Automotive How do the accelerator pedal and rpm interact in an internal combustion engine?

AI Thread Summary
The interaction between the accelerator pedal and engine RPM in an internal combustion engine is primarily influenced by air flow and ignition timing. While the compression ratio is generally constant, the air-fuel ratio and ignition rate vary with RPM. As the accelerator pedal is pressed, it opens the throttle, allowing more air into the engine, which increases RPM. The air-fuel mixture must be adjusted to maintain optimal performance, particularly as RPM increases. Understanding these relationships is crucial for comprehending engine dynamics and performance optimization.
  • #51
xxChrisxx said:
Engine torque accelerates the engine (increases the RPM). This torque comes from how much fuel you are burning in a given engine cycle. More fuel = more torque = more power = more go.

http://www.tuneboy.com.au/Tutorials/TuneEditTutorial2.html
Nice links, thanks xxChrisxx

but here is one image from this link
http://www.tuneboy.com.au/TBImages/10111AF.gif
www.tuneboy.com.au/Tutorials/TuneEditTutorial2.html

for this bike engine example it shows that at a 49 load the AFR is CONSTANT at 14:1 from 900rpm to 7500rpm, and we both agree that the CR is held constant, so we can say that pressing the accelerator pedal doesn't mean an alteration of the AFR → therefore it doesn't translate into higher torque directly

Now to explain why would the torque be higher in some specific rpm ranges, I'm thinking that the values of valve timing/ valve lift/ ignition efficiency and engine breathing at a giving speed together with the overall design of the cylinder and the head must play the role here and produce the required torque, in other words: you do not give permission for higher torque and then the rpm increase, on contrary to that, you first release the pedal to get more rpm and as it climbs up you then receive the correspondent high torque that is associated with whichever that rpm value is.

awaiting for Baluncore to bring some figures that show a variation of the CR as a driving factor to increase rpm ...
 
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  • #52
PhysicoRaj said:
I have to thank you for that..

And a good post by Chris. What he gave is the exact answer to your 'latest' question. Hope you got your answer.
You're Welcome PhysicoRaj,

please check my reply ...
 
  • #53
Your main driver for torque output (power at the specific rpm) is the amount of air you have available. Think of AFR values, and deviations from stoichiometric to be 'trim' rather than the main driver.

Infact you'll often hear AFR referred to as 'fuel trim'.

I'll flip your post around a bit.

Sailor said:
Now to explain why would the torque be higher in some specific rpm ranges, I'm thinking that the values of valve timing/ valve lift/ ignition efficiency and engine breathing at a giving speed together with the overall design of the cylinder and the head must play the role here and produce the required torque

As engine with fixed inlet and outlet geometry and with a fixed valve overlap will breathe most efficiently at a single rpm. This will tail off the further you deviate from this single figure.

This is known as volumetric efficiency. Think of it as a 'cylinder filling %'. If we assume that you get the same measure of combustion at all RPM (i.e. it combusts with the same efficiency at all RPM). Then the torque curve will exactly follow the volumetric efficiency curve.

If the engine filled the cylinders with 100% of the air available at all rpm, then it would produce a flat torque curve. Ie At 7000rpm it'll be flowing 2x as much air as it would at 3500rpm for a given time.

It's important to note that PER CYCLE the engine is flowing the same amount.

So:
Lets say this bike has a 1000cc engine and it's most efficient breathing is at 7000rpm at WOT (100% load) with a VE of 100%. But at 6000rpm it only breathes at 80% volumetric efficiency.

Per Cycle:
6000rpm - 0.8L air is available for combustion
7000rpm - 1L of air is available for combustion

With 20% more air available at 7krpm than at 6k, you would expect 20% more torque to be produced.


Sailor said:
for this bike engine example it shows that at a 49 load the AFR is CONSTANT at 14:1 from 900rpm to 7500rpm, and we both agree that the CR is held constant, so we can say that pressing the accelerator pedal doesn't mean an alteration of the AFR → therefore it doesn't translate into higher torque directly

The AFR values are not consequential to the throttle opening. They are a value we define. So the AFR is constant between those RPM and that load value, because we have told the ECU to try to make it constant.

Each of those boxes on the fuel map is telling the ECU:
At X RPM and Y load. Inject Z fuel to give the desired AFR.


So taking from above:
Although the AFR is constant over that rev range, a larger quantity of fuel is being injected PER CYCLE based on the volumetric efficiency.

What you should take from this is, the amount of air available is the primary driver for torque. From that we can add more or less fuel via the AFR fuel map to trim the power output.

You could set the map to 14.7 everywhere.
You could then set the map to 12.5 everywhere.

The rich map would give more power for a given quantity of air.
 
  • #54
It's also worth posting this separately as it's important.

you do not give permission for higher torque and then the rpm increase, on contrary to that, you first release the pedal to get more rpm and as it climbs up you then receive the correspondent high torque that is associated with whichever that rpm value is.

It doesn't really make sense to split this up as cause and effect as you have. Though from a physical point of view the chain of events is:
open throttle -> more air -> more fuel -> more torque -> increase in RPM
repreat

It's convenient to just think of it that opening the throttle does both simultaneously. Thinking of the throttle as a 'torque request' is merely an abstraction to aid thought.
 
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  • #55
xxChrisxx said:
Lets say this bike has a 1000cc engine and it's most efficient breathing is at 7000rpm at WOT (100% load) with a VE of 100%. But at 6000rpm it only breathes at 80% volumetric efficiency.

Per Cycle:
6000rpm - 0.8L air is available for combustion
7000rpm - 1L of air is available for combustion
That's nice, now we can say we have nailed one fact which is the AFR doesn't/ shouldn't contribute in the acceleration of the engine as we press the accelerator pedal contrary to what is said in other forums.

Now, what you are stating here implies a change in CR, that is when a cylinder that has a CR of 10:1 is filled with 80% of air but would still compress it to the same volume then we now got an 8:1 CR, is it what you are saying ?
 
  • #56
xxChrisxx said:
It's also worth posting this separately as it's important.
It doesn't really make sense to split this up as cause and effect as you have. Though from a physical point of view the chain of events is:
open throttle -> more air -> more fuel -> more torque -> increase in RPM
repreat

It's convenient to just think of it that opening the throttle does both simultaneously. Thinking of the throttle as a 'torque request' is merely an abstraction to aid thought.
again this implies the same concept which is a variation in CR value as the more fuel is associated with the more air that enters due to the increased flow rate while being at a constant AFR

So is there any figure for the minimum CR value at idle ?
 
  • #57
All I can say is WOW! Talk about a thread that is getting nowhere.
 
  • #58
Averagesupernova said:
All I can say is WOW! Talk about a thread that is getting nowhere.
this topic might be a little complicated for some

Maybe that's why there is a lack of precise information about it on the internet ...

however, so far we have concluded that out of the four factors I have posted earlier, one of them is constant and that is the AFR, on the other hand the CR seems to be variable contrary to what we have thought, which then makes it three variables and one constant

and till now that defines the two primary factors for accelerating the gasoline engine by the accelerator pedal and these are :
- the air flow rate
- the compression ratio

as the third variable which is the firing rate has no direct effect in the process...

only thing missing now are some values of the variation of the CR, additionaly I would still want to ask about the possibility of having this value constant by say adding an electric supercharger ...

any thoughts what would happens then ?
 
  • #59
Sailor said:
Now, what you are stating here implies a change in CR, that is when a cylinder that has a CR of 10:1 is filled with 80% of air but would still compress it to the same volume then we now got an 8:1 CR, is it what you are saying ?

No! And it is very, very important that this next bit doesn't get glossed over.
The compression ratio is a RATIO. It doesn't matter how much stuff you have in the cylinder.

Compression ratio is determined by the geometry of the engine only! The volume at BDC and the Volume at TDC.
CR = V1/V2

V1 = Cylinder Volume at bottom of the stroke 10
V2 = Cylinder Volume at bottom of the stroke 1

CR = 10:1

This is a constant, it does not change.

If the cylinder is 200% filled, the compression ratio is 10:1
If the cylinder is 100% filled, the compression ratio is 10:1
If the cylinder is 80% filled, the compression ratio is 10:1
If the cylinder is 0.001% filled, the compression ratio is 10:1
You could fill it with the entire contents of the universe, or 1 molecule. The compression ratio would still be 10:1


I can't really stress how important this point is.
 
  • #60
Sailor said:
however, so far we have concluded that out of the four factors I have posted earlier, one of them is constant and that is the AFR, on the other hand the CR seems to be variable contrary to what we have thought, which then makes it three variables and one constant

Why you think the AFR is constant.
The previous posts have made it clear that it is a dependent variable

Sailor said:
That's nice, now we can say we have nailed one fact which is the AFR doesn't/ shouldn't contribute in the acceleration of the engine as we press the accelerator pedal contrary to what is said in other forums.

We could say that, but we'd be very wrong.

xxChrisxx said:
What you should take from this is, the amount of air available is the primary driver for torque. From that we can add more or less fuel via the AFR fuel map to trim the power output.

You could set the map to 14.7 everywhere.
You could then set the map to 12.5 everywhere.

The rich map would give more power for a given quantity of air.

This clearly states that being richer WILL affect power output, and therefore the speed at which the engine will accelerate.
 
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  • #61
I might repeat stuff already said, but for clarity purposes, here I go:

To change the rpm you need to accelerate (or decelerate) the crankshaft assembly. To get an accelation, you rely on good old F = ma; or in rotation:

\tau_{in} - \tau_{out} = I\alpha (reference)

\tau_{out} is the torque needed to maintain the load put on the engine and \tau_{in} is the torque due to the pressure exerted on the piston (minus the losses).

If they are both equal, then \alpha = 0. Otherwise, the rotational acceleration \alpha becomes either negative or positive, leading to a reduction or an increase of the rpm.

What we can control and vary is \tau_{in}.

Here is a mathematical definition of \tau_{in}:

\tau_{in} = BMEP\frac{V_d}{\theta_c} (reference)

BMEP = Brake Mean Effective Pressure;
V_d = Volume of air displaced for one cycle (displacement);
\theta_c = crankshaft angular duration of one cycle.

Knowing that the Brake Specific Fuel Consumption (BSFC) can be defined by:

BSFC = \frac{\rho_{atm}VE}{AFR \times BMEP} (reference)

\rho_{atm} = atmospheric air density;
VE = Volumetric Efficiency;
AFR = Air-Fuel Ratio.

Replacing BMEP, we get for \tau_{in}:

\tau_{in} = \frac{\rho_{atm}}{BSFC}\frac{VE}{AFR}\frac{V_d}{\theta_c}

This equation gives us all the parameters that affect the torque of the engine:

\rho_{atm}: It is a given so it cannot be controlled by the operator;

BSFC: It depends on the design and construction of the engine (thermodynamic cycle, friction losses, combustion efficiency, etc) so it cannot be controlled by the operator;

That leaves us with 4 different ways to control the input torque of the engine (in other words, how to change its rpm):

VE: We can achieve that by restricting the airflow. Less air means less air-fuel mixture, hence less energy released during combustion. This is what happens in a gasoline engine when we control the throttle with the gas pedal while keeping the AFR constant;

AFR: We can achieve that by controlling the fuel input, while keeping the air inlet (or VE) constant. This is what happens in a diesel engine when we control the fuel pump with the gas pedal.

\theta_c: We can achieve that by varying the length of a cycle. This is the control used in a hit-and-miss engine. The intake valve stays close as long as needed to prevent the air-fuel mixture to enter the cylinder, hence lengthening the cycle (in number of revolutions of the crankshaft).

V_d: We could achieved that method by varying the displacement of the engine. For example, by cancelling intake valve overture for certain cylinders when we want to decrease the torque. Although, I never heard of any engine working this way (Variable-displacement engine are close, but the objective is not to control the torque of the engine).

Other parameters can slightly vary (ignition advance, compression ratio, stoiechiometric AFR (in gasoline engine), etc.) but their purpose is not to control the torque input, but to achieve optimization of the combustion under a given circumstance.

For example, a rich AFR will give more power and a poor AFR will give better fuel economy, and this at any rpm. So it is typical to set a poor mixture at idle (who needs power at that rpm?) and to get the richest mixture at high rpm (why would you go all the way to the max rpm if you didn't want all the power you can get?). But all of this has nothing to do with controlling the torque input of your engine.
 
  • #62
Sailor said:
… however, so far we have concluded that out of the four factors I have posted earlier, one of them is constant and that is the AFR, …
That can not be concluded. You are assuming the engine has a simple carburettor.

Carburettors restrict variation of AFR, while direct fuel injection makes any AFR possible.

There is rarely an advantage in running on the rich side of the stoichiometric mix, but there can be significant advantages of running on the lean side. Many engines are designed to operate with excess air when idling cool.
 
  • #63
xxChrisxx said:
Compression ratio is determined by the geometry of the engine only! The volume at BDC and the Volume at TDC.
CR = V1/V2

V1 = Cylinder Volume at bottom of the stroke 10
V2 = Cylinder Volume at bottom of the stroke 1

CR = 10:1
Let's put terminology aside for a second ...

what you have stated here is that in a given condition a certain volume of air and let it be V1 will fill the cylinder and therefor is compressed into a new volume V2 as the cylinder reaches TDC, now this compressed amount WILL have different resultant properties (e.g temperature, pressure) than a volume V3 that equals 0.8V1 and enters the same cylinder to be compressed into V2 while keeping CONSTANT elementary pressure and equal densities

Now aside from the normal "compression ratio" you referred to which indicates the physical boundaries of the metal cylinder, let's make up a NEW terminology in this discussion and call it "air compression ratio"

Now it's clearly that V1/V2 is different than V3/V2, hence the variation in "air compression ratio" which in essence implies a variation in the volumetric efficiency
And that's exactly what I meant

So now the question is how much could V3 differ from V1 and still be combustible ?
 
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  • #64
xxChrisxx said:
Why you think the AFR is constant.
The previous posts have made it clear that it is a dependent variable
No, we actually had an evident that an engine could (and I'm thinking this is the ideal case) accelerate with an absolute CONSTANT AFR

The variation of the AFR (in gasoline engines) should be meant to modify the consumption/economy of the vehicle rather than to accelerate it

And this is exactly what I have observed from other real world readings of the AFR value ...
xxChrisxx said:
This clearly states that being richer WILL affect power output, and therefore the speed at which the engine will accelerate.
in a gasoline engine the difference between a richer and a leaner state has a very narrow band that would makes the acceleration effect almost redundant
 
  • #65
jack action said:
I might repeat stuff already said, but for clarity purposes, here I go:

To change the rpm you need to accelerate (or decelerate) the crankshaft assembly. To get an accelation, you rely on good old F = ma; or in rotation:

\tau_{in} - \tau_{out} = I\alpha (reference)

\tau_{out} is the torque needed to maintain the load put on the engine and \tau_{in} is the torque due to the pressure exerted on the piston (minus the losses).

If they are both equal, then \alpha = 0. Otherwise, the rotational acceleration \alpha becomes either negative or positive, leading to a reduction or an increase of the rpm.

What we can control and vary is \tau_{in}.

Here is a mathematical definition of \tau_{in}:

\tau_{in} = BMEP\frac{V_d}{\theta_c} (reference)

BMEP = Brake Mean Effective Pressure;
V_d = Volume of air displaced for one cycle (displacement);
\theta_c = crankshaft angular duration of one cycle.

Knowing that the Brake Specific Fuel Consumption (BSFC) can be defined by:

BSFC = \frac{\rho_{atm}VE}{AFR \times BMEP} (reference)

\rho_{atm} = atmospheric air density;
VE = Volumetric Efficiency;
AFR = Air-Fuel Ratio.

Replacing BMEP, we get for \tau_{in}:

\tau_{in} = \frac{\rho_{atm}}{BSFC}\frac{VE}{AFR}\frac{V_d}{\theta_c}

This equation gives us all the parameters that affect the torque of the engine:

\rho_{atm}: It is a given so it cannot be controlled by the operator;

BSFC: It depends on the design and construction of the engine (thermodynamic cycle, friction losses, combustion efficiency, etc) so it cannot be controlled by the operator;

That leaves us with 4 different ways to control the input torque of the engine (in other words, how to change its rpm):

VE: We can achieve that by restricting the airflow. Less air means less air-fuel mixture, hence less energy released during combustion. This is what happens in a gasoline engine when we control the throttle with the gas pedal while keeping the AFR constant;

AFR: We can achieve that by controlling the fuel input, while keeping the air inlet (or VE) constant. This is what happens in a diesel engine when we control the fuel pump with the gas pedal.

\theta_c: We can achieve that by varying the length of a cycle. This is the control used in a hit-and-miss engine. The intake valve stays close as long as needed to prevent the air-fuel mixture to enter the cylinder, hence lengthening the cycle (in number of revolutions of the crankshaft).

V_d: We could achieved that method by varying the displacement of the engine. For example, by cancelling intake valve overture for certain cylinders when we want to decrease the torque. Although, I never heard of any engine working this way (Variable-displacement engine are close, but the objective is not to control the torque of the engine).

Other parameters can slightly vary (ignition advance, compression ratio, stoiechiometric AFR (in gasoline engine), etc.) but their purpose is not to control the torque input, but to achieve optimization of the combustion under a given circumstance.

For example, a rich AFR will give more power and a poor AFR will give better fuel economy, and this at any rpm. So it is typical to set a poor mixture at idle (who needs power at that rpm?) and to get the richest mixture at high rpm (why would you go all the way to the max rpm if you didn't want all the power you can get?). But all of this has nothing to do with controlling the torque input of your engine.
:thumbs:

Excellent intricacy jack action, and thank you very much for the highly valuable input, that pretty much nailed almost all of the aspects about this subject

So again we can conform the following :
- the AFR is/ could/ should be CONSTANT, in other words we DO NOT require richer AFR to accelerate the engine.
- the VE here relates to both the change in the compressed volume of air (air compression ratio as I've called it) and the change in air flow rate, so it's clearly that these two factors are VARIABLES.
- Firing rate is totally obsolete, though it is still variable.

Now the definition of \theta_c is very interesting because I think it describes BMW's Valvetronic system, and infact I did think about adding this technology to the discussion later on

varying V_d in order to control the rpm is almost infeasible and doesn't make sense at all

So back to my question about keeping the air compression ratio constant while still being able to change the rpm, I thing this COULD be done by altering the value of \theta_c, although this may not be the case with Vaivetronic, nevertheless, I believe there would not be enough room to have a complete variation in speed which would then makes it similar to the variation of AFR in a gasoline engine

As for diesels, I think their concept is pretty much straightforward and easy to understand


Again thank you jack action very much, :smile:
 
  • #66
Baluncore said:
That can not be concluded. You are assuming the engine has a simple carburettor.

Carburettors restrict variation of AFR, while direct fuel injection makes any AFR possible.

There is rarely an advantage in running on the rich side of the stoichiometric mix, but there can be significant advantages of running on the lean side. Many engines are designed to operate with excess air when idling cool.
check post #51 it shows the outputs of a modern ECU controlled engine

This coincides with my findings before starting this thread, and again what you describe could be related to fuel economy and should not be confused with the pure acceleration action of the engine by the throttle pedal inputs
 
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  • #67
This is still not getting anywhere. Sailor, clearly specify what other clarifications you need. I think except for A/F ratio, all other three have been seriously dealt with and you don't have any objections regarding that.
Regarding A/F ratio, it is both constant and variable, depending on the construction of the engine (carburettor? Injection? Special carburettors?).
 
  • #68
PhysicoRaj said:
This is still not getting anywhere. Sailor, clearly specify what other clarifications you need. I think except for A/F ratio, all other three have been seriously dealt with and you don't have any objections regarding that.
Regarding A/F ratio, it is both constant and variable, depending on the construction of the engine (carburettor? Injection? Special carburettors?).
Actually I think this thread has progressed nicely and we've come to the conclusion in post #66

The only one question that remains is :
Sailor said:
how much could V3 differ from V1 and still be combustible ?

regarding the variability of the AFR in a gasoline engine and by eliminating the deficiencies of carburetors and ECONOMY intentions, we are left with a very narrow range of values to play with, therefore IDEALLY it should be CONSTANT which means the accelerator pedal could (and is) function normally when we hold the AFR constant
 
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  • #69
Sailor said:
This coincides with my findings before starting this thread, and again what you describe could be related to fuel economy and should not be confused with the pure acceleration action of the engine by the throttle pedal inputs
Many vehicles couple the accelerator pedal directly to the injection pump.
The air flow is kept proportional to RPM. The accelerator pedal causes a change of the AFR alone.
The title of this thread is “Accelerator pedal and rpm”.
 
  • #70
Sailor said:
Actually I think this thread has progressed nicely and we've come to the conclusion in post #66

You mean this?
Sailor said:
This coincides with my findings before starting this thread, and again what you describe could be related to fuel economy and should not be confused with the pure acceleration action of the engine by the throttle pedal inputs
This is not true for all engines.

Edit: As Baluncore said, it depends.
 
  • #71
Now if I were to answer this question my self
Sailor said:
how much could V3 differ from V1 and still be combustible ?

I would say that it depends on many variables such as air temperature, density, rpm besides the CR and AFR values,

these variables could then be measured and monitored by sensors, now whether this is the case with Valvetronic or not, I'm not sure, from what I've read so far I think there could be a defined value that is set for the minimum amount of air that enters the cylinder at idle

What I'm trying to find is the V3/V2 ratio that should be combustible at minimum save we have a stoichiometric mixture
 
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  • #72
Baluncore said:
Many vehicles couple the accelerator pedal directly to the injection pump.
The air flow is kept proportional to RPM. The accelerator pedal causes a change of the AFR alone.
The title of this thread is “Accelerator pedal and rpm”.
when you referred to carburetors in your previous comment I thought you were talking about gasoline engines specifically,

what you describe here is how the accelerator pedal in a diesel engine increases the rpm

However, if you are referring to a gasoline engine that has it's accelerator pedal attached to a fuel pump, then this would be interesting, and I would then ask you for links that entails this
 
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  • #73
PhysicoRaj said:
You mean this?

This is not true for all engines.

Edit: As Baluncore said, it depends.
There are other points as wellCan you confirm that there are gasoline engines that utilize AFR solely to increase rpm ?
 
  • #74
Here are some images of the carburettor from my motorcycle. I found the manual and looked for the carburettor, found out the Air to fuel ratio controlling screw and the throttle housing location.

This is the complete carburettor:
attachment.php?attachmentid=71095&stc=1&d=1404638640.jpg
This is the A/F ratio controlling screw (I have a screw driver at it):
attachment.php?attachmentid=71096&stc=1&d=1404638640.jpg
This is the throttle housing and control cable (look at the screw driver):
attachment.php?attachmentid=71097&stc=1&d=1404638640.jpg


I turned on the engine and set out to test:
When I turn the A/F ratio screw, I can change the rpm in any position of the throttle.
When I open the throttle, it also increases the rpm, at any angle of the A/F control screw.
Note that the A/F screw can be turned by 180 degrees on both sides, can have a considerable effect on rpm.
 

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  • #75
PhysicoRaj said:
Here are some images of the carburettor from my motorcycle. I found the manual and looked for the carburettor, found out the Air to fuel ratio controlling screw and the throttle housing location.

This is the complete carburettor:


This is the A/F ratio controlling screw (I have a screw driver at it):


This is the throttle housing and control cable (look at the screw driver):


I turned on the engine and set out to test:
When I turn the A/F ratio screw, I can change the rpm in any position of the throttle.
When I open the throttle, it also increases the rpm, at any angle of the A/F control screw.
Note that the A/F screw can be turned by 180 degrees on both sides, can have a considerable effect on rpm.
thanks PhysicoRaj for the nice post,

can you indicate the values of rpm you're having ?, could you vary the rpm from idle to redline ?

because only then we can say that varying AFR in a gasoline engine could substitute air flow rate as an influential factor otherwise it would just be similar to how θ can alter the rpm which isn't sufficient enough to be considered separately in a gasoline engine
 
  • #76
Sailor said:
thanks PhysicoRaj for the nice post,

can you indicate the values of rpm you're having ?, could you vary the rpm from idle to redline ?

because only then we can say that varying AFR in a gasoline engine could substitute air flow rate as an influential factor otherwise it would just be similar to how θ can alter the rpm which isn't sufficient enough to be considered separately in a gasoline engine

In the manual it is stated that the idle rpm is about 1400 rpm. The manual doesn't say how much it can be varied by the A/F screw, but I am going to guess, I could alter it by around 1000 rpm. So with the A/F control screw, I can vary the rpm as ##1400\pm1000## rpm. But not to the redline (which is around 10500 I guess).

Important note: I recently found out in the manual that the A/F screw is not linear. That is, With different positions of the throttle, different changes in rpm can be made by the same amount of turn of the A/F screw. That's why I managed to give you a value at the idle state.
 
  • #77
PhysicoRaj said:
In the manual it is stated that the idle rpm is about 1400 rpm. The manual doesn't say how much it can be varied by the A/F screw, but I am going to guess, I could alter it by around 1000 rpm. So with the A/F control screw, I can vary the rpm as ##1400\pm1000## rpm. But not to the redline (which is around 10500 I guess).
since the redline is at 10500 then you are only allowed to make less than 10% modification to the rpm, so I think we can say that the change in rpm as a result of varying the AFR is actually a side effect of a more direct function which could be increasing/ lowering the consumption rate or perhaps it's related somehow to NHV or something or it might aid in fine tuning the idle rpm ...

also note that for the gasoline engine to have a reasonable efficient combustion the variation in AFR should be kept that much small, because if these variations were to be open to the extreme without any restrictions then you could either flood the engine or kill it ...
 
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  • #78
PhysicoRaj said:
Important note: I recently found out in the manual that the A/F screw is not linear. That is, With different positions of the throttle, different changes in rpm can be made by the same amount of turn of the A/F screw. That's why I managed to give you a value at the idle state.
Maybe they do not want you to touch it in the first place :smile: :biggrin:
 
  • #79
Recent update: I opened the throttle slightly more than half, turned the A/F ratio screw to the max extent and the tachometer almost touched the redline!

My example of my carburettor was not to state that my bike has A/F ratio as the sole reason for revving up. I am just asserting that A/F ratio can have a significant effect on rpm. This convinces that A/F ratio is variable, but independent of throttle in my engine. Other engines with computerized fuel injections do have some means of altering A/F ratio as the accelerator pedal is pressed.

Conclusion: A/F ratio affects rpm. It is left to the discretion of the manufacturer of the engine to decide whether he wants it constant or variable through out the rpm range.
 
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  • #80
Sailor said:
Maybe they do not want you to touch it in the first place :smile: :biggrin:

Then they would not provide a screw :-p

since the redline is at 10500 then you are only allowed to make less than 10% modification to the rpm, so I think we can say that the change in rpm as a result of varying the AFR is actually a side effect of a more direct function which could be increasing/ lowering the consumption rate or perhaps it's related somehow to NHV or something or it might aid in fine tuning the idle rpm ...
I am just guessing the redline. I can give you the exact value later.
10% modification can have a huge effect on rpm when the throttle is considerably open, since A/F screw is non-linear. That's why I got the redline with throttle more than half open and A/F to the max. extent.
 
  • #81
PhysicoRaj said:
Recent update: I opened the throttle slightly more than half, turned the A/F ratio screw to the max extent and the tachometer almost touched the redline!

My example of my carburettor was not to state that my bike has A/F ratio as the sole reason for revving up. I am just asserting that A/F ratio can have a significant effect on rpm. This convinces that A/F ratio is variable, but constant in my engine. Other engines with computerized fuel injections do have some means of altering A/F ratio as the accelerator pedal is pressed.

Conclusion: A/F ratio affects rpm. It is left to the discretion of the manufacturer of the engine to decide whether he wants it constant or variable through out the rpm range.
A/F ofcourse does affect rpm like for example if you would have 0 AFR then you will have 0 rpm but more important is you would actually have 0 rpm much earlier than that I'm guessing around 5 or even 6, a little higher ratio and you should now have extremely lean mixure that is not suffecient enough for normal usage, again this means you have a very narrow band in a gasoline engine to deal with which is not useful for varying the rpm on it's own like the other factors

Now back to your experiment, it is very important to mention the rpm values before and after the variation in AFR, only then we can build a solid conclusion about it
 
  • #82
PhysicoRaj said:
Then they would not provide a screw :-p


I am just guessing the redline. I can give you the exact value later.
10% modification can have a huge effect on rpm when the throttle is considerably open, since A/F screw is non-linear. That's why I got the redline with throttle more than half open and A/F to the max. extent.
Awaiting for the exact values ...

10% isn't suffecient enough to make it an effective factor in the processs, this could be equal to the variation in valve timing for example which is a feature utilized for tuning power and effeciency and not to increase rpm, even though the rpm might actally change a little from it
 
  • #83
Sailor said:
A/F ofcourse does affect rpm..
This is the answer to post #1.

Sailor said:
...again this means you have a very narrow band in a gasoline engine to deal with which is not useful for varying the rpm on it's own like the other factors
That's why there's something called the throttle.
Okay, you are talking about gasoline engines. See my quote, I have added something:
PhysicoRaj said:
This convinces that A/F ratio is variable, but independent of throttle in my engine. Other engines with computerized fuel injections do have some means of altering A/F ratio as the accelerator pedal is pressed.


Sailor said:
Now back to your experiment, it is very important to mention the rpm values before and after the variation in AFR, only then we can build a solid conclusion about it
I searched the net and got the info that my bike gives maximum torque at 6750 rpm. So I am guessing that must be the limit. Manual says idle is 1400 rpm.
At throttle slightly open, variation in rpm due to AFR change was 1000 rpm. With throttle half open, same amount of change in AFR got me to the redline.
 
  • #84
pardon me for raining on you parade but that screw on the carb is to adjust the idle speed of the engine. If there are two screws present, one is for idle adjust and the other is low rpm idle richness adjustment. These have no other use than to keep the engine running when the throttle is not in use. If you will read the legend you will find number 8 and number 10 jets. These are jets that are set by the factory. NOTE - MAIN JET controls the Air/ Fuel Ratio. Nothing the rider can do can adjust the A/F ratio. This is to say, there is a metering hole in the jet. The amount of gasoline passing thru the jet is fixed. What is not fixed is the amount of air passing thru the carb and the throttle controls this. Nothing the rider can do can adjust the compression ration. Both are fixed. This engine has a 8 to 1 compression ratio and you can not change it. Also the timing is set and unless the operator has access to a timing light and degree wheel, the timing is set for idle and for the amount of spark advance. The only thing the rider can do it twist the throttle and let more air into the engine to be mixed with the fixed amount of gasoline as dictated by the JET.

Now Chris xx and Jack have both taken a lot of time to explain these things but unless you can grasp the concept that this fixed JET metering out gasoline is constant as is the compression ration , then we can not continue to post. Savvy?
 

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  • #85
Ranger Mike said:
pardon me for raining on you parade but that screw on the carb is to adjust the idle speed of the engine. If there are two screws present, one is for idle adjust and the other is low rpm idle richness adjustment. These have no other use than to keep the engine running when the throttle is not in use. If you will read the legend you will find number 8 and number 10 jets. These are jets that are set by the factory. NOTE - MAIN JET controls the Air/ Fuel Ratio. Nothing the rider can do can adjust the A/F ratio. This is to say, there is a metering hole in the jet. The amount of gasoline passing thru the jet is fixed. What is not fixed is the amount of air passing thru the carb and the throttle controls this. Nothing the rider can do can adjust the compression ration. Both are fixed. This engine has a 8 to 1 compression ratio and you can not change it. Also the timing is set and unless the operator has access to a timing light and degree wheel, the timing is set for idle and for the amount of spark advance. The only thing the rider can do it twist the throttle and let more air into the engine to be mixed with the fixed amount of gasoline as dictated by the JET.

Now Chris xx and Jack have both taken a lot of time to explain these things but unless you can grasp the concept that this fixed JET metering out gasoline is constant as is the compression ration , then we can not continue to post. Savvy?

Ranger Mike, my manual says that is the main jet screw. And main jet adjusts the A/F ratio. Either the manual is wrong or I'm turning the wrong screw?
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  • #86
correct..it is for the purpose of setting the idle rpm. But note that the adjustment screw only permits gasoline to enter the carb during idle. If you observe, t here is another passage next to the main jet fuel feed that i think is the idle fuel feed passage. Once sufficent rpm is achieved the main carb circuit takes over. Also note that the main jet is fixed. Again the diameter of the main jet dictates the final fuel/air ratio and this can be assumed to be at wide open throttle.
So you set the throttle stop needle that keeps the slide body open enough to keep the engine running and adjust the idle fuel mix to trickle in enough gas so when you twist the throttle there is enough fuel to make transition to the main fuel circuit smooth with no stumbling ( off idle response).
Once there is enough RPM the engine is totally on the main fuel jet.
 
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  • #87
PhysicoRaj said:
This is the answer to post #1.
Worng, my question asks about the acceleration pedal and it does not lead to 0 rpm nor to any value that would kill the engine and again we have confirmed in post #62 by jack and #66 what the variations are about and for what reasons
That's why there's something called the throttle.
Okay, you are talking about gasoline engines. See my quote, I have added something:
Throttle range is much wider than the 10% you have stated, there is no relation between them

I searched the net and got the info that my bike gives maximum torque at 6750 rpm. So I am guessing that must be the limit. Manual says idle is 1400 rpm.
At throttle slightly open, variation in rpm due to AFR change was 1000 rpm. With throttle half open, same amount of change in AFR got me to the redline.
Your point isn't clear

What should the maximum torque indicate in here

Again, unless there are solid numbers, this would implies nothing
 
  • #88
Ranger Mike said:
correct..it is for the purpose of setting the idle rpm. But note that the adjustment screw only permits gasoline to enter the carb during idle. Once sufficent rpm is achieved the main carb circuit takes over. Also note tbat the main jet is fixed. Again the diameter of the main jet dictates the final fuel/air ratio and this can be assumed to be at wide open throttle.

But even when I 'half' opened the throttle, I could register a significant change in rpm when I turned that screw. That screw can be operated even while riding (I've used my nails to lower it when I am low on gas. Then I open the throttle fully to get more torque.)
So I guess that even if is an idle rpm adjuster, is connected to the main jet and somehow aletrs A/F ratio, resulting in change in rpm.
 
  • #89
without having a diagram of the internal passages of your carb i can take a guess. You have two circuits connected to the main jet. The needle screw adjusts the idle like i said. This fuel is still sucked up the carb even at high rpm and is always open so it contributes to the total amount of fuel the carb is using. At high rpm you can shut off the idle circuit but risk making the fuel /air mix too lean and burning an intake valve. Going wide open throttle invites this.
 
  • #90
Ranger Mike said:
pardon me for raining on you parade but that screw on the carb is to adjust the idle speed of the engine. If there are two screws present, one is for idle adjust and the other is low rpm idle richness adjustment. These have no other use than to keep the engine running when the throttle is not in use. If you will read the legend you will find number 8 and number 10 jets. These are jets that are set by the factory. NOTE - MAIN JET controls the Air/ Fuel Ratio. Nothing the rider can do can adjust the A/F ratio. This is to say, there is a metering hole in the jet. The amount of gasoline passing thru the jet is fixed. What is not fixed is the amount of air passing thru the carb and the throttle controls this. Nothing the rider can do can adjust the compression ration. Both are fixed. This engine has a 8 to 1 compression ratio and you can not change it. Also the timing is set and unless the operator has access to a timing light and degree wheel, the timing is set for idle and for the amount of spark advance. The only thing the rider can do it twist the throttle and let more air into the engine to be mixed with the fixed amount of gasoline as dictated by the JET.

Now Chris xx and Jack have both taken a lot of time to explain these things but unless you can grasp the concept that this fixed JET metering out gasoline is constant as is the compression ration , then we can not continue to post. Savvy?
Thanks sgain Rabger for your input,

As for the compression ratio and the ignition rate I think were discussed thoroughly and I have made a explanation of what I meant about the variation in compression contrary to what Chris has stated

Ignition rate of course has no effect whatsoever regardless of it being constant or vsriable because it's a driven entity not a driving one
 
  • #91
Ranger Mike said:
without having a diagram of the internal passages of your carb i can take a guess. You have two circuits connected to the main jet. The needle screw adjusts the idle like i said. This fuel is still sucked up the carb even at high rpm and is always open so it contributes to the total amount of fuel the carb is using. At high rpm you can shut off the idle circuit but risk making the fuel /air mix too lean and burning an intake valve. Going wide open throttle invites this.

Ok now I understand this.
 
  • #92
Sailor said:
Worng, my question asks about the acceleration pedal, and it does not lead to 0 rpm nor to any value that would kill the engine and again we have confirmed in post #62 by jack and #66 what the variations are about and for what reasons

That's what, accelerator pedal is connected to throttle butterfly and AFR control, or, throttle butterfly only. Connecting the accelerator pedal to AFR is manufacturer's choice. See Baluncore's posts:
Baluncore said:
That can not be concluded. You are assuming the engine has a simple carburettor.
Carburettors restrict variation of AFR, while direct fuel injection makes any AFR possible.
Many vehicles couple the accelerator pedal directly to the injection pump.
The air flow is kept proportional to RPM. The accelerator pedal causes a change of the AFR alone.
The title of this thread is “Accelerator pedal and rpm”.
Sailor said:
Throttle range is much wider than the 10% you have stated, there is no relation between them
I never said throttle range is 10%. What I said was since AFR screw can change rpm by only 10%, throttle is provided.

Sailor said:
Your point isn't clear

What should the maximum torque indicate in here

Again, unless there are solid numbers, this would implies nothing

I just thought that max torque occurs at max rpm. If that's true, my engine's redline is 6750 rpm.
Sorry, I could not fetch more numbers.
 
  • #93
Without question or context, this thread will go in circles at a high RPM, for ever.
There seems to be no reason behind it, other than an OP need to herd cats.

While the universe may be infinite, human belief systems appear closed and finite.
What does it matter how today’s technology operates, it is only an ephemeral aberration.

What has RPM got to do with anything. RPM must be multiplied by torque to get any usable power.
The consideration of RPM alone, without a torque curve, is not engineering, it is meaningless.
What is engineering if it is not the management of energy flow.

A bicycle has two accelerator pedals, yet it is more energy efficient than an IC engine.
 
  • #94
PhysicoRaj said:
That's what, accelerator pedal is connected to throttle butterfly and AFR control, or, throttle butterfly only. Connecting the accelerator pedal to AFR is manufacturer's choice. See Baluncore's posts:
In a GASOLINE engine this is not valied

The accelerator pedal in a gasoline engine is not connected directly to the feul pump thus does not alter the AFR, any modifications in the AFR by the ECU in modern cars are meant for other benefits we have already stated this many times

I asked you and Baluncore for proof of a gasoline fuel pump that is driven by the accelerator pedal but you have proved nothing yet
I never said throttle range is 10%. What I said was since AFR screw can change rpm by only 10%, throttle is provided.
And I told you that this incrementation is meaningless and equals the increase made by valve timing, and such actions are never utilized, so this prove nothing that relates the accelerator pedal to rpm

I just thought that max torque occurs at max rpm. If that's true, my engine's redline is 6750 rpm.
Sorry, I could not fetch more numbers.
I'm also sorry because without defined numbers this whole concept can go no further ...
 
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  • #95
Baluncore said:
Without question or context, this thread will go in circles at a high RPM, for ever.
There seems to be no reason behind it, other than an OP need to herd cats.

While the universe may be infinite, human belief systems appear closed and finite.
What does it matter how today’s technology operates, it is only an ephemeral aberration.

What has RPM got to do with anything. RPM must be multiplied by torque to get any usable power.
The consideration of RPM alone, without a torque curve, is not engineering, it is meaningless.
What is engineering if it is not the management of energy flow.

A bicycle has two accelerator pedals, yet it is more energy efficient than an IC engine.
Obviously, either you didn't read all the comments or you consider yourself one of these cats, no offence

The importance of this topic is to aid in defining which factors have more influence on the rpm of an engine (gasoline in particular) when pressing the accelerator pedal so we can isolate the less influential or less effective ones and from there you should have better understanding of the whole subject, and as of now it appears clearly that this ain't a straitforward matter, hence all the discussion that was made, and I do think it was fruitful and very informative
Pity you don't see it like this

about torque curve Physicoraj brought one and I have been asking for numbers all the time, so if there was a lack of numbers then this thread should help in defining this problem in hope more sceintific research will be done about it

Finally, if you don't like the thread you could simply ignore it all together
 
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  • #96
Sailor said:
which factors have more influence on the rpm of an engine (gasoline in particular)
Sailor, is this your final question? Did you get a satisfactory answer to it?
 
  • #97
PhysicoRaj said:
Sailor, is this your final question? Did you get a satisfactory answer to it?
Yes I believe I have got satisfactory answers to most of the questions

The only one that is left is in post #69

But unless this question had been dealt with before it might require a lab experiment
 
  • #98
Sailor said:
Yes I believe I have got satisfactory answers to most of the questions

The only one that is left is in post #69

But unless this question had been dealt with before it might require a lab experiment

So you are expecting a proof for the accelerator pedal linked to AFR regulator, which in turn is directly indulged in increasing RPM of engine(accelerating the vehicle.)
And your view is that even though the AFR regulator might be linked to the accelerator pedal, it might be due to some other reason (economy reasons according to you) and not for increasing RPM.
And you need solid proof.
 
  • #99
PhysicoRaj said:
So you are expecting a proof for the accelerator pedal linked to AFR regulator, which in turn is directly indulged in increasing RPM of engine(accelerating the vehicle.)
And your view is that even though the AFR regulator might be linked to the accelerator pedal, it might be due to some other reason (economy reasons according to you) and not for increasing RPM.
And you need solid proof.
Exactly, that is what I'm saying, that the alteration in AFR is never meant to accelerate the gasoline engine normaly through the accelerator pedal

The proof is meant pecisely for the linkage between the accelerator pedal and a FEUL PUMP in a gasoline engine in particular as Balucore has claimed rather that just discribing an AFR device
 
  • #100
Sailor said:
The importance of this topic is to aid in defining which factors have more influence on the rpm of an engine (gasoline in particular) when pressing the accelerator pedal so we can isolate the less influential or less effective ones and from there you should have better understanding of the whole subject, and as of now it appears clearly that this ain't a straitforward matter, hence all the discussion that was made, and I do think it was fruitful and very informative
Pity you don't see it like this
I do understand the subject very well indeed. I just don't see the point of a reductionist classification that demands some things to be more fixed and some things to be more variable. The world is not that simple, as you may now be beginning to realize since you have written;
Sailor said:
… as of now it appears clearly that this ain't a straitforward matter …

Sailor said:
Finally, if you don't like the thread you could simply ignore it all together
Then you would never learn anything about the wonderful variability of this universe, nor how to ask a rational question that can actually be answered.

Susan Sontag said:
The only interesting answers are those which destroy the questions.
 
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