How Many People Actually Understand QM?

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What I mean to ask is, are there any statistics that detail the percentage of people on the planet who have the capacity to understand quantum mechanics?

I ask because I’ve heard a lot of people, who are very smart, say that they’ve attempt to work out the math of QM and were completely stumped. Perhaps logistical/mathematical understanding is not their strong suit and the show their intelligence in other areas. But still I’m just curious, what is it like, 2% or 1% (perhaps less) of the world’s population can understand QM?
 
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"I think, I can suggest, that nobody
understands the quantum mechanics." - Feynman

http://www.aaas.org/programs/international/caip/isc/Bauer/I.pdf
 
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robphy said:
"I think, I can suggest, that nobody
understands the quantummechanics." - Feynman

http://www.aaas.org/programs/international/caip/isc/Bauer/I.pdf

Actually, it is the essence of logic itself. The most obvious thing we could say about nature is that all things exist in conjunction. For obviously the chair that you are sitting on exist, and the floor holding up the chair exists, and the walls exist and the door exists, etc. This even applies to things we don't observe such as things in the other room. Though we assume they exist in conjunction with what we do observe, we have some uncertainty about the likelihood that they are still there. So we naturally assign some probability to the existence of things we haven't observed yet. For that matter, we might also assign some probability to things we do observe. Are things that we see exactly what we think they are?

And if we start with the presumption that all things are consistent, and each thing that exists does not prove the non-existence of any other thing that does exists, then again this is equal to saying all things exist in conjunction.
For

~(A->~B)=A*B

where "~" is negation, "->" is implication, and "*" is conjunction. Then the development I outlined (link below) proceeds logically to the path integral formulation of QM.

Since we have A*B=(A->B)*(B->A), and a probability is assigned to conjoining new facts, then implication, "->", can be seen as a path with an amplitude that is the square root of a probability (See Link).

So starting from the premise of logical consistency between all facts (whatever they might be) the path integral formulation of QM can be derived.

We're not allowed to talk about the details here since it is not on the arXive yet. Until then, see:

http://news.killfile.org/index.cgi?group=sci.physics.foundations&number=698
 
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Nobody understands QM to its full extent, but lots of people know enough to make calculations that are in accordance with expt., which is what we expect from any theory.

Off the top of my head, I would estimate that 5-10% of people have enough 'smarts' and aptitude to use QM as a useful tool. That probably translates to 75% of people on this board.

Basically, just about anyone who's smart enough to be interested in QM is probably smart enough to use QM.

However, if you're talking about the number of people smart/creative enough to develop the fundamental theories of QM in useful, novel and interesting ways not previously explored... That's maybe closer to 5% of 5%.

I can use QM as a tool without any great strain on the noggin- but I'm probably not skilled enough to really make much progress in questioning the fundamental foundations of QM in any new/interesting way.
 
christianjb said:
However, if you're talking about the number of people smart/creative enough to develop the fundamental theories of QM in useful, novel and interesting ways not previously explored... That's maybe closer to 5% of 5%.

really? for soemthing on that level, i thought it should be something more to the likes of .0003% of all people when it comes to pioneering the science
 
Ki Man said:
really? for soemthing on that level, i thought it should be something more to the likes of .0003% of all people when it comes to pioneering the science

Perhaps, but neither of us have any data. It may be that most of these smart people are concerned with other problems at the moment.
 
Those who think we don't understand quantum mehcanics should ask, "who understands classical mechanics?"

The principle of least action is at least as mysterious (if not more so) than the path integral formulation, in my opinion.
 
Define "understand" and you can answer the question. Otherwise this is just empty talk.
 
Use Oxford English Dictionary, Webster etc.
 
  • #10
masudr said:
Use Oxford English Dictionary, Webster etc.

OED gives 14 senses for the word 'understand' and most senses have several subsenses. Which one did you have in mind?
 
  • #11
jimmysnyder said:
OED gives 14 senses for the word 'understand' and most senses have several subsenses. Which one did you have in mind?

I can't access the OED online until I'm back on the College network. I'm moving back on Sunday.

Anyway, my point was that if we "understand classical mechanics", then whatever sense we mean by understand in that phrase, we can probably also apply that sense to the phrase we "understand quantum mechanics," hence making it irrelevant which sense I meant.

Besides, I'm not the OP. What sense did they mean when they said "understand"?
 
  • #12
masudr said:
Besides, I'm not the OP. What sense did they mean when they said "understand"?
Or "Quantum Mechanics". It covers a number of areas so large that I doubt any single person is even aware of all of its aspects, let alone understand them.

The OP wasn't really interested in knowing how many people understand the physics, they were asking how many can understand the math. I'm pretty sure they meant the math in an introductory text. When Feynman said no one understands QM, he didn't mean to imply that the authors couldn't do the math in their own books. In my opinion, anyone who is not mentally handicapped can understand an introductory QM text like Shankar's by the simple act of applying themselves to the task. However, lack of interest will prevent most people from commiting themselves for the amount of time it would take.
 
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  • #13
computer scientists
 
  • #14
masudr said:
I can't access the OED online until I'm back on the College network. I'm moving back on Sunday.

Anyway, my point was that if we "understand classical mechanics", then whatever sense we mean by understand in that phrase, we can probably also apply that sense to the phrase we "understand quantum mechanics," hence making it irrelevant which sense I meant.

Besides, I'm not the OP. What sense did they mean when they said "understand"?
I think it is safe to say that our ``understanding'' of classical mechanics is strongly motivated from experience with everyday objects whose objective existence is not questioned. Now, you were alluding to the variational principle : to my feeling the Newton laws are much more understandable than the Lagrangian formulation. Also, one can reformulate QM in terms of forces, where the wave function becomes a (rather strange) fluidum.
So, what we really do not understand in QM is the lack of an objective reality attached to either the wave and the particle, but we already knew this for long time ... :rolleyes:
 
  • #15
One difficulty in this thread is, what is "understanding?"

For example, the famous Feynman quote, and masudr's comments seem to me to be dealing with the very essence of things -- why is Nature the way it is? Why does QM work? Nobody has a clue; nobody understands...

But that's clearly not the whole story. I've known a couple of low-temperature experimentalists, who barely got through their theory courses. Yet they knew their stuff, QM and vacuum pumps, and knew it well. And, of course, their understanding was highly intuitive, feed by hands-on work. They were not particularly articulate nor demonstrative about their knowledge; they just did stuff, and they knew stuff.

I have absolutely no difficulty in saying that I understand QM. Prior to teaching QM. I might not have been so bold. I should append the word "practical" to "understand." Why the Schrodinger eq. why photons? Why the standard probability interpretation? Not to worry for your day job. Once you begin to master the mechanics of QM, you also learn about it's power to describe incredibly disparate phenomena. You learn by doing; you build an understanding based on practical experience. christianjb says much the same thing.

The DOL http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos052.htm article says there were roughly 16,000 working physicists in the US in 2004. The adult US population then was 218 million. So a generous estimate says that physicists comprise 1/100 of a percent of the adult population. Let's be generous and say another 16,000 are capable of doing QM with practical understanding, and we get up to 2/100% of the US adult population capable of working with and understanding QM.
Regards,
Reilly Atkinson
 
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  • #16
It all depends on what you mean by understanding.
If the math and the logic and the rules are involved, really many people understand QM.

But QM pushes our brain irremediably in some indeterminate state,
we get the impression that there is much more to understand,
but we even don't understand what.
 
  • #17
lalbatros said:
It all depends on what you mean by understanding.
If the math and the logic and the rules are involved, really many people understand QM.

(RA) You are describing school-book learning; which only helps prepare you for the real stuff. Without strong knowledge of the astonishing links between QM and experiment, you know basically nothing about QM.But QM pushes our brain irremediably in some indeterminate state,
we get the impression that there is much more to understand,
but we even don't understand what.
With the change of a word or two, you might as well be describing the human condition.

With all due respect, you encounter this intermediate state because you choose to. I say choose beause there are many physicists like me who take a very pragmatic approach to physics, and try to avoid indeterminacy in our thinking, at least about physics. So we don't worry about things like :why is the electrons's charge ? why spin?, why quarks; why does mass attract mass(substitute energy if you want,), why do Newton's Law's work; why do accelerating charges radiate?

Are these questions any less profound than, say, why does the Schrodinger eq. work? The plain fact is that it's all a big mystery, a cosmic crap shoot. To paraphrase Wigner's famous dictum; why in the hell should anything work?

The choice, then, is one of approach: pragmatic or formal, if you will. They are both certainly valid ways to procede. In the pragmatics world we say, "Sure, we understand QM, it works", in the formal world, they say,Of course we don't understand QM-- it may work, but why?

In today's informal language, QM is outside the box, the formalists want to get it inside the box we've already got; the pragmatisits say, grow the box as needed.

Regards,
Reilly Atkinson
 
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  • #18
masudr said:
Those who think we don't understand quantum mehcanics should ask, "who understands classical mechanics?"

The principle of least action is at least as mysterious (if not more so) than the path integral formulation, in my opinion.
IMO,this has been probably the best answer to OP's question so far! :approve:
 
  • #19
reilly,

I have this pragmatic approach too (I work as an engineer in the heavy industry).

However, everybody has come some day on strange questions in QM.
Strange but not necessary useful practically.
I am sure you know many of these questions, as you cited some of them.

For myself, the strange questions came right from the beginning.
I learn QM first in 1976. The teaching approach was based on the famous postulates.
The measurement process has a special place in this introduction to QM.
I had not yet studied the hydrogen atom, but I was already puzzled.
Why would the SE not be able to describe the measurement process?
Some years later, I even bought a collection of paper on this topis, edited by JA Wheeler.
I read a lot about it. I finally concluded this is a futile topic.
Well, still I would like to present QM in another way and show why and how the measurement postulate in useless.
I think I could not do that convincingly. Even with a toy model of the Stern-Gerlach experiment.

I just looked a bit at "Consistent Quantum Mechanics" by Griffiths on his web site.
Maybe I missed the right page, but I could not convince myself that this book could close this futile topic.

So, that illustrates how QM makes me (and others) wandering.

Michel
 
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  • #20
lalbatros said:
reilly,

I have this pragmatic approach too (I work as an engineer in the heavy industry).

However, everybody has come some day on strange questions in QM.
Strange but not necessary useful practically.
I am sure you know many of these questions, as you cited some of them.

For myself, the strange questions came right from the beginning.
I learn QM first in 1976. The teaching approach was based on the famous postulates.
The measurement process has a special place in this introduction to QM.
I had not yet studied the hydrogen atom, but I was already puzzled.
Why would the SE not be able to describe the measurement process?
Some years later, I even bought a collection of paper on this topis, edited by JA Wheeler.
I read a lot about it. I finally concluded this is a futile topic.
Well, still I would like to present QM in another way and show why and how the measurement postulate in useless.
I think I could not do that convincingly. Even with a toy model of the Stern-Gerlach experiment.

I just looked a bit at "Consistent Quantum Mechanics" by Griffiths on his web site.
Maybe I missed the right page, but I could not convince myself that this book could close this futile topic.

So, that illustrates how QM makes me (and others) wandering.

Michel

The easiest answer:

There is no collapse of the wavefunction! Ever!

The apparent collapse is a consequence of decoherence. Physicist Max Tegmark has some papers on this- in the context of Everett's many worlds interpretation.

All I know is that I never have to collapse the wavefunction in a computer simulation in order to get the right answer.
 
  • #21
I can only agree with that:

There is no collapse of the wavefunction! Ever!

But please no MWI, since as I said I prefer to be pragmatic!
A good reading is a few lines in §6 QM from Landau-Lifchitz.
I has always surprised me how apparently Landau considered the measurement "question" as trivial: the interaction with a classical system.

Michel
 
  • #22
lalbatros said:
A good reading is a few lines in §6 QM from Landau-Lifchitz.
I has always surprised me how apparently Landau considered the measurement "question" as trivial: the interaction with a classical system.
The only problem is that, according to QM, classical systems do not exist. :-p
 
  • #23
christianjb said:
However, if you're talking about the number of people smart/creative enough to develop the fundamental theories of QM in useful, novel and interesting ways not previously explored... That's maybe closer to 5% of 5%.

I can use QM as a tool without any great strain on the noggin- but I'm probably not skilled enough to really make much progress in questioning the fundamental foundations of QM in any new/interesting way.
It is my hope that my review
http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0609163
(which few days ago has been accepted for publication :smile: ) will increase that number.
 
  • #24
Demystifier said:
The only problem is that, according to QM, classical systems do not exist. :-p

Nonsense; with all due respect. Just a few things to ponder: the WBK or WKB approximation, the well known limits as angular momentum becomes very large; the asymptotic behavior of oscillators, ... There are very sophisticated papers that push toward understanding the properties of bulk matter; then there's electrical currents in metals, crystal structures, properties of gases and liquids, we are talking macrosopic systems, ,...The magnet on your refrigerator, most likely macroscopic one, is fundamentally a quantum system that works quite well as a classical system.

Why do you say QM precludes classical systems?
Regards,
Reilly Atkinson
 
  • #25
Demystifier said:
It is my hope that my review
http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0609163
(which few days ago has been accepted for publication :smile: ) will increase that number.

Where will it be published?
 
  • #26
lalbatros said:
I said I prefer to be pragmatic!
A good reading is a few lines in §6 QM from Landau-Lifchitz.

A good reading of all lines in §6, §7, §16 and §17 QM from Landau-Lifchitz will make you more pragmatic.

lalbatros said:
I has always surprised me how apparently Landau considered the measurement "question" as trivial: the interaction with a classical system.

Michel, if you will refresh your memory reading L.D.Landau and R. Peierls in W&Z p.465, it will help you to understand the differences between your and L.D.Landau POV. In addition, try not to miss the right page in all standard textbooks on QM.

Regards, Dany.
 
  • #27
christianjb said:
All I know is that I never have to collapse the wavefunction in a computer simulation in order to get the right answer.

I like your integrity. Therefore I prepare for you small souvenir.

From “Is the moon there when nobody looks? Reality and the quantum theory”
By N. David Mermin:

“Einstein didn’t like this. He wanted things out there to have properties, whether or not they were measured:

“We often discussed his notions on objective reality. I recall that during one walk Einstein suddenly stopped, turned to me and asked whether I really believed that the moon exists only when I look at it.”

Perhaps it is not so good piece, since it is clear that the moon exist without our presence. It is pure mechanical example. Let go more close-optics. Each morning you go to your toilette to brush your teeth. You see your face. If you put your friends from the left and from the right they will see the same picture. Is it there? You need photons to get it. It is obviously does not exist without photons. What it is? The question is not only whether or not it was measured, but also whether or not your image allows the measurement. I think the answer is no. I am not sure that it is correct. If the answer is yes, I have no problem. But if it is not, how I describe it mathematically: using self-adjoint operators or not self-adjoint operators? (Please, don’t refer to Wikipedia, I know much more than 2*2=4, Reflection matrix, etc.).

If I understood R.Penrose correctly, the mathematicians classify that question as unsolvable problem. But I know the mathematical solution in both cases! Apparently, I only don’t know to decide yet.

If your computer or your computer simulation will help me, I will be happy.

Regards, Dany.
 
  • #28
Hi Giuseppe, in the old days, we used to joke around that the same 12 people did everything. I think it may still be true today.
 
  • #29
Thrice said:
Define "understand" and you can answer the question. Otherwise this is just empty talk.

This reminds me another http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Feynman" :

Feynman said:
What does it mean, to understand? ... I don't know.
 
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  • #30
I am a very young person, therefor I have not been able to comprehend the mathematics involved with QM, but I believe I know a sufficient amount with the non-mathematical side of it for my age. Once I can get down some math, I will be able to conquer it all!
 
  • #31
lalbatros said:
reilly,

I have this pragmatic approach too (I work as an engineer in the heavy industry).

However, everybody has come some day on strange questions in QM.
Strange but not necessary useful practically.
I am sure you know many of these questions, as you cited some of them.

For myself, the strange questions came right from the beginning.

*1* I learn QM first in 1976. The teaching approach was based on the famous postulates.
The measurement process has a special place in this introduction to QM.
I had not yet studied the hydrogen atom, but I was already puzzled.
Why would the SE not be able to describe the measurement process?
Some years later, I even bought a collection of paper on this topis, edited by JA Wheeler.
I read a lot about it. I finally concluded this is a futile topic.
Well, still I would like to present QM in another way and show why and how the measurement postulate in useless.
I think I could not do that convincingly. Even with a toy model of the Stern-Gerlach experiment.

I just looked a bit at "Consistent Quantum Mechanics" by Griffiths on his web site.
Maybe I missed the right page, but I could not convince myself that this book could close this futile topic.

So, that illustrates how QM makes me (and others) wandering.

Michel
--------------------
*1* Too bad, I strongly believe that an intro to QM must, repeat must, deal with the phenomena that drove the development of the subject. QM is physics -- H atom, etc. -- not math. QM is strange because Nature is strange. Most of us do very nicely without axioms or postulates and so forth, if we know the physics. If you know QM axioms, but not the physics, then you have no chance to understand QM.

Measurement: Are you so sure that the classical measuring process can be fully explained? It cannot. The problem is measurement error; virtually any measurement we make has an associated error -- that's what statistics is all about. You cannot predict(for the most part) any measurement of anything; you might win occasionally, but your measurements in total will have a nonzero variance. QED
Regards,
Reilly Atkinson
 
  • #32
Edgardo said:
Where will it be published?
Foundations of Physics
BTW, this journal is not unknown, but the editor is known much more: G. 't Hooft
 
  • #33
Try this posting:

https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=1308908&postcount=1

Here I attempt to derive QM from nothing but classical logic alone starting from the premise that all facts must be consistent with each other. I've already discussed this with those at sci.physics.foundations, and nobody seemed to be able to find any objection with it. Maybe I'll get more relevant conversation here at PF.
 
  • #34
Mike2 said:
Try this posting:

https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=1308908&postcount=1

Here I attempt to derive QM from nothing but classical logic alone starting from the premise that all facts must be consistent with each other. I've already discussed this with those at sci.physics.foundations, and nobody seemed to be able to find any objection with it. Maybe I'll get more relevant conversation here at PF.

You've already posted this earlier on this thread. I doubt anyone browsing this thread is too interested in reading a long (and unpublished) discussion about a new theory of QM. To avoid looking like a crank, start your own thread and see if you can find any takers.
 
  • #35
christianjb said:
You've already posted this earlier on this thread. I doubt anyone browsing this thread is too interested in reading a long (and unpublished) discussion about a new theory of QM. To avoid looking like a crank, start your own thread and see if you can find any takers.

I tried posting details here in QP at one time in a separate thread and got shut down precisely because it's not on the arXive yet. If I post on IR, that almost guarantees no audience. But I'm tired of hearing people complain that QM is not logical, when I clearly have a possible answer to that. So I see no harm in posting a link for those who are interested.

I'm not sure I could get this posted on the arXive anyway since I'm not affiliated with any university, nor do I have a PhD in physics. I have to doubt that any PhD could have derived this theory because it is an implication of consistency and not an equality. I had to start with a premise that QM does not imply. Instead consistency implies QM and not the other way around. Do you believe that's a fair premise to start with?

If it is possible to publish on the arXive, I would certainly want some comment from those more skilled in the art before posting there. And this is the next best thing to the arXive that I know of. It is precisely because I don't what to appear as a "crank" that I'm asking people here to look at it. I would think that if it is you intent to save me from embarrassment, that you would take a look at it and find the obvious flaw. Come on! It should only be a 10 minute read for someone with your skills. None of the experts on sci.physics.foundations has shot it down yet. Who knows, maybe you're wiser than they are.

We're talking about the article at:

https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=1308908&postcount=1
 
  • #36
Mike2 said:
I tried posting details here in QP at one time in a separate thread and got shut down precisely because it's not on the arXive yet. If I post on IR, that almost guarantees no audience. But I'm tired of hearing people complain that QM is not logical, when I clearly have a possible answer to that. So I see no harm in posting a link for those who are interested.

I'm not sure I could get this posted on the arXive anyway since I'm not affiliated with any university, nor do I have a PhD in physics. I have to doubt that any PhD could have derived this theory because it is an implication of consistency and not an equality. I had to start with a premise that QM does not imply. Instead consistency implies QM and not the other way around. Do you believe that's a fair premise to start with?

If it is possible to publish on the arXive, I would certainly want some comment from those more skilled in the art before posting there. And this is the next best thing to the arXive that I know of. It is precisely because I don't what to appear as a "crank" that I'm asking people here to look at it. I would think that if it is you intent to save me from embarrassment, that you would take a look at it and find the obvious flaw. Come on! It should only be a 10 minute read for someone with your skills. None of the experts on sci.physics.foundations has shot it down yet. Who knows, maybe you're wiser than they are.

We're talking about the article at:

https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=1308908&postcount=1

I had a quick look- and I estimate your probability of being a crank at >95%.

1) Only scientist mentioned is Feynman. (Though + points for spelling Feynman with the right number of n's.)

2) No references.

3) Attempt at TOE.

4) This theory doesn't predict anything we don't already know, or am I missing something? Does it make any predictions of anything?

5) Your woefully inept attempt at flattery (see above).

6) No university affiliation. No PhD in physics. Hey, who said life was fair?

On the plus side:

1) I don't understand anything you have written, so you might be the next Einstein for all I know.

2) You worked out how to use latex, which requires some brains.

3) Your mathematics is not obviously wrong, i.e.- your equations look like actual equations that you might see in a paper.

4) I can't find fault with it- which doesn't mean much given point 1) above.
 
  • #37
If it's independent research, then it doesn't really belong in the main forums, and certainly not in someone else's thread.

Your submission has already been placed in the IR queue -- if and when it has been approved, it will be available there for discussion.
 
  • #38
Demystifier said:
The only problem is that, according to QM, classical systems do not exist. :-p

Well, that's a sloganesque view on things - although I see what you want to say. Now, as far as Bohmian mechanics goes, it is IMO a DIFFERENT theory from quantum theory, although empirically equivalent, though conceptually and formally totally different. So, the question "How many people actually understand QM ?" doesn't apply to Bohmian mechanics here. If one understands Bohmian mechanics, that wouldn't mean that one has progressed in one's understanding of quantum mechanics (one would probably simply dismiss it as a conceptually erroneous framework).

So, I will limit myself to quantum mechanics proper. As people pointed out, the formal machinery of quantum mechanics is, although somewhat sophisticated, quite understandable ; one can even devellop quite some intuition for it. This is probably sufficient to say that one "understands" quantum theory: one has a certain intuition for the behaviour of the formal solutions, one has a feeling for what part is physically relevant, and what part can be neglected etc... With sufficient practice, this is very similar to the intuition one can have concerning, say, classical electromagnetism.

Concerning the conceptual understanding, things are less clear, but it is not sure that it is quantum theory that is giving difficulties, or our pre-conceived ideas of what nature *should* look like!
I find personally, relativity (with its static block-spacetime) just as intuitively and conceptually difficult as quantum theory: both formalisms do not correspond to what we intuitively expect nature to be like ; and especially, indicate that there is a difference between what we subjectively experience, and what nature "really is like". Once we've realized that there is a non-evident link between the natural picture presented by a formalism, and our intuitive understanding of what we take as an ontological hypothesis, it is not sure that the meaning of "understanding" is relevant on this level, as it is more a matter of philosophy than of physics proper.
 
  • #39
reilly said:
QM is strange because Nature is strange. Most of us do very nicely without axioms or postulates and so forth, if we know the physics. If you know QM axioms, but not the physics, then you have no chance to understand QM.

You have no idea what you are talking about. You can’t know QM or Physics axioms (postulates) if you do not know and understand the physics.

reilly said:
Measurement: Are you so sure that the classical measuring process can be fully explained? It cannot.

You consistently repeat that and similar statements in your posts. If so, I do not understand why you choose scientific research to be your profession during last 40 years and what you did during this 40 years.

You confuse the physics with the religion (I am aware that the religion have much deeper historical ruts than the empirical science). I may reconcile your faith with the physics. God worked hard 5 days to define laws of Nature. Then He invented the man and the woman. What was the purpose? He needed something that will be able to appreciate his work, to understand it and to invent the wheel and GPS as a consequence of his/her knowledge and understanding. By the way, it is impossible to construct and operate GPS without math. of SR.

reilly said:
You cannot predict(for the most part) any measurement of anything; you might win occasionally, but your measurements in total will have a nonzero variance. QED

On Russian we say: bred sivoy kobili (“even not wrong”).

There is no way that the consistent and adequate theory of measurements will not be formulated soon.

Regards, Dany.
 
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  • #40
Anonym (Dany),

There's no need for writing things like

'You have no idea what you're talking about.'

It just causes resentment and bad feelings. Also- your post isn't adding anything useful (that I can see) to the thread.
 
  • #41
jimmysnyder said:
The OP wasn't really interested in knowing how many people understand the physics, they were asking how many can understand the math. I'm pretty sure they meant the math in an introductory text. When Feynman said no one understands QM, he didn't mean to imply that the authors couldn't do the math in their own books. In my opinion, anyone who is not mentally handicapped can understand an introductory QM text like Shankar's by the simple act of applying themselves to the task. However, lack of interest will prevent most people from commiting themselves for the amount of time it would take.

My POV is identical to that.

christianjb said:
There's no need for writing things like
'You have no idea what you're talking about.'
It just causes resentment and bad feelings. Also- your post isn't adding anything useful (that I can see) to the thread.

Provided that Jimmysnyder and mine interpretation is correct, it intended to help OP to be confident that the effort will be fruitful. To study physics is not picnic, it is spit blood.

Your statements like “There is no collapse of the wavefunction! Ever!” only amuse me since you don’t know that they are in contradiction with A.Einstein, E. Schrödinger, W. Heisenberg, P.A.M. Dirac, J. von Neumann, etc. attitude. I exclude the possibility that you consider yourself understand physics better then them.

However, Reilly is completely different story. Reilly has deep and extensive knowledge of CED, QED, Classical and Quantum Optics. In addition, he knows the history of physics. His POV is the expression of ideology or philosophy: agnosticism. I have nothing against that, but 1) not here in PF in front of inexperienced beginners; 2) without falsifications, since it is in contradiction with the experimental evidence provided by 350 years development of physics.

Regards, Dany.
 
  • #42
reilly,

*1* Too bad, I strongly believe that an intro to QM must, repeat must, deal with the phenomena that drove the development of the subject.

Well, don't worry too much.
The professor was really first class and before introducing the postulates he gave us a background to understand them mathematically as well as physically. And of course, most of the lectures thereafter gave a more complete view of the physics. I don't like the postulates very much. But I think they really do catch somehow the physics: every lab experiment can finally be analysed in the terms of the postulates.

I probably don't like them because they go too far in the interpretation of QM and lead to irrealistic questions and useless debates. This is related to the well known question "can the SE represent the measurement process". As a huge majority of people, I am convinced the SE can do this job. Presenting things otherwise with the postulates makes no practical problem, but it is not very satisfactory and not totally convincing.

Michel
 
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  • #43
vanesch said:
Well, that's a sloganesque view on things - although I see what you want to say. Now, as far as Bohmian mechanics goes, it is IMO a DIFFERENT theory from quantum theory, although empirically equivalent, though conceptually and formally totally different. So, the question "How many people actually understand QM ?" doesn't apply to Bohmian mechanics here. If one understands Bohmian mechanics, that wouldn't mean that one has progressed in one's understanding of quantum mechanics (one would probably simply dismiss it as a conceptually erroneous framework).
The above was your response to my assertion that, according to QM, classical systems do not exist. I cannot understand why do you think that such an assertion necessarily implies Bohmian mechanics? Are you saying that, in all other interpretations of QM, classical systems do exist? What about MWI? In my opinion, the existence of classical systems is assumed ONLY in the Copenhagen interpretation. ALL other interpretations attempt to interpret QM without introducing such a vague assumption.
 
  • #44
Demystifier said:
The above was your response to my assertion that, according to QM, classical systems do not exist. I cannot understand why do you think that such an assertion necessarily implies Bohmian mechanics? Are you saying that, in all other interpretations of QM, classical systems do exist? What about MWI? In my opinion, the existence of classical systems is assumed ONLY in the Copenhagen interpretation. ALL other interpretations attempt to interpret QM without introducing such a vague assumption.

You are right, I went too fast and was presuming that your statement was a critique on quantum theory and an endorsement of Bohmian mechanics (which has a Newtonian ontology as part of its metaphysical structure).

I am with you that quantum theory as it is known today implies somehow that classical systems "do not exist" although -as I said - that's a bit sloganesque.

First of all, one could (as do the Copenhagen adherents) say, that not everything is describable by quantum mechanics. This could be because there is a dichotomy in nature (some things obey quantum mechanics, others obey classical mechanics), or because quantum theory is an approximate theory, which only works well for certain systems, and works worse and worse for others. In other words, we start from the premise that quantum theory is not a universal theory, and that its principles and formalism are approximative.
Quantum theory (as a kind of approximate formalism) can hence only make sense when "bathed" within classical (or other) theories, and clearly, this classical theory isn't then a part of quantum theory. This implies somehow that we don't know the correct theory, unless we accept a dichotomy in nature (which was, if I understand well, Bohr's viewpoint).

One could also say that nature is classical, or contains at least a classical (Newtonian) metaphysics, and quantum theory is just a (correct) statistical description of that Newtonian world. This is Bohmian mechanics. It is the only view I'm aware off in which "quantum theory" can be universal, and in which there is an objective, unique classical world included. The problem (in as far as this is a problem) is that one needs to have an ether-view on relativity (and not a spacetime view).

Or one could take the current unitary quantum formalism as a suggestion for an ontological metaphysical picture (this is the MWI viewpoint, in the broad sense). Now, in order for this to make sense, there needs to be a difference between the metaphysical ontology, and the subjectively experienced "reality". The last one is, by postulate, "classical". So in as much as this last subjectively experienced "reality" is "real", there is some form of classical reality even in MWI, but it doesn't appear in the formalism per se. So in this view, quantum theory can be universal, and in as much as there are postulated to be observers that observe classical worlds, the formalism can tell you what they will see. But you need to bring in that part of "classicity" by hand, as a purely subjective phenomenon. That doesn't mean that the part of classicity is not *suggested* by the quantum formalism. Indeed, decoherence, and the splitting of the wavefunction in "independent" parts which correspond to classical systems is highly suggestive. But saying that a subjective observation will correspond to JUST ONE of them is a statement that must be brought in by hand. I suppose that this is what you wanted to point out with your remark that classical systems do not exist in QM: the quantum state doesn't evolve naturally to a single classically-looking state.
 
  • #45
vanesch said:
Or one could take the current unitary quantum formalism as a suggestion for an ontological metaphysical picture (this is the MWI viewpoint, in the broad sense). Now, in order for this to make sense, there needs to be a difference between the metaphysical ontology, and the subjectively experienced "reality". The last one is, by postulate, "classical". So in as much as this last subjectively experienced "reality" is "real", there is some form of classical reality even in MWI, but it doesn't appear in the formalism per se. So in this view, quantum theory can be universal, and in as much as there are postulated to be observers that observe classical worlds, the formalism can tell you what they will see. But you need to bring in that part of "classicity" by hand, as a purely subjective phenomenon.
So, would you agree with the following?
To make the DYNAMICAL equations of QM (which do not include the wave-function collapse) universally valid, both MWI and Bohmian mechanics (BM) introduce something ADDITIONAL that is not already present in the basic formalism of QM. Moreover, in both cases it is something ontologically CLASSICAL. In the case of BM, these are kinematically classical particle trajectories, while in MWI these are classically real subjective experiences. The main difference between MWI and BM is that the additional thing in BM is objective and formal, while in MWI the additional thing is subjective and not formal. In this sense, BM seems to be more in accordance with the usual practice in theoretical physics, which, of course, is by no means a proof that it is more likely to be correct. (Theoretical physicists may be wrong with their common belief that nature must be completely mathematical.)
 
  • #46
lalbatros said:
For myself, the strange questions came right from the beginning.Why would the SE not be able to describe the measurement process? Well, still I would like to present QM in another way and show why and how the measurement postulate in useless.

lalbatros said:
This is related to the well known question "can the SE represent the measurement process". As a huge majority of people, I am convinced the SE can do this job.

I will integrate your statements here with what was discussed in Is the QM postulate for measurements misleading?:

lalbatros said:
I don't want to convince, but to learn and to test my opinion.

So, do it!

lalbatros said:
That the SE governs quantum systems is not an interpretation.The probability amplitude is not either, it is the root definition in QM.

Hurkyl said:
That last sentence is an interpretation.
But this one's not a matter of interpretation; it's a matter of the mathematics. Time evolution in QM is unitary. Wavefunction collapse is not unitary. Therefore, a wavefunction collapse cannot occur through ordinary time evolution.

You not only missed the right page, you don’t want to learn and to test your opinion.

The probability treatment of the single particle state (wave packet) is the M.Born statistical interpretation by definition (for a huge majority of people).

Amazingly, 95% of your statements are correct but in crucial point you miss again the right page:

Each statement in physics should be supported by the experiment. During 80 years it was not suggested and it was not performed the experimental verification of that “root definition in QM”. Today we have ability to do that. My unambiguous prediction of the result is that the M.Born statistical interpretation is wrong.

The M.Born statistical interpretation is the corner-stone of all interpretations. However, I have no doubt that it will remain in the QM dictionary for ever.

Regards, Dany.
 
  • #47
Demystifier said:
So, would you agree with the following?
To make the DYNAMICAL equations of QM (which do not include the wave-function collapse) universally valid, both MWI and Bohmian mechanics (BM) introduce something ADDITIONAL that is not already present in the basic formalism of QM. Moreover, in both cases it is something ontologically CLASSICAL. In the case of BM, these are kinematically classical particle trajectories, while in MWI these are classically real subjective experiences. The main difference between MWI and BM is that the additional thing in BM is objective and formal, while in MWI the additional thing is subjective and not formal. In this sense, BM seems to be more in accordance with the usual practice in theoretical physics, which, of course, is by no means a proof that it is more likely to be correct. (Theoretical physicists may be wrong with their common belief that nature must be completely mathematical.)

Essentially, yes, I agree with what you write. I would, however, like to make two observations. The first one is, that even a classical formal theory, such as Bohmian mechanics, or Newtonian mechanics, is still not giving any explanation of any subjective phenomena. That is, a theory/metaphysics/worldview/philosophy that wants to be universal, must account for the fact that certain parts of the formal ontology must be connected to what I'd call "the subjective experience". It is the mind/brain problem in a way, or the hard problem of consciousness in philosophy ; and also, related to this, the philosophical problem of heaceity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haecceity although it is not a very good article).

I mean by the above that, given a Newtonian (or Newtonian-like theory, such as Bohmian mechanics), you still cannot deduce what *I* will experience subjectively, unless you explicitly define that *I* corresponds to a certain body, which is a subset (which one ?) of all the particles in your theory. You have to state explicitly, and outside of your formal theory, that *I* will correspond to this set of (brain) particles, and that these configurations will correspond to these sensations.
However, it is true that in Newtonian-like theories, this step seems so intuitively clear that one doesn't even think about it. Nevertheless, it is part of any "theory of observation", even in Newtonian(-like) theories.

Now, in MWI, this step is also present, but becomes much less intuitively clear (and that's why many people don't like it, simply because they think that the problem *appears* in MWI, although it was also present in Newtonian(-like) theories, but could be overlooked). Here, the designation of what part of the "physical ontology" is going to correspond to the "I-experience" is a non-trivial and essential element in the "observational link" between formalism and perception. But it is based upon the same principle as in Newtonian-like theories: some part of the formalism must be postulated (outside of the theory itself) as to correspond to subjective experience. Now, the difference with Newtonian-like theories is that the part that corresponds to the "Ich-Erlebniss" is not a "material" part (a certain subset of particles), but rather a "state" part. This is counter-intuitive. We seem to be able to accept without problem that our "body" (= the part of the postulated ontology that generates our subjective perceptions) is a particular *material* part of the universe, but we seem to have intuitive difficulties accepting that it is a "state" part. Now, what is so terribly disturbing in MWI is that this definition of the "Ich-Erlebniss" - which is usually relegated to obscure philosophical discussions without any interest for practical people such as physicists - is now a crucial part of the entire phenomenon of observation. Because of its intuitively clear character in Newtonian-like theories, one can pretend to neglect this philosophical aspect, while one is pushed with one's nose into it when looking at something like MWI.

In other words, there is a philosophical problem hiding in *any* interpretation of a physical theory, which must ultimately link a formalism to actual (and hence subjective) perceptions, and which we could call the observational postulate. This problem is, deep down, just as present in a Newtonian-like theory as in MWI or relativity or whatever formal/mathematical physical theory. Only, we can "use our intuition" in these theories, and pretend somehow that the problem doesn't exist there.

As such, what is "attached" as a vague, subjective and informal element (namely, the observer-states which are subjectively perceived) in MWI is exactly that same philosophical problem, but now explicitly put forward, given that it is not intuitive anymore.

The second observation I would like to make is that the "gain" in formality in Bohmian mechanics (which I think is only apparent, because one substitutes the explicitly subjective part of MWI by a non-spoken part as in all Newtonian-like theories) is done away with by its non-compatibility with a spacetime manifold formulation. I agree that this is an observation of another order, as the spacetime manifold formulation of relativity could also be totally misguided, once we are doing all this.
 
  • #48
Vanesch, given what you said above, would you say that MWI is more ambitious than BM, in the sense that MWI attempts to say also something about the origin of subjective experiences, while BM does not even attempt to say something about that (certainly deep, fundamental, and difficult) problem?
By being more ambitious, would you also say that MWI is more speculative as well? BM is only a modification of classical mechanics (in this sense it is not so speculative), while MWI is attempted to be much more than this.

Another question:
If there was an INDEPENDENT (i.e., not based on the assumption of the Bohmian interpretation) theoretical or experimental evidence that the usual spacetime interpretation of relativity is not really correct at a more fundamental level, would BM become more acceptable to you than it is now? (If yes, I can give you links to some of my papers that present some theoretical arguments in that direction.)
 
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  • #49
Anonym said:
[/B]:


Each statement in physics should be supported by the experiment. During 80 years it was not suggested and it was not performed the experimental verification of that “root definition in QM”. Today we have ability to do that. My unambiguous prediction of the result is that the M.Born statistical interpretation is wrong.

The M.Born statistical interpretation is the corner-stone of all interpretations. However, I have no doubt that it will remain in the QM dictionary for ever.

Regards, Dany.



How would you show that Born is not right?

What to do if Born is wrong?

Regards,
Reilly Atkinson
 
  • #50
Demystifier said:
Vanesch, given what you said above, would you say that MWI is more ambitious than BM, in the sense that MWI attempts to say also something about the origin of subjective experiences, while BM does not even attempt to say something about that (certainly deep, fundamental, and difficult) problem?

Not really. BM takes on the hypothetical "solution" to that problem by copying the intuitive notion we have about it ; in other words, it *ignores* the issue, but it can get away with it, based upon the intuitive notion we have which fills in the gap.

As MWI needs to propose a non-intuitive "solution" to the problem at hand, it is obliged to state it explicitly. So MWI doesn't attempt to say MORE than BM, but is obliged to state it explicitly, while BM can "leave it to the philosophers", given that our intuitive notion of the problem is good enough.

But I don't see that as a kind of objection. It is not because, say, natural numbers have a (slightly) more intuitive notion to them than integers, with those "counter-intuitive" negative values, that the foundations of integer arithmetic (using sets and stuff like that) is to be seen as "more ambitious and hence more speculative" than the arithmetic of natural numbers, if you see what I mean (maybe a poor example, but I hope you get the gist of it).

No, MWI is not "a theory attempting to explain subjective experiences" or anything of the kind. It just contains a less intuitively evident relationship between "subjective experience" and "ontology" than we are used to, and hence has to state things slightly more explicit, than what we are used to in classical theories. It is just the "explicitness" of the subjective/objective link which is a bit stronger in MWI than in classical theories.


By being more ambitious, would you also say that MWI is more speculative as well? BM is only a modification of classical mechanics (in this sense it is not so speculative)

It is not such an innocent "modification of classical mechanics" as the whole wavefunction ontology (living, remember, in Hilbert space, not in real space) needs to be added onto it. It's not just "changing the force laws" if you see what I mean.

Another question:
If there was an INDEPENDENT (i.e., not based on the assumption of the Bohmian interpretation) theoretical or experimental evidence that the usual spacetime interpretation of relativity is not really correct at a more fundamental level, would BM become more acceptable to you than it is now? (If yes, I can give you links to some of my papers that present some theoretical arguments in that direction.)

If there is another view, that has just as much formal "predictive power" than the usual "spacetime manifold" view of relativity, yes, I guess so. Are you hinting at Ashtekar variables (I am only vaguely aware of what it is about, honestly) ?
 
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