Homemade cloud chamber not working

In summary: I agree with what @davenn mentioned about both size and temperature. A taller enclosure makes it easier to get the needed temperature gradient, and to get a larger supersaturated active region as well.look for that thin cloud at the bottom.Hope this helps. And please keep us updated!Cheers,TomIn summary, the students are having difficulty creating a cloud chamber using the instructions found in the article. They have tried different methods, including using isopropyl alcohol and warm water, but none of them have worked. They are considering trying a glass tupperware with a snap on lid instead.
  • #1
nebulinda
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3
I am a HS teacher working with a class of seniors on building a cloud bubble chamber. I have mostly used this article to guide us, but the students have also done research and have found many articles and videos as well.

We are using a small plastic fish tank with felt super-glued to the bottom. We soaked the felt in 91% isopropyl alcohol, then placed the fish tank upside down on a cookie sheet (and then we tried a small whiteboard), and duct taped it down to seal the chamber. Then this assembly is placed on dry ice, and a tub of hot water placed on top, to create a temperature differential. The air inside the fish tank is supposed to become saturated with alcohol and form a cloud, but in our chamber the alcohol is just condensing on the cookie sheet/whiteboard and no cloud is forming.

A colleague told me to try using Iso-HEET instead of 91% isopropyl alcohol, but that also didn't work.

My plan is to get some 99% isopropyl alcohol from Amazon (it is very difficult to find in stores), and use a glass tupperware with a snap on lid instead of the plastic fish tank.

Is there anything else I should try, or need to have to make this work? I would appreciate any input anyone can offer. Thanks!
 
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  • #2
nebulinda said:
We are using a small plastic fish tank
how small ?

nebulinda said:
My plan is to get some 99% isopropyl alcohol from Amazon

the 91% should be good enough ... I have seen it work with such

nebulinda said:
and a tub of hot water placed on top, to create a temperature differential.

how hot ?
the article states warm water

The WARM water is just helping the Iso-proropyl to vaporise a little quicker
it is NOT about making a temperature differenceregards
Dave
 
  • #3
davenn said:
how small ?
The fish tank is about 6 in wide, 8 in long, and 6 in tall.

davenn said:
the 91% should be good enough ... I have seen it work with such
Same, at this point I want to minimize any sources for error as much as possible.

davenn said:
how hot ?
Maybe 170-190 F. Do you think the water is TOO hot?
 
  • #4
I am interested in how this works out, I've been thinking of making my own cloud chamber too, just for gits & shiggles.
 
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  • #5
nebulinda said:
The fish tank is about 6 in wide, 8 in long, and 6 in tall.
probably a bit small

nebulinda said:
Maybe 170-190 F. Do you think the water is TOO hot?

yup, most likely, you are not too far below boiling

the article said "warm" not hot ... try 80 - 110 F ... I definitely wouldn't go over 150F
 
  • #6
davenn said:
probably a bit small
You know subatomic particles are small, right? Like, real small.:biggrin:
feelin' punchy tonight...
 
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  • #7
DaveC426913 said:
You know subatomic particles are small, right? Like, real small.:biggrin:
feelin' punchy tonight...
yup, but they leave a big, easy to see trail in the vapour :smile:Dave
 
  • #8
I didn't see it mentioned in your linked construction article, so I will fill in a little bit of theory for others reading this.

The operation of a cloud chamber depends on there being a supersaturated vapor in it. This requires a temperature difference between the vapor source and the active region of the chamber. The alcohol vapor, or other high vapor pressure fluid, is released from the absorbent material (sponge) at the top of the chamber. Eventually the atmosphere in the chamber is saturated with vapor. The cooling at the bottom, dry ice in your case, cools the chamber atmosphere which decreases the amount of vapor that the atmosphere can hold. You then have a supersaturated condition. Any slight disturbance, be it a dust particle or a subatomic particle, becomes a nucleating center for condensation.

A 'well constructed and configured' cloud chamber will often be slightly overcooled and have a thin cloud in it overlaying the bottom cooled surface. It's a good indicator. Think of a thin alto-cirrus cloud. The chamber active region is from this cloud up to where the the atmosphere is no longer supersaturated.

I agree with what @davenn mentioned about both size and temperature. A taller enclosure makes it easier to get the needed temperature gradient, and to get a larger supersaturated active region as well.

Look for that thin cloud at the bottom.

Hope this helps. And please keep us updated!

Cheers,
Tom
 
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  • #9
I personally haven't done this since the 1990's when I was doing physics101 at university ... lots of fun
The last time I saw a demo was on TV a month or so ago by that Prof Brian Cox guy who has become reasonably
well known world wide over recent years.

The episode he did, he set one up out in the desert using a rectangular glass fish tank. He put a black cloth over it
to shield from the sunlight. Stuck a camera and a small light source through a gap in the cloth and filmed the particle trails.

I don't recall him using any hot water on top, just the ambient air temp out in the hot sun to do the warming of the system

The particle trails were easily seen as they passed through the chamber

Tom.G said:
I didn't see it mentioned in your linked construction article, so I will fill in a little bit of theory for others reading this.

great input, Tom :smile:Dave
 
  • #10
If it makes you feel any better I attempted to make a cloud chamber over 50 years ago when I was a teenager. I think I used denatured ethyl alcohol or wood alcohol. What ever they had in the hardware store. Mine did not work either! Tried several changes and eventually ran out of dry ice. No streaks seen, not one.
 
  • #11
pyroartist said:
If it makes you feel any better I attempted to make a cloud chamber over 50 years ago when I was a teenager. I think I used denatured ethyl alcohol or wood alcohol. What ever they had in the hardware store. Mine did not work either! Tried several changes and eventually ran out of dry ice. No streaks seen, not one.
Sure, that was before atoms were invented.
Maybe try again in this millennium?

:biggrin:
 
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  • #13
I've built about 15 cloud chambers and have the solution for you: it's that you need a high voltage clearing field. Try this: inflate a common rubber balloon, rub it against your hair, and bring it near the cloud chamber. I discovered this requirement when I moved from a plastic walled aquarium to a glass-walled aquarium and couldn't get the glass one to work. Turns out when I was using plastic I so fanatically cleaned the condensation off the sides with a microfiber cloth that I charged the plastic with static electricity, worked great! Then when i expanded into a glass aquarium it wouldn't work. I couldn't figure out why. After tons of research I heard about the HV clearing field, confirmed it with the balloon trick, and then just used a HV gas laser power supply from then on with grids on either end of the aquarium. Good luck!
 
  • #14
I should clarify: you don't NEED the HV clearing field, but when you use it your chamber will work about 300% more effectively and that can make all the difference.
 
  • #15
Kosdon3200 said:
... you need a high voltage clearing field...
Beyond the obvious ("it clears the field of high voltage of course!") how exactly does this facilitate the effectiveness of the cloud chamber?

And is it part of standard DIY cloud chamber setups? If so, should the OP have found it described as a necessary component? If not, why has no one else discovered this?
 
  • #16
I found mine worked better with less alcohol. I needed surprisingly little to get the cloud forming, the sponge barely being damp. Adding high voltage helped too.
 
  • #17
DaveC426913 said:
Beyond the obvious ("it clears the field of high voltage of course!") how exactly does this facilitate the effectiveness of the cloud chamber?

And is it part of standard DIY cloud chamber setups? If so, should the OP have found it described as a necessary component? If not, why has no one else discovered this?
Don't recall 100% but it has to do with clearing the super saturated region for ions. The ions prevent the condensation from happening. Something along those lines.
 
  • #18
DaveC426913 said:
Beyond the obvious ("it clears the field of high voltage of course!") how exactly does this facilitate the effectiveness of the cloud chamber?

And is it part of standard DIY cloud chamber setups? If so, should the OP have found it described as a necessary component? If not, why has no one else discovered this?
Lord Crc said:
Don't recall 100% but it has to do with clearing the super saturated region for ions. The ions prevent the condensation from happening. Something along those lines.

Hi Dave,

Thanks for your response and your question. As to whether or not the HV field is required, as we discussed above, it is possible to get a cloud chamber to work without one, it's just far more difficult to do so.

I suspect that the HV removes stray ionization in the ambient "isoproposphere" which otherwise reduces the definition of the cloud tracks, so the HVF results in higher precision tracks. As far as why nobody else has discovered this, I supposed it's just due to an incomplete investigation of the state of the art.

I personally had to be sufficiently disappointed with about 8 different weak-sauce failures of my various fully constructed glass-aquarium designs before I dug deep enough into the literature to reveal the significance of the HV field. In that light, anyone who has had trouble getting a cloud chamber to work right, would perhaps have to fail another seven times in order to obtain the necessary level of frustration I found was required of myself in order to motivate me to crack the puzzle.

You'll find that PHYWE, a German manufacturer of museum-quality cloud chambers, considers the HVF important enough that they organize those controls first on their control panels (51a and 51 below):

Screen Shot 2020-04-15 at 11.45.27 AM.png

The above is from the PHYWE PJ80, but they also have HVF in the PJ45. If anyone is looking for all of the answers in one spot then I recommend you look at their lab guide from 5.2.04, called VISUALISATION OF RADIOACTIVE PARTICLES / DIFFUSION CLOUD CHAMBER.

Here are links to the complete user docs for the PHYWE PJ45 and the PHYWE PJ80, you'll find them to be UNBELIEVABLY INFORMATIVE. I give complete credit to the engineers at PHYWE.

Once you have time to soak up all that good info, please circle back around and get back in touch if you can, as I may need the help of others in cracking a few puzzles I still have unsolved on my balance sheet. Puzzles like "why are muons blowing completely through my chamber at an almost identical orientation to each other?" and "how can most easily demonstrate the curved paths that differentiate regular matter (electron) from anti-matter (positron) in a magnetic field" and "is it possible to make a floor of the chamber as dark as Vantablack is?"

My most pressing goal at present is a future conversion of my current model cloud chamber from running 2 blocks of dry ice to running a mechanical refrigeration cascade in the manner of a -86°C Ultra-low lab freezer. Hopefully that will help me to kill our planet less, which I consider to be an important goal.

I have over 100 movies showing a range of radioactive demonstrations, everything from gamma rays to the V-shaped tracks of Radon gas, to these puzzling muons, if anyone is interested. I been farting around with these things for a good while and I really get a kick out of being helpful.

Chamber Huge Clouds!P.S. Fingers crossed I didn't screw up a link in this post.
 
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  • #19
You can take a look at my cloud chamber build at http://blog.kotarak.net/. I explain the whole build process there...having HV is not absolutely necessary but it does make a huge difference. Important factors are even release of the alcohol at the top - use felt instead of sponge and make sure the temp of the cold plate is at least -30C (The cooler the better)
 
  • #20
DaveC426913 said:
Beyond the obvious ("it clears the field of high voltage of course!") how exactly does this facilitate the effectiveness of the cloud chamber?

And is it part of standard DIY cloud chamber setups? If so, should the OP have found it described as a necessary component? If not, why has no one else discovered this?

Dave! I know it's been a long time since we touched base on this, however I wanted to send you a note that I've found the definitive reasoning behind the high voltage field. It is buried in an early publication from Cambridge University Press circa 1951 entitled "The Principles of Cloud Chamber Technique" by J.C. Wilson. See the first two paragraphs on the attached photo of the page in question. I'm glad to have been able to find an authoritative mention of the technique I recommended.

Have fun with Physics
IMG_7093.JPG
 
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  • #21
kotarak said:
You can take a look at my cloud chamber build at http://blog.kotarak.net/. I explain the whole build process there...having HV is not absolutely necessary but it does make a huge difference. Important factors are even release of the alcohol at the top - use felt instead of sponge and make sure the temp of the cold plate is at least -30C (The cooler the better)
 
  • #22
I'm really impressed with the design of your cloud chamber. I too had tried to use cascaded TECs but I wasn't impressed with my somewhat lame attempt and given my impatience I've been using the dry ice method ever since. Yours has inspired me to rethink my earlier ideas about a handheld TEC cascade for portable demonstrations... Thanks for sharing the great write up - a very intriguing presentation and super sweet traces in your chamber. Congrats on a total success!

P.S. Pick up a Sodium 22 disk and you'll have your own beta+ emitter and can thusly observe antimatter doing it's thing, namely being an electron with inverted charge (positron). That might shake up the science fair. I bet you already considered it. Great work man thanks!
 
  • #23
"Old nuclei, which have drifted far from the points at which they were formed..."?? :wideeyed:

Kosdon3200 said:
 
  • #24
DaveC426913 said:
"Old nuclei, which have drifted far from the points at which they were formed..."?? :wideeyed:
I think they mean cations or bare nuclei.
 
  • #25
nebulinda said:
I am a HS teacher working with a class of seniors on building a cloud bubble chamber. I have mostly used this article to guide us, but the students have also done research and have found many articles and videos as well.

We are using a small plastic fish tank with felt super-glued to the bottom. We soaked the felt in 91% isopropyl alcohol, then placed the fish tank upside down on a cookie sheet (and then we tried a small whiteboard), and duct taped it down to seal the chamber. Then this assembly is placed on dry ice, and a tub of hot water placed on top, to create a temperature differential. The air inside the fish tank is supposed to become saturated with alcohol and form a cloud, but in our chamber the alcohol is just condensing on the cookie sheet/whiteboard and no cloud is forming.

A colleague told me to try using Iso-HEET instead of 91% isopropyl alcohol, but that also didn't work.

My plan is to get some 99% isopropyl alcohol from Amazon (it is very difficult to find in stores), and use a glass tupperware with a snap on lid instead of the plastic fish tank.

Is there anything else I should try, or need to have to make this work? I would appreciate any input anyone can offer. Thanks!
Hi,

I have a fair amount of experience with cloud chambers both expansion and dry ice/temp differential. I am not sure of your design etc..as it is missing important info:

Two important things are required:
1. Ethanol 99% ie denatured with a toxin. This works! Other alcohols do not work well. I am surprised that so many people get this wrong! Again Ethanol 99% not 90%. Hardware stores have denatured ethanol...ie undrinkable...
2. Missing from the article..You MUST have a ~300 volt clearing field. Batteries will work fine: 300 volts though. Use a 100Kohm series resister to avoid sparks from a random short...getting a jolt from the 300 volts if you accidentally touched the clearing band while positioning a radioactive source.
2.1 I usually just glued a 1/4" band of heavy aluminum foil to the inside surface of the chamber with one electrode being the ground plate and the other to the band. The band should be about 1 inch above the ground plate
2.2 You will need a very intense light...LED beam in dark room preferably would probably work now...I used to use a 35mm projector. Shine it through horizontally ie parallel above the ground plate which is usually black. Then you will see the alpha particles presumably from old fire alarms.

Without the 300 volt clearing field the background cosmic rays will quickly 'fog' up with additional ions (ie white noise) and the contrast will render viewing of individual tracks impossible.

You can put a switch in the clearing field circuit and show the effects where
the ions are quite rapidly swept away etc..

This is lots of fun for the teacher too!
Call me if you need any more advice...or trouble shooting. Text me before calling so I know to pick up.

Good luck!

Gary

[Personal contact information deleted by the Mentors]
 
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  • #27
FYI as a follow-up to our cloud chamber discussion, I'm excited to report that this Friday I'm picking up a surplus ultra-low-temperature freezer from a Craigslist ad in hopes of converting it into a continuously-running museum quality cloud chamber something like the Phywe 80. This freezer, 5 sq ft. of -85°C goodness, retails for $6-10K but since it needs work it's coming home with me for $50. I hope to soon post updates from my progress.
 
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  • #28
DrClaude said:
I think they mean cations or bare nuclei.
Right, "condensation nuclei"
 
  • #29
UPDATE: While above I gush about Germany's Phywe cloud chambers, I've recently discovered a Czech manufacturer whose systems look gorgeous. Check out "Nuledo".
 

1. Why is my homemade cloud chamber not producing any clouds?

There could be several reasons for this. First, make sure that your chamber is completely sealed and airtight. Any leaks can prevent the formation of clouds. Additionally, check that your dry ice or alcohol is fresh and has not evaporated. Finally, make sure that your source of radiation, such as a radioactive material or cosmic rays, is strong enough to produce visible clouds.

2. How can I improve the sensitivity of my homemade cloud chamber?

To improve the sensitivity of your cloud chamber, you can try using a stronger source of radiation, such as a more radioactive material or a higher altitude location. You can also increase the amount of dry ice or alcohol used, or decrease the temperature inside the chamber. Additionally, make sure that your chamber is completely dark and free of any external light sources.

3. Why are my clouds disappearing quickly?

This could be due to a number of factors. First, check that your chamber is completely sealed and airtight. Any leaks can cause the clouds to dissipate quickly. Additionally, make sure that your dry ice or alcohol is fresh and has not evaporated. Finally, the temperature inside the chamber may be too warm, causing the clouds to evaporate faster.

4. Can I use a different type of alcohol in my cloud chamber?

Yes, you can use different types of alcohol in your cloud chamber, such as rubbing alcohol or isopropyl alcohol. However, make sure to use a high percentage of alcohol (at least 70%) and avoid using denatured alcohol, as it contains additives that can interfere with the cloud formation.

5. Is it safe to use a homemade cloud chamber?

As long as you handle the materials properly and use appropriate safety precautions, it is generally safe to use a homemade cloud chamber. However, if you are using a radioactive material as a source of radiation, make sure to follow all safety guidelines and regulations. It is also important to properly dispose of any materials used in the chamber after use.

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