How can Lenz's Law be derived?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the derivation of Lenz's Law, which states that an induced current opposes the change causing it. Participants explore whether Lenz's Law can be mathematically derived or if it is simply an observed phenomenon. The scope includes theoretical considerations and interpretations related to classical electrodynamics.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants argue that Lenz's Law cannot be derived mathematically, suggesting it is an observed fact related to changes in magnetic flux through a solenoid.
  • Others propose that Lenz's Law is a consequence of the minus sign in Maxwell's equations, indicating a fundamental relationship in classical electrodynamics.
  • A participant questions whether the opposition described in Lenz's Law is a result of conservation of energy, seeking clarification on the interpretation of the law.
  • Some participants contend that asking for a derivation of Lenz's Law is akin to asking for a derivation of the right-hand rule, suggesting it stems from arbitrary conventions in defining directions of fields.
  • There is a challenge to the idea that reversing the direction conventions could lead to a scenario where induced EMF supports the change in flux, emphasizing that such a situation would violate energy conservation.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the nature of Lenz's Law, with no consensus on whether it can be derived or if it is merely an empirical observation. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the implications of conservation laws in relation to Lenz's Law.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight the dependence on definitions and conventions in discussing Lenz's Law, as well as the unresolved nature of the mathematical steps involved in its derivation.

acimarol
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Heinrich Lenz postulated in 1834 the following law;

"An induced current is always in such a direction as to oppose the motion or change causing it"

I have checked many undergrad/grad-level textbooks for a derivation, but they all just state Lenz's Law without derivation as if it were a universal law like the conservation of energy.

Can anyone help me with a derivation of Lenz's Law?
 
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I don't know if you can really "derive" something like Lenz's Law.
Do you mean mathematically? because I don't know if that's necessarily possible,
its just an observed fact that if you (for instance) change the magnetic flux through a solenoid a current will be induced that will create a Magnetic field to oppose the change.
Perhaps intuitively you could think of it as a solenoid resisting changes to its B fields,
and following that logic it can be seen as a result of conservation arguments.

Its sort of like asking to "derive" the observed fact that a moving charged particle
feels a force perpendicular to the velocity of the particle and the B field;
its just what happens.
 
Redd said:
I don't know if you can really "derive" something like Lenz's Law.
Do you mean mathematically? because I don't know if that's necessarily possible,
its just an observed fact that if you (for instance) change the magnetic flux through a solenoid a current will be induced that will create a Magnetic field to oppose the change.

Yes, I am asking for some sort of mathematical proof. But what you say is reasonable, and I see where you are coming from.

Let's say a magnetic dipole is moving toward a coil with a constant velocity. I was mainly wondering if the part of Lenz's Law that says the induced magnetic field will oppose the motion of the magnet is a consequence of conservation of energy? Or am I interpreting Lenz's incorrectly, and it actually does not state anything about opposing the motion of the magnetic dipole?
 
jtbell said:
Lenz's Law is the conseqence of the minus sign in the third of Maxwell's equations, which are the fundamental starting point for classical electrodynamics:

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/Hbase/electric/maxeq.html

I think you've got it a bit backwards, the minus sign I think is the consequence of the experimental fact. All it does is give the the direction of the E field, as you may remember are conventions for picking the directions of E and B fields are arbitrary. Frankly I think asking to derive Lenz's Law is like asking to derive the right hand rule, its just the result of an arbitrary choice of picking a direction. Reverse the directions and suddenly the "Law" says that the induced EMF supports the change in flux.
 
lubuntu said:
I think you've got it a bit backwards, the minus sign I think is the consequence of the experimental fact. All it does is give the the direction of the E field, as you may remember are conventions for picking the directions of E and B fields are arbitrary. Frankly I think asking to derive Lenz's Law is like asking to derive the right hand rule, its just the result of an arbitrary choice of picking a direction. Reverse the directions and suddenly the "Law" says that the induced EMF supports the change in flux.

No, you cannot get the EMF to support the change in flux, that would violate energy conservation at the very least. If you changed the handed-ness convention consistently throughout the equations, you should preserve Lenz's Law.
 

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