If slaughterhouses had glass walls, everyone would be a vegetarian.

[jobyts]

I have to admit, I struggle with this issue.

In the same boat. Anthropomorphism vs. taste. And usually the taste instinct wins.

 

[WiFO215]

Why? If it's killing for food and not just some form of entertainment, why would you have any more emotion about one than the other? It's just something you do because you have to do it. I don't know where society has come up with this silly idea that we are supposed to feel guilty about our food source. It's rather counter-productive to survival if we get emotionally attached to our dinner. It may be anthropomorphic, but I really doubt that lions or coyotes get all worked up inside about having to kill their own dinner either.

That's why you cry when you cut an onion!

 

[turbo]

That's why you cry when you cut an onion!

 

[Mk]

For another, a non-insignificant segment of the population hunts, dresses and butchers their own meat.

Congratulations, you have a point of view most young urban/suburban Americans have difficulty imagining.

Did you grow up in the 18th century or what?

Jeez, that nearly insulted me! Watch out with that thing.

Only for people who have been coddled all their lives, and who think hamburg comes in plastic trays with plastic wrap. Shooting a deer is the anticlimax of the hunt, but I feel much better providing a humane death to a wild creature to provide meat for my family than buying beef from cattle who have been confined and fattened in feed-lots.

Man, you said it well. The current brand of emotional vegetarianisms is only possible due to the level of urbanization we have in some areas. People who have lived in cities for their entire lives and feel like they want to be "close to the environment," or want to live "in a green way" do not have any concept of what being "close to the environment" actually means. They rarely walk off concrete or asphalt and when they leave the city, to go see Nature they are on an adventure.

 

[negitron]

I think what he meant was clear, that biological evolution has not freed humans from the need to eat meat.

Indeed. It hasn't had time for that sort of change in the few thousand years since humans became agricultural. In any case, to suggest that we have evolved "beyond" something suggests that evolution has a purpose, a direction or perhaps that it pursues a course from less moral to more moral behavior. Neither of these is true in any sense--and the latter is particularly ridiculous. There is no natural pressure for humans to change from an omnivorous diet which includes meat to a largely vegetarian one. Quite the opposite, in fact. Meat is much easier to digest, which is why carnivores have shorter digestive tracts than herbivores; humans fall right in the middle with a gut length less than similarly-sized herbivores but longer than an obligate carnivore's (yet another data point in favor of the belief that humans are naturally omnivorous, as are most other primates). As a nutrition source, meat packs more energy per unit mass than vegetation; as a result, carnivores tend to be overall faster and more active than their herbivorous counterparts. Human civiliartion itself is likely a direct result of that, among other factors.

 

[turbo]

I think what he meant was clear, that biological evolution has not freed humans from the need to eat meat.

That should be clear. Adults can often do well on a diet with no animal protein for extended times, but it would be reckless to force kids to forgo animal protein without providing supplements - Vitamin B12 at a minimum. We evolved as omnivores, and without supplements, it can be difficult or impossible to get some nutrients on a vegetarian diet.

Even worse, some vegetarians load their diets with tofu-based products. Whole foods and minimally-processed foods should be a part of everybody's diet - heavily-processed foods are generally not as healthy. I have a neighbor who is a vegetarian, though his wife, daughter, and grandchildren all are enthusiastic meat-eaters. He will gladly smoke racks of ribs and grills steaks for them, but he cooks tofu-burgers, soy-dogs, etc, for himself. Yuck! Why eat pretend-food? He is a fantastic BBQ cook, but he got onto this vegetarian kick years back. I supply him with my hot chili sauces so he can load his ersatz meats with them and kill the flavor. BTW, he will shoot a wood-chuck or a red squirrel in a heartbeat, so it's not about caring for the critters.

 

[jobyts]

Meat is much easier to digest, which is why carnivores have shorter digestive tracts than herbivores;

I thought it was the opposite.

 

[negitron]

Nope. Plants have tough cell walls which need to be broken down; this require either particular gut flora suited to the task or specialized enzymes. Cooking does help, though, so we have an advantage there, too.

 

[Monique]

I think what he meant was clear, that biological evolution has not freed humans from the need to eat meat.

I never talked about biological evolution. Our society today in Western countries is very different and has evolved significantly from when we were hunter-gatherers. As a hunter-gatherer the options for food were very limited. If you live in an industrialized country and have an income, you have access to nutritional foods and by the cooking process the nutrients can be absorbed. In addition we are educated in what is needed for a healthy diet.

Here is the position of the American Dietetic Association: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/...el.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum"

It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence, and for athletes. A vegetarian diet is defined as one that does not include meat (including fowl) or seafood, or products containing those foods. This article reviews the current data related to key nutrients for vegetarians including protein, n-3 fatty acids, iron, zinc, iodine, calcium, and vitamins D and B-12. A vegetarian diet can meet current recommendations for all of these nutrients.[/color] In some cases, supplements or fortified foods can provide useful amounts of important nutrients. An evidence- based review showed that vegetarian diets can be nutritionally adequate in pregnancy and result in positive maternal and infant health outcomes. The results of an evidence-based review showed that a vegetarian diet is associated with a lower risk of death from ischemic heart disease. Vegetarians also appear to have lower low-density lipoprotein cholesterol levels, lower blood pressure, and lower rates of hypertension and type 2 diabetes than nonvegetarians. Furthermore, vegetarians tend to have a lower body mass index and lower overall cancer rates. Features of a vegetarian diet that may reduce risk of chronic disease include lower intakes of saturated fat and cholesterol and higher intakes of fruits, vegetables, whole grains, nuts, soy products, fiber, and phytochemicals. The variability of dietary practices among vegetarians makes individual assessment of dietary adequacy essential. In addition to assessing dietary adequacy, food and nutrition professionals can also play key roles in educating vegetarians about sources of specific nutrients, food purchase and preparation, and dietary modifications to meet their needs.

 

[z0rn dawg]

No, cats are obligate carnivores.

My cat eats grass for nutritional value (that's what the vet says anyway).

I thought it was the opposite.

Breaking down fruits/vegetables is much harder than breaking down meat. It takes bacteria much longer.

Humans are meant to eat meat. The comment about evolution does show ignorance and to me it suggests that the poster thinks that we have evolved since beginning farming. We still need vitamins, minerals, etc. from meat. Whether you get them from meat or pills/supplements doesn't matter; you still need them. And the natural way is through meat.

 

[Monique]

Only for people who have been coddled all their lives, and who think hamburg comes in plastic trays with plastic wrap. Shooting a deer is the anticlimax of the hunt, but I feel much better providing a humane death to a wild creature to provide meat for my family than buying beef from cattle who have been confined and fattened in feed-lots.

I agree, I would have less problems with going to a farmer and buying meat there than buying meat in a supermarket and not knowing what the source is.

 

[turbo]

I agree, I would have less problems with going to a farmer and buying meat there than buying meat in a supermarket and not knowing what the source is.

There is a farmer a few miles from here who specializes in Black Angus beef-cattle. His cattle are pastured, not confined, and the pastures contain streams, stock-ponds with good flow in and out, nice green grass, and lots of shade trees so the critters can get out of direct sun when it's hot out. He also raises lots of free-range chickens most years. The chickens are great at insect-control, and he and his wife are working to get their family farm accredited for certification as an organic farm.

I don't mind paying a reasonable premium for meat from that farm - I know the animals have been well-treated and have had as much freedom of movement and freedom of choice in food, water, etc, that they can reasonably have. It's not like the cattle are free to come and go, like wild white-tail deer, but then again, they are in no danger of starvation and freezing when the winters are bad. They can shelter in barns, and get supplemental grains, etc to keep their weight up. That livestock operation is as humane and considerate as I have ever seen in recent years, though my uncle's Herefords were very well-treated 50 years ago with similar amenities. Only small farms seem to have the motivation and ability to treat their stock well and produce really high-quality meats - the big guys don't seem to care.

 

[Sorry!]

I agree, I would have less problems with going to a farmer and buying meat there than buying meat in a supermarket and not knowing what the source is.

So you would rather just go and kill a wild animal when you could just go buy meat? Not only did that wild animal have much more to live for and a free life, all of which YOU just took away from it directly but the other option involves buying something ALREADY dead.

If you feel that the way animals are treated is horrible or inhumane or whatever you think then you feel that way. Don't go and unnecessarily kill an animal to eat it though... makes no sense to me.

 

[Monique]

Yes. Like I said previously I have watched a series of programs that gives slaughter houses glass walls. I was assuming you were referring to the conditions in which some animals are brought in. The level of care shown to the animals depends on which country you're in was my point. Some countries try their hardest to make sure animals used for food are treated as humanely as possible.

Well, I don't know how they made the documentary. How did they pick the slaughterhouse and was the slaughterhouse informed prior to the taping of the documentary? I live in a country that cares about animal welfare, evident from the fact that there is a political Party for Animals part of the House of Representatives. Live animal transport is not uncommon, animal mass-industry is commercial they will do anything for a high return. E.g. it is cheaper to transport live animals to Italy than to have butchers process the meat in the Netherlands. I hope the industry will move to the production of high quality products, rather than production in the cheapest way possible (which is the current state of business).

 

[Monique]

Only small farms seem to have the motivation and ability to treat their stock well and produce really high-quality meats - the big guys don't seem to care.

I agree, that's why I said that I don't want to force people to become vegetarian: there are intermediate options such as white meat (better than red meat) and biological producers (better than industrial producers). Unfortunately the biological meat market is not really transparent to me, I would first need to investigate it before assuming that I get what they promise (unless you have personal contacts with a farm). I think the most important thing is to be educated and know where products come from.

 

[Hel]

I've been vegetarian since I was 12. It was my own personal decision, and my family still eats meat. A few weeks ago my doctor had me go through a series of blood tests to make sure I wasn't anemic and was getting enough B12, as those are some issues that vegetarians sometimes have. The blood tests came back fine: I'm not anemic and am getting enough B12.

In addition to that I've been keeping food logs for several weeks, and I come pretty close to the mark on protein. On average I consume about 1100 calories a day, so coming a little short on protein recommended for a 1600-1800 calorie diet (which is what I'm supposed to get for my weight) is expected.

It's definitely possible to be perfectly healthy on a vegetarian diet.
I don't know about vegan diets though.

Meat is a huge part of modern society though, and vegetarianism is definitely not suited for everybody. If I were allergic to say, casein, I'd eat meat, even though I don't like the taste or the texture.

I do think that people should lay off eating benthic predators though. With the pollution that's going into the water, crabs and such are eating all sorts of junk that I don't even want to think about going into humans' stomachs.

Cutting meat out of a diet isn't going to make a person healthy. I'm Seventh Day Adventist, and something that's huge is vegetarianism: Loma Linda & Worthington foods are ubiquitous. The irritating thing is that people think they're "eating healthy" by substituting meats for fake stuff that has a mile long list of in-pronounceable ingredients. Just attempting to read it invokes my gag reflex!

If you're going to be vegetarian, you're going to need to pay more attention to getting enough vitamins and protein. If you eat meat, you might want to stick to pay attention to where it's coming from and how well it's cooked. It's just a matter of personal preference and possibly health reasons.

Be health conscious... whether you eat meat or not.

 

[Kurdt]

Well, I don't know how they made the documentary. How did they pick the slaughterhouse and was the slaughterhouse informed prior to the taping of the documentary? I live in a country that cares about animal welfare, evident from the fact that there is a political Party for Animals part of the House of Representatives. Live animal transport is not uncommon, animal mass-industry is commercial they will do anything for a high return. E.g. it is cheaper to transport live animals to Italy than to have butchers process the meat in the Netherlands. I hope the industry will move to the production of high quality products, rather than production in the cheapest way possible (which is the current state of business).

For animals in Britain we have regulations on conditions for live animal transport to slaughterhouses. Conditions are such that animals have more personal space in animal transports than passengers on an economy class flight. There are also regulations on when they should be watered and fed during such trips.

 

[negitron]

My cat eats grass for nutritional value (that's what the vet says anyway).

No one knows exactly why cats occasionally eat grass. Often it appears to act more as an emetic than a nutriment. My own couch lions are indoor-only but they'll sometimes eat a bit of vegetable that falls on the floor; I suspect they do that only because they 1) see me eating it and 2) it's usually covered in butter, sauce or cheese. Obligate carnivore means they must eat meat to survive; although cats can eat veggies, they rarely will of their own accord if a source of meat is readily available. Cats cannot manufacture the amino acid taurine in their bodies; they must get it from meats which are the only natural sources of it. Vegans who attempt to force their moral code upon their feline friends (aside from deserving rather stiff punishment which preferably involves soaking in melted lard followed immediately by an introduction to a large, hungry feral cat colony) must be careful to feed them foods with taurine added.

 

[Proton Soup]

I never talked about biological evolution. Our society today in Western countries is very different and has evolved significantly from when we were hunter-gatherers. As a hunter-gatherer the options for food were very limited. If you live in an industrialized country and have an income, you have access to nutritional foods and by the cooking process the nutrients can be absorbed. In addition we are educated in what is needed for a healthy diet.

Here is the position of the American Dietetic Association: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/...el.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum"

thanks for that. ADA is now on my Quack List

 

[junglebeast]

I don't have extensive knowledge of this organization but from a summary perspective, I wouldn't be so quick to judge them as Quacks...

"The American Dietetic Association (ADA) is the United States' largest organization of food and nutrition professionals, with nearly 67,000 members. Approximately 75 % of ADA's members are registered dietitians and about 4 % are dietetic technicians, registered. The remainder of ADA's members include researchers, educators, students, clinical and community dietetics professionals, consultants and food service managers."

Requirements include the following items:

* Minimum Bachelor's degree with coursework approved by ADA's accreditation on dietitics education. This coursework included food science, nutrition, computer science, biochemistry, microbiology, chemistry, sociology, business management, and physiology.
* Completion of an accredited, supervised, and apprenticed program at a health care facility, community agency, or food service organization.
* Pass a Commission on Dietetic Registration-administered national examination.
* Maintain registration by completing continuing professional educational requirements.

Approximately 75 percent of all ADA members are RD's. An additional 4 percent of ADA membership are Dietetic Technician, Registered (DTR). About half of the ADA membership hold advanced academic degrees (Master's or Doctorate).

 

[Proton Soup]

I've been vegetarian since I was 12. It was my own personal decision, and my family still eats meat. A few weeks ago my doctor had me go through a series of blood tests to make sure I wasn't anemic and was getting enough B12, as those are some issues that vegetarians sometimes have. The blood tests came back fine: I'm not anemic and am getting enough B12.

In addition to that I've been keeping food logs for several weeks, and I come pretty close to the mark on protein. On average I consume about 1100 calories a day, so coming a little short on protein recommended for a 1600-1800 calorie diet (which is what I'm supposed to get for my weight) is expected.

It's definitely possible to be perfectly healthy on a vegetarian diet.
I don't know about vegan diets though.

Meat is a huge part of modern society though, and vegetarianism is definitely not suited for everybody. If I were allergic to say, casein, I'd eat meat, even though I don't like the taste or the texture.

I do think that people should lay off eating benthic predators though. With the pollution that's going into the water, crabs and such are eating all sorts of junk that I don't even want to think about going into humans' stomachs.

Cutting meat out of a diet isn't going to make a person healthy. I'm Seventh Day Adventist, and something that's huge is vegetarianism: Loma Linda & Worthington foods are ubiquitous. The irritating thing is that people think they're "eating healthy" by substituting meats for fake stuff that has a mile long list of in-pronounceable ingredients. Just attempting to read it invokes my gag reflex!

If you're going to be vegetarian, you're going to need to pay more attention to getting enough vitamins and protein. If you eat meat, you might want to stick to pay attention to where it's coming from and how well it's cooked. It's just a matter of personal preference and possibly health reasons.

Be health conscious... whether you eat meat or not.

oh, hai!

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10479234?dopt=Abstract

: Am J Clin Nutr. 1999 Sep;70(3 Suppl):576S-578S.
Related Articles, Links
Click here to read
Cyanocobalamin (vitamin B-12) status in Seventh-day Adventist ministers in Australia.

Hokin BD, Butler T.

Pathology Department, Sydney Adventist Hospital and Adventist Health Department, Wahroonga, Australia. bevan@sah.org.au

As part of the Adventist Ministers' Health Study, a series of cross-sectional surveys conducted in 1992, 1994, and 1997, the serum vitamin B-12 status of 340 Australian Seventh-day Adventist ministers was assessed in 1997. The ministers in the study participated voluntarily. Of this group, 245 were either lactoovovegetarians or vegans who were not taking vitamin B-12 supplements. Their mean vitamin B-12 concentration was 199 pmol/L (range: 58-538 pmol/L), 53% of whom had values below the reference range for the method used (171-850 pmol/L) and 73% of whom had values <221 pmol/L, the lower limit recommended by Herbert. Dual-isotope Schillings test results in 36 lactoovovegetarians with abnormally low vitamin B-12 concentrations indicated that dietary deficiency was the cause in 70% of cases. Data from the dietary questionnaires supported dietary deficiency as the cause of low serum vitamin B-12 in this population of lactoovovegetarians and vegans, 56 (23%) of whom consumed sufficient servings of vitamin B-12-containing foods to obtain the minimum daily maintenance allowance of the vitamin (1 microg).

PMID: 10479234 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

 

[Proton Soup]

I don't have extensive knowledge of this organization but from a summary perspective, I wouldn't be so quick to judge them as Quacks...

blah, blah, blah...

veganism puts people right on the edge of inadequacy. maybe for wealthy, highly-educated westerners past child-bearing age, it is OK. but if they would just do a little research, instead of bowing to religious dogma of us being highly "evolved" spiritual creatures now, they would know better. this is a pet peeve, and i am prepared for a pubmed battle if need be. veganism is *&$#ing dangerous.

 

[Sorry!]

veganism puts people right on the edge of inadequacy. maybe for wealthy, highly-educated westerners past child-bearing age, it is OK. but if they would just do a little research, instead of bowing to religious dogma of us being highly "evolved" spiritual creatures now, they would know better. this is a pet peeve, and i am prepared for a pubmed battle if need be. veganism is *&$#ing dangerous.

I dont' think being a vegan is dangerous. It has its risks if you're not properly informed about what dietary needs a human body has but I would assume that most people who are vegan know what the needs are and meet them.

 

[Proton Soup]

I dont' think being a vegan is dangerous. It has its risks if you're not properly informed about what dietary needs a human body has but I would assume that most people who are vegan know what the needs are and meet them.

sure, you would think so. and maybe sometimes they even try to do the right thing and still fail. but consider how many people shop at walmart and how well it represents a cross-section of society before going out and making general recommendations that veganism is a good thing to advocate.


http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/289/8/979

Neurologic Impairment in Children Associated With Maternal Dietary Deficiency of Cobalamin—Georgia, 2001

JAMA. 2003;289:979-980.

MMWR. 2003;52:61-64

2 tables omitted

During 2001, neurologic impairment resulting from cobalamin (vitamin B12) deficiency was diagnosed in two children in Georgia. The children were breastfed by mothers who followed vegetarian diets.* This report summarizes the two cases and provides guidance for health-care providers on identifying and preventing cobalamin deficiency among breastfed infants of vegetarian mothers.


Case 1

During August 2001, a girl aged 15 months was hospitalized for lethargy and failure to thrive. She was born after a full-term pregnancy complicated by prolonged nausea and vomiting. She was breastfed for 8 months, but the extent (exclusivity) of breast milk consumed relative to other food was unknown. Her mother reported following a vegan diet during the preceding 7 years and took nutritional and vitamin supplements. The cobalamin content of the supplements was unknown. When the child was aged approximately 8 months, organic whole-grain cereals and fruit shakes were introduced, but she had a poor appetite and vomited regularly. Her parents became concerned about her growth and development, and she was evaluated by a pediatrician at age 15 months. The pediatrician diagnosed failure to thrive, developmental delay, and severe macrocytic anemia. The child was hospitalized, and cobalamin deficiency was diagnosed (marked elevation [not quantified] of urine methylmalonic acid; serum B12:100 pg/mL [normal range: 210-911 pg/mL]).

The child received supplementary food by mouth and by nasogastric tube. She also received 2 mg of cyanocobalamin and 3 mg of hydroxocobalamin intramuscularly (IM) over 3 days. Three days later, she had partial complex seizures, which stopped without anticonvulsants. A brain MRI indicated global cerebral atrophy. The mother was treated with 1 mg of cobalamin IM.

At age 16 months, the child was seen in a genetics clinic to eliminate possible genetic causes of her neurologic deficiency. At age 28 months, her developmental skills ranged from 9 months for fine motor skills to 18 months for gross motor skills. Her expressive language was at 10 months, and her receptive language was at 12 months. At age 32 months, she had made developmental progress but continued to have developmental delays, especially in speech and language. She was prescribed daily sublingual cobalamin supplements.
...

 

[junglebeast]

veganism puts people right on the edge of inadequacy. maybe for wealthy, highly-educated westerners past child-bearing age, it is OK. but if they would just do a little research, instead of bowing to religious dogma of us being highly "evolved" spiritual creatures now, they would know better. this is a pet peeve, and i am prepared for a pubmed battle if need be. veganism is *&$#ing dangerous.

I would expect it to be very unhealthy to cut out meat products. However, I also have two cousins which are vegans and have always seemed quite healthy their whole lives. This isn't my field -- is it yours? How can you rationally jump to criticize what appears to be the largest, most expert society of people on this subject so quickly?

 

[Proton Soup]

I would expect it to be very unhealthy to cut out meat products. However, I also have two cousins which are vegans and have always seemed quite healthy their whole lives. This isn't my field -- is it yours? How can you rationally jump to criticize what appears to be the largest, most expert society of people on this subject so quickly?

no it's not my field. and as you can see, it's pretty easy to judge.

i don't care how big they are, or that they have degrees. chiropractors are numerous and have degrees, too. both have some irrational ideas.

 

[Moonbear]

veganism puts people right on the edge of inadequacy. maybe for wealthy, highly-educated westerners past child-bearing age, it is OK. but if they would just do a little research, instead of bowing to religious dogma of us being highly "evolved" spiritual creatures now, they would know better. this is a pet peeve, and i am prepared for a pubmed battle if need be. veganism is *&$#ing dangerous.

If you actually READ the abstract instead of the knee-jerk reaction bopping you in the head, you'd have noticed that they weren't saying a vegan diet was complete on it's own. It mentions that some of these diets may require supplements. Dieticians are trained to help educate people about nutrition and to get healthy diets. They have to deal with the variety of personal preferences people have and if they are dealing with someone who is a vegan, they need to know what supplements to recommend to ensure they get a healthy diet. There isn't any quackery about that.

Of course, my personal druthers are that it is silly to go taking supplements when you could just eat a food source that provides those nutrients. Vegetarians (not vegans) can be very healthy, because they aren't really eliminating all animal products from their diet, just meat. Eggs and cheese are usually still acceptable for vegetarians.

Unfortunately, there are also a lot of myths and propaganda spread by animal rights groups about animal production that have been spread to the point that people believe it's common knowledge. That spread is pretty much because people are so detached from where their food actually comes from that they fall for all the misinformation spread about.

And, indeed, as was mentioned earlier, transportation requirements for animals are pretty strict, and yes, they do get better treatment than humans flying economy class. I kept commenting on that when I was flying to Africa and didn't have enough room to stretch my legs or lie down in any way that allowed sleep, and the flight attendants disappeared for most of the flight...if I called and asked for water, they'd bring a half cup, usually about an hour after I asked.

 

[junglebeast]

And, indeed, as was mentioned earlier, transportation requirements for animals are pretty strict, and yes, they do get better treatment than humans flying economy class. I kept commenting on that when I was flying to Africa and didn't have enough room to stretch my legs or lie down in any way that allowed sleep, and the flight attendants disappeared for most of the flight...if I called and asked for water, they'd bring a half cup, usually about an hour after I asked.

Dude, you got on the wrong plane. When I flew to Africa (Emirates), I was treated like a king. It seemed like there were almost as many flight attendants as passengers...all sexy ladies wearing an attractive uniform. They carried around a polished silver platter with moist rags to cleanse the face. Then they carried around a silver platter with toys for the children. Then they gave us lots of complimentary things..such as a blanket, toothbrush kit, and socks. They had several meal options, all of which were delicious...by far better than anything I ate during my stay in Africa. We had a layover and they gave us free vouchers to hit up the bar twice -- free drinks of our choice with meal. Every seat had a built in TV screen with 2,000+ movies on-demand that could be paused at will, and a slew of games that were connected via a LAN. And plenty of legroom. Did I mention that this was economy class, and I had originally selected these tickets because they were the cheapest I could find?

 

[WiFO215]

Dude...

all sexy ladies wearing an attractive uniform.

I don't think Moonbear would care. I think she's a girl.

 

[Sorry!]

sure, you would think so. and maybe sometimes they even try to do the right thing and still fail. but consider how many people shop at walmart and how well it represents a cross-section of society before going out and making general recommendations that veganism is a good thing to advocate.


http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/289/8/979

Neurologic Impairment in Children Associated With Maternal Dietary Deficiency of Cobalamin—Georgia, 2001

JAMA. 2003;289:979-980.

MMWR. 2003;52:61-64

2 tables omitted

During 2001, neurologic impairment resulting from cobalamin (vitamin B12) deficiency was diagnosed in two children in Georgia. The children were breastfed by mothers who followed vegetarian diets.* This report summarizes the two cases and provides guidance for health-care providers on identifying and preventing cobalamin deficiency among breastfed infants of vegetarian mothers.


Case 1

During August 2001, a girl aged 15 months was hospitalized for lethargy and failure to thrive. She was born after a full-term pregnancy complicated by prolonged nausea and vomiting. She was breastfed for 8 months, but the extent (exclusivity) of breast milk consumed relative to other food was unknown. Her mother reported following a vegan diet during the preceding 7 years and took nutritional and vitamin supplements. The cobalamin content of the supplements was unknown. When the child was aged approximately 8 months, organic whole-grain cereals and fruit shakes were introduced, but she had a poor appetite and vomited regularly. Her parents became concerned about her growth and development, and she was evaluated by a pediatrician at age 15 months. The pediatrician diagnosed failure to thrive, developmental delay, and severe macrocytic anemia. The child was hospitalized, and cobalamin deficiency was diagnosed (marked elevation [not quantified] of urine methylmalonic acid; serum B12:100 pg/mL [normal range: 210-911 pg/mL]).

The child received supplementary food by mouth and by nasogastric tube. She also received 2 mg of cyanocobalamin and 3 mg of hydroxocobalamin intramuscularly (IM) over 3 days. Three days later, she had partial complex seizures, which stopped without anticonvulsants. A brain MRI indicated global cerebral atrophy. The mother was treated with 1 mg of cobalamin IM.

At age 16 months, the child was seen in a genetics clinic to eliminate possible genetic causes of her neurologic deficiency. At age 28 months, her developmental skills ranged from 9 months for fine motor skills to 18 months for gross motor skills. Her expressive language was at 10 months, and her receptive language was at 12 months. At age 32 months, she had made developmental progress but continued to have developmental delays, especially in speech and language. She was prescribed daily sublingual cobalamin supplements.
...

So how exactly do these 2 stories prove my point wrong?
There are approximately 4 256 836 vegans in America alone. I've seen you give me 2 stories of people who were quite obviously misinformed and not maintaining a nutrious life-style while following their vegan diet. I don't think it's dangerous.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Did I mention that this was economy class, and I had originally selected these tickets because they were the cheapest I could find?

British airlines subsidised much? ;-p

I don't think Moonbear would care. I think she's a girl.

I think that even female Moon Bears can appreciate attractive flight attendants considering that the unattractive often possesses attributes that may be unpleasant when stuck in a small craft for long periods of time.

 

[Proton Soup]

If you actually READ the abstract instead of the knee-jerk reaction bopping you in the head, you'd have noticed that they weren't saying a vegan diet was complete on it's own. It mentions that some of these diets may require supplements. Dieticians are trained to help educate people about nutrition and to get healthy diets. They have to deal with the variety of personal preferences people have and if they are dealing with someone who is a vegan, they need to know what supplements to recommend to ensure they get a healthy diet. There isn't any quackery about that.

Of course, my personal druthers are that it is silly to go taking supplements when you could just eat a food source that provides those nutrients. Vegetarians (not vegans) can be very healthy, because they aren't really eliminating all animal products from their diet, just meat. Eggs and cheese are usually still acceptable for vegetarians.

Unfortunately, there are also a lot of myths and propaganda spread by animal rights groups about animal production that have been spread to the point that people believe it's common knowledge. That spread is pretty much because people are so detached from where their food actually comes from that they fall for all the misinformation spread about.

And, indeed, as was mentioned earlier, transportation requirements for animals are pretty strict, and yes, they do get better treatment than humans flying economy class. I kept commenting on that when I was flying to Africa and didn't have enough room to stretch my legs or lie down in any way that allowed sleep, and the flight attendants disappeared for most of the flight...if I called and asked for water, they'd bring a half cup, usually about an hour after I asked.

A vegetarian diet can meet current recommendations for all of these nutrients. In some cases, supplements or fortified foods can provide useful amounts of important nutrients.

in some cases? what does this imply to you? it implies to me that usually people do fine without supplements, and a relative few need help. perhaps it is true that a person can get by OK on a vegan diet, but truth is that it is highly improbable that they will.
if they would simply say there that vegan diets are usually insufficient, i wouldn't have such a problem with them.

 

[Mk]

I think what he meant was clear, that biological evolution has not freed humans from the need to eat meat.

What happened to this post? I don't remember deleting it.

American Dietetic Association: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/...el.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum"

A vegetarian diet is defined as one that does not include meat (including fowl) or seafood, or products containing those foods.

What is the difference between "meat" and "fish"? I always thought of cow, pig, bird, fish, and crustacean all as "meat." Is the difference culinary or physical? (or metaphysical)?

 

[Proton Soup]

So how exactly do these 2 stories prove my point wrong?
There are approximately 4 256 836 vegans in America alone. I've seen you give me 2 stories of people who were quite obviously misinformed and not maintaining a nutrious life-style while following their vegan diet. I don't think it's dangerous.

you want more? i already gave you the study on 7th day adventists, and that was even a co-mingling with lactoovovegetarians and some omnivores.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...d&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15189123&query_hl=2
Annu Rev Nutr. 2004;24:299-326.

Vitamin B12 deficiency as a worldwide problem.

Stabler SP, Allen RH.

Division of Hematology, Department of Medicine, University of Colorado Health Sciences Center, Denver, Colorado 80262, USA. Sally.Stabler@UCHSC.edu

Pernicious anemia is a common cause of megaloblastic anemia throughout the world and especially in persons of European or African descent. Dietary deficiency of vitamin B12 due to vegetarianism is increasing and causes hyperhomocysteinemia. The breast-fed infant of a vitamin B12-deficient mother is at risk for severe developmental abnormalities, growth failure, and anemia. Elevated methylmalonic acid and/or total homocysteine are sensitive indicators of vitamin B12-deficient diets and correlate with clinical abnormalities. Dietary vitamin B12 deficiency is a severe problem in the Indian subcontinent, Mexico, Central and South America, and selected areas in Africa. Dietary vitamin B12 deficiency is not prevalent in Asia, except in vegetarians. Areas for research include intermittent vitamin B12 supplement dosing and better measurements of the bioavailability of B12 in fermented vegetarian foods and algae.

Publication Types:

* Review


PMID: 15189123 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...d&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15171677&query_hl=2
Can Fam Physician. 2004 May;50:743-7.

Vitamin B12 deficiency. Prevalence among South Asians at a Toronto clinic.

Gupta AK, Damji A, Uppaluri A.

Rexdale Community Health Centre, Ontario. patriciabaltazar@hotmail.com

OBJECTIVE: To estimate the prevalence of vitamin B12 deficiency in adult South Asian patients. DESIGN: Retrospective chart review. SETTING: Family practice clinic in Toronto, Ont. PARTICIPANTS: Records of 988 South Asian patients. INTERVENTION: Of 1000 randomly selected records, we found 988 charts. From charts with at least one documented B12 level, we extracted data on age, mean corpuscular volume (MCV), hemoglobin and ferritin levels, and diet (if available). Descriptive and analytic statistics were calculated. MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES: Levels of serum B12 and factors associated with low levels of B12. RESULTS: B12 results were documented in 49% of charts; 46% of results showed deficiency. Patients older than 65 and vegetarians were more likely to be B12 deficient. Low serum B12 levels were positively correlated with low hemoglobin and ferritin levels and poorly correlated with low MCV levels. CONCLUSION: Many more South Asian patients than patients in the general population have vitamin B12 deficiency. A vegetarian diet seems a strong risk factor. A single low result, however, might not indicate true B12 deficiency.

PMID: 15171677 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...d&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15153278&query_hl=2
Public Health Nutr. 2004 May;7(3):467-72.

Homocysteine and cobalamin status in German vegans.

Waldmann A, Koschizke JW, Leitzmann C, Hahn A.

Institute of Food Science, University of Hanover, Wunstorfer Strasse 14, D-30453 Hanover, Germany.

OBJECTIVE: The study aimed to evaluate the homocysteine and cobalamin status of German vegans and determine whether the intake of very small amounts of foods of animal origin can improve this status. DESIGN AND SETTING: Cross-sectional study, Germany. SUBJECTS: The dietary and nutritional intakes of 131 vegans (73 women, 58 men; age range: 20.2-82.1 years) were evaluated using a general questionnaire and two food-frequency questionnaires. RESULTS: The prevalence of inadequate cobalamin status in volunteers of the German Vegan Study was 28.2%, and that of hyperhomocysteinaemia, 38.1%. Moderate vegans were affected to a lesser extent than were strict vegans. Duration of veganism and cobalamin concentration were inversely correlated (Spearman's r=-0.175, P=0.047). Folate concentration and erythrocyte aspartic acid aminotransferase activity were not correlated with plasma homocysteine concentration, but duration of veganism correlated positively with homocysteine concentration (Spearman's r=0.319, P<0.001). Cobalamin and homocysteine concentrations were inversely correlated (when controlling for duration of veganism; r=-0.602, P<0.001). CONCLUSION: Cobalamin status needs to be improved in order to minimise the risk of hyperhomocysteinaemia.

PMID: 15153278 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

long-term damage to kids subjected to these quacky diets:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=10197567&query_hl=14
Am J Clin Nutr. 1999 Apr;69(4):664-71.

Risk of persistent cobalamin deficiency in adolescents fed a macrobiotic diet in early life.

van Dusseldorp M, Schneede J, Refsum H, Ueland PM, Thomas CM, de Boer E, van Staveren WA.

Division of Human Nutrition and Epidemiology, Wageningen Agricultural University, Netherlands. Marijke.vandusseldorp@staff.nutepi.wau.nl

BACKGROUND: Cobalamin deficiency has been described in children consuming macrobiotic diets. OBJECTIVE: We investigated whether moderate consumption of animal products is sufficient for achieving normal cobalamin function in 73 adolescents who had received a macrobiotic diet until 6 y of age and had then switched to a lactovegetarian, lactoovovegetarian, or omnivorous diet (macrobiotic adolescents). DESIGN: Hematologic indexes and serum concentrations of methylmalonic acid (MMA), total homocysteine (tHcy), and folate were measured. Current consumption frequency of animal products and cobalamin intake from dairy products were assessed by questionnaire. Data from 94 age-matched adolescents who received an omnivorous diet from birth were used as a reference. RESULTS: Serum cobalamin concentrations were significantly lower and concentrations of MMA and folate and mean corpuscular volume (MCV) were significantly higher in macrobiotic adolescents than in control adolescents: of macrobiotic adolescents, 21% had abnormal MMA concentrations (>0.41 micromol/L), 37% had abnormal cobalamin concentrations (<218 pmol/L), 10% had abnormal tHcy concentrations (> 12.8 micromol/L), and 15% had abnormal MCV (> 89 fL). In macrobiotic adolescents, dairy products (200 g milk or yogurt and 22 g cheese/d) supplied on average 0.95 microg cobalamin/d; additionally, these adolescents consumed fish, meat, or chicken 2-3 times/wk. In girls, meat consumption contributed more to cobalamin status than the consumption of dairy products, whereas in boys these food groups were equally important. CONCLUSIONS: A substantial number of the formerly strict macrobiotic adolescents still had impaired cobalamin function. Thus, moderate consumption of animal products is not sufficient for restoring normal cobalamin status in subjects with inadequate cobalamin intake during the early years of life.

PMID: 10197567 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


you can use this one as a positive if you like:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...d&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=8172120&query_hl=14
Am J Clin Nutr. 1994 May;59(5 Suppl):1176S-1181S.

Vegetarian diets and children.

Sanders TA, Reddy S.

Department of Nutrition and Dietetics, Kings College, University of London, England.

The diets and growth of children reared on vegetarian diets are reviewed. Excessive bulk combined with low energy density can be a problem for children aged < or = 5 y and can lead to imparied growth. Diets that have a high content of phytate and other modifiers of mineral absorption are associated with an increased prevalence of rickets and iron-deficiency anemia. Vitamin B-12 deficiency is a real hazard in unsupplemented or unfortified vegan and vegetarian diets. It is suggested that vegans and vegetarians should use oils with a low ratio of linoleic to linolenic acid in view of the recently recognized role of docosahexaenoic acid in visual functioning. If known pitfalls are avoided, the growth and development of children reared on both vegan and vegetarian diets appears normal.

Publication Types:

* Review


PMID: 8172120 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


and there are other good reasons to eat meat:
Creatine monohydrate in resistant depression: a preliminary study.

Roitman S, Green T, Osher Y, Karni N, Levine J.

Ness Ziona Mental Health Center, Sackler Faculty of Medicine, Tel Aviv University, Tel Aviv, Israel.

OBJECTIVES: Creatine plays a pivotal role in brain energy homeostasis, and altered cerebral energy metabolism may be involved in the pathophysiology of depression. Oral creatine supplementation may modify brain high-energy phosphate metabolism in depressed subjects. METHODS: Eight unipolar and two bipolar patients with treatment-resistant depression were treated for four weeks with 3-5 g/day of creatine monohydrate in an open add-on design. Outcome measures were the Hamilton Depression Rating Scale, Hamilton Anxiety Scale, and Clinical Global Impression scores, recorded at baseline and at weeks 1, 2, 3 and 4. RESULTS: One patient improved considerably after one week and withdrew. Both bipolar patients developed hypomania/mania. For the remaining seven patients, all scale scores significantly improved. Adverse reactions were mild and transitory. CONCLUSIONS: This small, preliminary, open study of creatine monohydrate suggests a beneficial effect of creatine augmentation in unipolar depression, but possible precipitation of a manic switch in bipolar depression.

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/72/3/762
Am J Clin Nutr. 2000 Sep;72(3):762-9.
Signs of impaired cognitive function in adolescents with marginal cobalamin status.
Louwman MW, van Dusseldorp M, van de Vijver FJ, Thomas CM, Schneede J, Ueland PM, Refsum H, van Staveren WA.

Division of Human Nutrition and Epidemiology, Wageningen Agricultural University, Netherlands.

BACKGROUND: Lack of cobalamin may lead to neurologic disorders, which have been reported in strict vegetarians. OBJECTIVE: The objective of this study was to investigate whether cognitive functioning is affected in adolescents (aged 10-16 y) with marginal cobalamin status as a result of being fed a macrobiotic diet up to an average age of 6 y. DESIGN: Data on dietary intake, psychological test performance, and biochemical variables of cobalamin status were collected from 48 adolescents who consumed macrobiotic (vegan type) diets up to the age of 6 y, subsequently followed by lactovegetarian or omnivorous diets, and from 24 subjects (aged 10-18 y) who were fed omnivorous diets from birth onward. Thirty-one subjects from the previously macrobiotic group were cobalamin deficient according to their plasma methylmalonic acid concentrations. Seventeen previously macrobiotic subjects and all control subjects had normal cobalamin status. RESULTS: The control subjects performed better on most psychological tests than did macrobiotic subjects with low or normal cobalamin status. A significant relation between test score and cobalamin deficiency (P: = 0.01) was observed for a test measuring fluid intelligence (correlation coefficient: -0.28; 95% CI: -0.48, -0.08). This effect became more pronounced (P: = 0.003) within the subgroup of macrobiotic subjects (correlation coefficient: -0.38; 95% CI: -0.62, - 0.14). CONCLUSION: Our data suggest that cobalamin deficiency, in the absence of hematologic signs, may lead to impaired cognitive performance in adolescents.

PMID: 10966896 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Med J Aust. 1979 Jul 14;2(1):1-3.Links
Brain damage in infancy and dietary vitamin B12 deficiency.
Wighton MC, Manson JI, Speed I, Robertson E, Chapman E.

A case of the exclusively breast-fed infant of a vegetarian mother is reported. Neurological deterioration commenced between three and six months of age, and progressed to a comatose premoribund state by the age of nine months. Investigations revealed a mild nutritional vitamin B12 deficiency in the mother, and a very severe nutritional B12 deficiency in the infant, with severe megaloblastic anaemia. Treatment of the infant with vitamin B12 resulted in a rapid clinical and haematological improvement, but neurological recovery was incomplete. Evidence is presented that dietary B12 deficiency was the sole cause of the infant's deterioration, and the literature relating to the condition is reviewed. It is recommended that all strict vegetarians (vegans), especially women in the child-bearing age group, take vitamin B12 supplements.

PMID: 502936 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Z Geburtshilfe Neonatol. 2007 Aug;211(4):157-61.Click here to read Links
[Maternal vitamin B12 deficiency: cause for neurological symptoms in infancy]
[Article in German]

Lücke T, Korenke GC, Poggenburg I, Bentele KH, Das AM, Hartmann H.

Klinik für Kinder und Jugendliche, Medizinische Hochschule Hannover.

BACKGROUND: Symptoms of Vitamin B (12) deficiency in infancy include growth retardation, regression of psychomotor development, muscular hypotonia and brain atrophy. Besides an inappropriate vegetarian diet of the infants, a vegan diet or a pernicious anaemia of the mother may lead to an insufficient vitamin B (12) supply of the child. PATIENTS AND METHODS: We report here the neurological symptoms of 4 fully breast-fed infants from mothers on vegan diet or with pernicious anaemia. DISCUSSION AND CONCLUSION: Vitamin B (12) deficiency can easily be diagnosed by detection of methylmalonic acid when measuring the organic acids in urine. Vitamin B (12) deficiency should be avoided or diagnosed as early as possible since a supplementation of mother and child can prevent neurological symptoms of the baby. Furthermore, the neurological symptoms of the infant with manifest vitamin B (12) deficiency are (partially) reversible.

PMID: 17729202 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/78/1/3
Vegetarianism and vitamin B-12 (cobalamin) deficiency


can malnutrition make moms act crazy? why yes, yes it can.
N Engl J Med. 1988 Jun 30;318(26):1720-8.Links
Neuropsychiatric disorders caused by cobalamin deficiency in the absence of anemia or macrocytosis.
Lindenbaum J, Healton EB, Savage DG, Brust JC, Garrett TJ, Podell ER, Marcell PD, Stabler SP, Allen RH.

Department of Medicine, Columbia-Presbyterian Medical Center, New York, NY 10032.

Among 141 consecutive patients with neuro-psychiatric abnormalities due to cobalamin deficiency, we found that 40 (28 percent) had no anemia or macrocytosis. The hematocrit was normal in 34, the mean cell volume was normal in 25, and both tests were normal in 19. Characteristic features in such patients included paresthesia, sensory loss, ataxia, dementia, and psychiatric disorders; longstanding neurologic symptoms without anemia; normal white-cell and platelet counts and serum bilirubin and lactate dehydrogenase levels; and markedly elevated serum concentrations of methylmalonic acid and total homocysteine. Serum cobalamin levels were above 150 pmol per liter (200 pg per milliliter) in 2 patients, between 75 and 150 pmol per liter (100 and 200 pg per milliliter) in 16, and below 75 pmol per liter (100 pg per milliliter) in only 22. Except for one patient who died during the first week of treatment, every patient in this group benefited from cobalamin therapy. Responses included improvement in neuropsychiatric abnormalities (39 of 39), improvement (often within the normal range) in one or more hematologic findings (36 of 39), and a decrease of more than 50 percent in levels of serum methylmalonic acid, total homocysteine, or both (31 of 31). We conclude that neuropsychiatric disorders due to cobalamin deficiency occur commonly in the absence of anemia or an elevated mean cell volume and that measurements of serum methylmalonic acid and total homocysteine both before and after treatment are useful in the diagnosis of these patients.

PMID: 3374544 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Nutr Rev. 1996 Dec;54(12):382-90.Links
Folate, vitamin B12, and neuropsychiatric disorders.
Bottiglieri T.

Kimberly H. Courtwright and Joseph W. Summers Institute of Metabolic Disease, Baylor University Medical Center, Dallas, Texas, USA.

Folate and vitamin B12 are required both in the methylation of homocysteine to methionine and in the synthesis of S-adenosylmethionine. S-adenosylmethionine is involved in numerous methylation reactions involving proteins, phospholipids, DNA, and neurotransmitter metabolism. Both folate and vitamin B12 deficiency may cause similar neurologic and psychiatric disturbances including depression, dementia, and a demyelinating myelopathy. A current theory proposes that a defect in methylation processes is central to the biochemical basis of the neuropsychiatry of these vitamin deficiencies. Folate deficiency may specifically affect central monoamine metabolism and aggravate depressive disorders. In addition, the neurotoxic effects of homocysteine may also play a role in the neurologic and psychiatric disturbances that are associated with folate and vitamin B12 deficiency.

PMID: 9155210 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

 

[junglebeast]

Ok, so they should take B12 and Cobalamine supplements. Next?

 

[Monique]

in some cases? what does this imply to you? it implies to me that usually people do fine without supplements, and a relative few need help. perhaps it is true that a person can get by OK on a vegan diet, but truth is that it is highly improbable that they will.
if they would simply say there that vegan diets are usually insufficient, i wouldn't have such a problem with them.

Did you actually read http://www.eatright.org/ada/files/VegetarianPositionFINAL.pdf" and their point of view?

Lacto-ovo-vegetarians can obtain adequate vitamin B-12 from dairy foods, eggs, or other reliable vitamin B-12 sources (fortified foods and supplements), if regularly consumed. For vegans, vitamin B-12 must be obtained from regular use of vitamin B-12-fortified foods, such as fortified soy and rice beverages, some breakfast cereals and meat analogs, or Red Star Vegetarian Support Formula nutritional yeast; otherwise a daily vitamin B-12 supplement is needed. No unfortified plant food contains any significant amount of active vitamin B-12. Fermented soy products cannot be considered a reliable source of active B-12 (12,46).

I don't see what the problem is with taking a micro-nutrient fortified food or supplement, it is a modern form of nutrition. Vitamin B12 is not even produced by animals, but it is produced by bacteria.

 

[Monique]

you want more? i already gave you the study on 7th day adventists, and that was even a co-mingling with lactoovovegetarians and some omnivores.

And? It is a well-established fact that B-12 is a vitamin that is hard to acquire in a vegan diet, since we don't have exposure to the B-12 producing bacteria (I wonder whether it is possible to establish a symbiosis with the bacteria by ingesting them).

Do you want a PubMed bombardment on the detrimental health of meat-eating populations?

 

[Proton Soup]

Ok, so they should take B12 and Cobalamine supplements. Next?

how about DHA? zinc? or perhaps there are other nutrients that one gets from eating meat and fish that are equally important? like say the Seychelles study. those women were eating fish, not taking DHA and mineral supplements. reducing that to simply 'one should supplement DHA' as some have done is stupid. most cobalamin supplements (B12 is cobalamin you know) are not even the same form as found in real food. same goes for vitamin E. most vit E supps are alpha tocopherol, but real food has up to 8 tocopherols and tocotrienols.

 

[junglebeast]

how about DHA? zinc? or perhaps there are other nutrients that one gets from eating meat and fish that are equally important?

When they say "vegetarian diets are healthy.." they are assuming that proper supplements are being taken. zinc, DHA, and several other necessary supplements are covered in their position paper linked by Monique.

 

[Proton Soup]

Did you actually read http://www.eatright.org/ada/files/VegetarianPositionFINAL.pdf" and their point of view? I don't see what the problem is with taking a micro-nutrient supplement, it is just modern form of nutrition (as long as you have an otherwise varied diet). Vitamin B12 is not even produced by animals, but it is produced by bacteria.

i'm going to read it now. but honestly, the statement that theoretically you can achieve sufficiency, when in fact they usually fail, isn't much comfort to me. wealthy, educated, and past child-bearing age... that's fine, i have no quibbles with someone wanting to follow their religious beliefs. but in practice, not on paper, the diets usually fail. this can have detrimental long-term, often disastrous effects on children.

 

[z0rn dawg]

No one knows exactly why cats occasionally eat grass. Often it appears to act more as an emetic than a nutriment. My own couch lions are indoor-only but they'll sometimes eat a bit of vegetable that falls on the floor; I suspect they do that only because they 1) see me eating it and 2) it's usually covered in butter, sauce or cheese. Obligate carnivore means they must eat meat to survive; although cats can eat veggies, they rarely will of their own accord if a source of meat is readily available. Cats cannot manufacture the amino acid taurine in their bodies; they must get it from meats which are the only natural sources of it. Vegans who attempt to force their moral code upon their feline friends (aside from deserving rather stiff punishment which preferably involves soaking in melted lard followed immediately by an introduction to a large, hungry feral cat colony) must be careful to feed them foods with taurine added.

So, why does my (indoor-outdoor) cat eat grass...like all the time? He gets some nutrients out of it. There's no way it tastes good because he usually pukes it up in an hour or so.

Shouldn't humans do what's natural? We're clearly meant to get some vitamins, minerals, etc. that are only found in meat. To me, that sounds like veganism was not how humans were meant to live. I go back to what's natural. And we really don't know what the long term effects of taking supplements are (I think so anyway). It could turn out that it's very unhealthy in the long run.

 

[negitron]

So, why does my (indoor-outdoor) cat eat grass...like all the time? He gets some nutrients out of it. There's no way it tastes good because he usually pukes it up in an hour or so.

Yes, that's what an emetic is: it induces vomiting. In all seriousness, you may want to take your cat to the vet and have this looked into. Occasional grass-eating is normal in felines but 'all the time" is decidedly abnormal and may indicate a serious problem.

 

[Monique]

(I wonder whether it is possible to establish a symbiosis with the bacteria by ingesting them).

I'll take the liberty to respond to myself. Here is a PubMed citation of a paper http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/...el.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum".

Vitamin B12 synthesis by human small intestinal bacteria.

In man, physiological amounts of vitamin B12 (cyanocobalamin) are absorbed by the intrinsic factor mediated mechanism exclusively in the ileum. Human faeces contain appreciable quantities of vitamin B12 or vitamin B12-like material presumably produced by bacteria in the colon, but this is unavailable to the non-coprophagic individual. However, the human small intestine also often harbours a considerable microflora and this is even more extensive in apparently healthy southern Indian subjects. We now show that at least two groups of organisms in the small bowel, Pseudomonas and Klebsiella sp., may synthesise significant amounts of the vitamin. http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v283/n5749/pdf/283781a0.pdf"[/color]

Maybe we're just meant to eat some soil (or feces) once in a while to ingest the bacterium

 

[Equate]

Maybe we're just meant to eat some soil (or feces) once in a while to ingest the bacterium

A friend of mine does just that. Every now and then she scoops up a pinch of soil and eats it.

She says it "tastes great".


PS When she was pregnant last year her cravings for soil literally increased tenfold.

Go figure...

 

[negitron]

A friend of mine does just that. Every now and then she scoops up a pinch of soil and eats it.

That's a medical disorder called pica; it can be a symptom of underlying disease, infection or mineral deficiency.

 

[Equate]

That's a medical disorder called pica; it can be a symptom of underlying disease, infection or mineral deficiency.

Thanks a lot. I will let her know.

 

[lisab]

That's a medical disorder called pica; it can be a symptom of underlying disease, infection or mineral deficiency.

Wow, I've never heard of pica! Interesting.

I knew a woman who craved the chalky stuff in wallboard (gypsum), especially when she was pregnant. She would pick at the wall and eat it when she talked on the phone. Other than that, she was pretty much normal, though.

 

[Proton Soup]

i'm going to read it now. but honestly, the statement that theoretically you can achieve sufficiency, when in fact they usually fail, isn't much comfort to me. wealthy, educated, and past child-bearing age... that's fine, i have no quibbles with someone wanting to follow their religious beliefs. but in practice, not on paper, the diets usually fail. this can have detrimental long-term, often disastrous effects on children.

there is definitely some good info in there. lots of can and may. don't really care for some of the other portrayals, like saying 'similar' instead of 'shorter' when talking about growth.

as for the grading of conclusions, only one was grade I, one grade II, then the rest, and most other conclusions unevaluated.

I'll take the liberty to respond to myself. Here is a PubMed citation of a paper http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/...el.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum".

Maybe we're just meant to eat some soil (or feces) once in a while to ingest the bacterium

sure, that's an option. might want to boil it first.

 

[Mk]

That's a medical disorder called pica; it can be a symptom of underlying disease, infection or mineral deficiency.

It also might not. Ice is the most common pica, and people just eat it because they like it.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Do you want a PubMed bombardment on the detrimental health of meat-eating populations?

Would that be detriments to the average meat eater? or to those who eat a balanced healthy diet containing meat?