushing on in years, I may be, but Catherine de Medici was not one of my contemporaries. At least, I don't think she was ...

It is possible to interpret the feminist movement "subservience" model of high heels as just a post-facto reaction against the prevailing standards. The same article that you quoted makes statements that are not consistent with your hypothesis. Please provide me with a reference to a peer-reviewed psychological study, in an accepted journal, that validates the hypothesis that wearing high heels makes women feel subservient.

LOL, you expect a peer reviewed scientific journal to have research on high heels?

Scientists don't do research on fashion, AFAIK. Peer reviewed sicentific journals are needed if you are referring to a scientific study, or something that should be.

I didn't state a hypothesis, I mentioned reading a fashion article, but I posted an article that backed up what I said I had read.

 

[Zarqon]

LOL, you expect a peer reviewed scientific journal to have research on high heels?

Scientists don't do research on fashion, AFAIK.

Well, if you look at the PRL webpage you'll find that they've been proudly announcing their paper about the physics of Ponytails that won the IG nobel award, so you never know...

Also, on topic, something I haven't seen mentioned yet, is that high heels does change the proportions of their legs with respect to the rest of the body, and long legs is another thing that I guess is generally considered attractive.