IFRs, EM Waves & Moving at c Velocity: What's the Effect?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the implications of moving at the speed of light (c) in relation to inertial frames of reference (IFRs) and electromagnetic (EM) waves. Participants explore the validity of Maxwell's equations under these conditions, the historical context prior to the theory of relativity, and the relationship between classical electromagnetism and relativity.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Historical

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions the validity of Maxwell's equations if one were to move at the speed of light, stating a desire to avoid relativity in the discussion.
  • Another participant clarifies that the spatial dimensions x, y, and z in Maxwell's equations are Cartesian coordinates, emphasizing that EM fields exist in space and vary with distance.
  • A participant references historical approaches to electromagnetism before 1905, seeking insights into the development of the theory without invoking relativity.
  • Some participants assert that relativity is implicit in Maxwell's equations, suggesting that the equations indicate EM waves always move at speed c, regardless of the reference frame.
  • One participant argues that the thread is nonsensical due to the inherent connection between Maxwell's equations and relativity, citing the historical interpretation of EM waves in relation to the ether frame.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express disagreement regarding the role of relativity in the context of Maxwell's equations and the implications of moving at the speed of light. Some assert that relativity cannot be ignored, while others seek to explore the classical framework without it.

Contextual Notes

There are unresolved questions regarding the assumptions underlying the relationship between classical electromagnetism and relativity, as well as the implications of moving at the speed of light for the validity of Maxwell's equations.

alvaros
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Inertial frames of reference ( IFRs ) and Electromagnetic ( EM ) waves.

What would happen if you move at c velocity ? ( at the same velocity of a EM wave )
Maxwell equations are valid ?
No relativity, please.
 
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What do x, y and z mean in Maxwell equations ?
They must be measured respect to an IFR ?
I have no idea.
What was the approach before 1905 ?
Any comment would be appreciated.
 
The models we have wouldn't make sense for a reference frame traveling at the speed of light, certainly not for matter.

Here is Maxwell's approach in 1861 - http://vacuum-physics.com/Maxwell/maxwell_oplf.pdf

x,y,z are Cartesian spatial dimensions (coordinate system), because EM fields exist in space and their magnitude (intensity) varies with distance.


J. C. Maxwell, A Dynamical Theory of the Electromagnetic Field -
http://www.journals.royalsoc.ac.uk/content/yw7lx230g0h64637/fulltext.pdf (probably best to use 'save target as'.)
 
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To Astronuc: Thank you for your answer and the links.

But I wanted somebody guide me on the path EM waves -> Relativity , not just showing the theory. I want to view the need of relativity.
Thats the reason I said "no relativity, please"
What happen if we just consider classical IFRs and EM theory ?
Some books I read state that relativity is implicit in Maxwell equations. ( ?? )
 
alvaros said:
relativity is implicit in Maxwell equations.

Yes, that is exactly why this thread is nonsensical.

For example, Maxwell's equations say EM waves move "at speed c". Not just "at speed c relative to the source", but always at c. At first this was interpreted to mean that Maxwell's equations are only valid in some special reference frame (the ether frame), which matches nicely with other classical waves (the speed is always constant relative to the medium) but has since contradicted experiment and inspired Einstein to propose the theory that Maxwell's equations are valid in all inertial reference frames. We can't ignore relativity in classical electromagnetism.
 

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