How does the change in area affect the velocity of helium gas in a vacuum?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the effect of area changes on the velocity of helium gas in a vacuum system, particularly in the context of using the gas to carry aerosolized particles. Participants explore the application of Bernoulli's equation and the implications of compressible flow in this scenario.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant assumes conservation of mass and mass flow to find the exit stream velocity of helium gas, suggesting that changes in area lead to changes in velocity to maintain constant mass flow.
  • Another participant argues that using only the inlet and outlet for analysis is insufficient due to pressure losses in the system, indicating that not all pressure converts to velocity.
  • There is a suggestion that the reported gauge pressure implies the flow is likely compressible, which raises questions about the applicability of Bernoulli's equation.
  • A later reply confirms the existence of a compressible form of Bernoulli's equation but notes its complexity.
  • One participant proposes that the density of helium will change once it exits the gas tank due to the vacuum, suggesting the use of the ideal gas law to calculate density at vacuum pressure.
  • Another participant questions whether it is possible to use the relationship between density, velocity, and area to calculate the outlet velocity under the assumption of constant mass flow.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the applicability of Bernoulli's equation and the treatment of compressible flow. There is no consensus on the best approach to analyze the system, indicating ongoing debate and uncertainty.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the assumption of constant mass flow, the potential compressibility of the gas, and the complexity of applying the compressible form of Bernoulli's equation. The discussion does not resolve these issues.

ilc
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Hello

here is a schematic of the problem: http://imgur.com/CgcybVT

A stream of helium gas will be used to carry aerosolized particles.

I am assuming conservation of mass (and mass flow)

The mission is to find the exit stream velocity of the gas
. For the time being, i am assuming the weight of particle is negligible and doesn't reduce helium velocity.

I am using Bernoulli's equation... would it be correct to only focus on the inlet and exit ?

I feel the changes in area matter because as area increases, velocity decreases to maintain constant mass flow.

Advice?

Thanks!
EDIT: I forgot to mention the system is under vacuum, and he outlet pressure of 0.065 psi is that of the vacuum chamber

here is a better diagram: http://imgur.com/64b7WLT
 
Last edited:
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1) You can't use only the inlet and outlet since there are a lot of things in between there that are "lossy" in terms of pressure. In other words, not all of that pressure is going to be converted to velocity.

2) It appears that what you are reporting here is gauge pressure. If so, that strongly implies to me that this flow is likely compressible and you can't use Bernoulli's equation at all.
 
boneh3ad said:
1) You can't use only the inlet and outlet since there are a lot of things in between there that are "lossy" in terms of pressure. In other words, not all of that pressure is going to be converted to velocity.

2) It appears that what you are reporting here is gauge pressure. If so, that strongly implies to me that this flow is likely compressible and you can't use Bernoulli's equation at all.
There's a compressible form of Bernoulli equation, right?
 
Chestermiller said:
There's a compressible form of Bernoulli equation, right?

More of a "compressible generalization", but yes. Unfortunately, it is not very simple to use.
 
boneh3ad said:
1) You can't use only the inlet and outlet since there are a lot of things in between there that are "lossy" in terms of pressure. In other words, not all of that pressure is going to be converted to velocity.

2) It appears that what you are reporting here is gauge pressure. If so, that strongly implies to me that this flow is likely compressible and you can't use Bernoulli's equation at all.
Hi:
boneh3ad said:
1) You can't use only the inlet and outlet since there are a lot of things in between there that are "lossy" in terms of pressure. In other words, not all of that pressure is going to be converted to velocity.

2) It appears that what you are reporting here is gauge pressure. If so, that strongly implies to me that this flow is likely compressible and you can't use Bernoulli's equation at all.

Hi there,

it appears I forgot to mention the system is under vacuum... and the outlet pressure of 0.065 psi is that of the vacuum chamber

here is a better diagram: http://imgur.com/64b7WLT

We can assume vacuum extends upto the inlet Helium stream. This means density of Helium will change once it leaves the gas tank and that its compressible. As such, it makes calculate the density (rho = P*MW/(RT)) at vacuum pressure, right ?

With regards to your comment in 1): since i am assuming constant mass flow, couldn't i use rho*V*A between sections and work my way up to calculate the outlet velocity?
 

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