How to derive the curl of E equation in the frame of the conductor?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around deriving the equation for the curl of the electric field (E') in the frame of a conductor, particularly in the context of the moving magnet and conductor problem. Participants explore the mathematical relationships involved, including the application of vector calculus and the chain rule.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant references a Wikipedia article stating that the curl of E' is equal to the negative dot product of the conductor's velocity and the gradient of the magnetic field.
  • Another participant explains the derivation using the chain rule, suggesting that the time derivative of the magnetic field can be expressed as the dot product of the gradient of B and the velocity.
  • Concerns are raised about the notation used, with one participant questioning the equivalence of expressions involving the gradient and the velocity, specifically whether it should be a dot product or a composition.
  • Further clarification is sought on how the expression (v°∇)B is derived from ∇B(x') ° v, with emphasis on the correct interpretation of the operators involved.
  • Participants express confusion over the notation, particularly regarding the use of dot versus composition in vector calculus.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the correct mathematical notation and interpretation of the expressions involved in the derivation. There is no consensus on the correct form of the equations or the relationships between the variables.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight potential misunderstandings related to vector calculus notation and the application of the chain rule, indicating that clarity on these points is necessary for accurate derivation.

adelmakram
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According to wikipedia, "The moving magnet and conductor problem", I stopped at the equation shown in the attachment.
It said that the curl of the E` ( electric field in the frame of the conductor) is equal to minus of the dot product of the velocity of the conductor and the del multiplied by the magnetic field.

How to derive this formula?
 

Attachments

  • Snap 2014-06-13 at 19.17.32.png
    Snap 2014-06-13 at 19.17.32.png
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UltrafastPED said:
The first part is follows from the chain rule: substituting B(x'+vt) for B':

∂B'/∂t = ∂B(x'+vt)/∂t = ∇B(x') ° ∂vt/∂t = ∇B(x') ° v.

But this can also be expressed as (v°∇)B.

But i have 3 concerns:
1) The above equation should equal to ∇B(x') ∂vt/∂t not to the composite ∇B(x') ° ∂vt/∂t
2) How (v°∇)B is driven from ∇B(x') ° v?
3) In wikipedia, it is a dot product (v.∇) B not a composite function (v°∇)B
 
Last edited:
∂B`(x`)/∂t = ∂B(x`+vt)/∂t

∂B/∂t= (∂B/∂x).(∂x/∂t) given that x=x`+vt

but ∂x/∂t= v

so ∂B/∂t= (∂B/∂x). v
 
Yeah, a dot not a composition. Couldn't find the dot in the menu. Gotta learn LaTex someday I keep saying to myself!
 
UltrafastPED said:
Yeah, a dot not a composition. Couldn't find the dot in the menu. Gotta learn LaTex someday I keep saying to myself!

Fine, so again how (v.∇) B is reached? it should be v (∇.B). In other words, the only operator that is acting on B should be ∇ not (v.∇).
 

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