Integral Fast Reactor: Why Did Funding Stop?

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The Integral Fast Reactor (IFR) project lost funding primarily due to concerns over nuclear proliferation and the economic viability of its technology. Despite successful tests of the Experimental Breeder Reactor-II (EBR-II), the Department of Energy terminated the IFR program in 1994, influenced by political shifts and safety concerns following incidents like Chernobyl. Discussions highlight the potential of IFR technology for utilizing nuclear waste and providing a reliable energy source, yet critics argue about the high costs and safety risks associated with liquid sodium as a coolant. The debate continues over the IFR's advantages compared to other energy sources, with proponents asserting its long-term benefits for energy independence. Ultimately, the IFR represents a complex intersection of technological promise and political challenges in nuclear energy development.
  • #51
Andrew Mason said:
50W average represents around 270W peak. In daytime with no clouds and overhead sun, the solar irradiation would be the full amount (1367 w/m^2 less a small amount that does not make it to the surface). So the output at 20% efficiency would provide 270 watts/m^2.

:smile: ok, my 300 W wasn't too far off, no ? But that means that per square meter, you have to spend, at $2,- per peak watt, $ 530,- and not $100,- to get your 50W average.

These are all good points. It was a ball-park figure. The $1 trillion for infrastructure may be a little low. If you distribute the solar panels over a large geographic area and keep them in the lower latitudes in areas that have more sunny days, you can avoid many of these problems.

Well, you can attenuate them: the peak/year average can be as low as 3 (while in moderate regions, this is rather 5-6), and the summer/winter variation is probably smaller too. But you will still have at least a factor 2 or 3 over simply "yearly average", if solar is to provide a *large fraction* of the provided power (say, 70% or so of consumption) in a reliable way.

As long as solar (or wind or other erratic renewables) is a minority contributor (say, 15% or 20%), then this doesn't play a role, and the price per KWhr delivered will be much lower, as we can just use "yearly average". What renders this expensive is when we need reliability (which is not needed when it plays in the 15% ballpark, because reliability is then provided by the other technologies).

We are talking about providing all of the power needs for the largest consuming nation on earth. No one is going to do that with one single technology, of course But the cost appears to be competitive with nuclear, and the fuel is free.

I really don't think that, even as a minority contribution, at actual prices, solar PV is competitive with nuclear (you have 25c/KWhr for solar, while this is ~8c/KWhr for nuclear/coal). But even then this comes about because solar is not providing for an essential function in power delivery: reliability and load following.

That is low. But with large demand, you may be amazed what kind of efficiencies and cost reductions might become available. I have used the $2 figure based on today's figures. Where I may be wrong here is in assuming that this represents the price for average wattage and not peak wattage.

Well, current average retail price per peak W is ~$4.5 or so. So assuming this to be $2,- is already assuming a serious drop in price (for instance upscaling). In moderate regions, you have to multiply this with 6, and in sunny southern regions, with 3 to go from peak to yearly average.
 
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  • #52
No need to estimate the solar irradiation. It has been measured, year round, cloudy days and not. In the US it varies from a high annual average of 292 W/m^2 to 167 W/m^2 (flat plate collection), depending on location.
http://www.nrel.gov/gis/images/us_pv_annual_may2004.jpg
The peak power at high surface elevations and low latitudes is about 1100 W/m^2
 
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  • #53
vanesch said:
:
As long as solar (or wind or other erratic renewables) is a minority contributor (say, 15% or 20%), then this doesn't play a role, and the price per KWhr delivered will be much lower, as we can just use "yearly average". What renders this expensive is when we need reliability (which is not needed when it plays in the 15% ballpark, because reliability is then provided by the other technologies).
Good point. If you were to use solar electricity to produce hydrogen by electrolysis (for use in cars, say) an average supply works just fine.


I really don't think that, even as a minority contribution, at actual prices, solar PV is competitive with nuclear (you have 25c/KWhr for solar, while this is ~8c/KWhr for nuclear/coal). But even then this comes about because solar is not providing for an essential function in power delivery: reliability and load following.
The capital cost of the IFR must be huge on a per watt basis. A 1 GW conventional nuclear plant will run about $4 billion. which is $4 per Watt. An IFR would be at least double, maybe triple that so $8 - $12 billion not including development costs. While an IFR if very efficient, it does use fuel and has a significant operating cost. Accepting that my figures for cost may be out by a factor of 6, that puts solar at today's prices about $12/watt. So it I appears to me that solar would be competitive. A big advantage of solar would be the speed at which it could be implemented.


AM
 
  • #54
The obvious use for Solar power in most of the US would be to directly power AC units.
No need for supply infrastructure, power storage or baseline/peak load handling.
When it's sunny it generates more power - which drives more AC.
 
  • #55
Andrew Mason said:
. A 1 GW conventional nuclear plant will run about $4 billion. which is $4 per Watt. An IFR would be at least double, maybe triple that so $8 - $12 billion not including development...
Andrew Mason what is your source for this cost (at least the conventional plant)? I am just interested.
 
  • #56
mheslep said:
Andrew Mason what is your source for this cost (at least the conventional plant)? I am just interested.

Curious about that aswell, especialy the IFR estimate. The russians claim they can build BN fast reactors for only 25% higher capital costs than LWR's. Saying a IFR would cost tripple a LWR makes no sense. The acctual reactor is a small part of the total power plant costs.

From "Economic potential of modular reactor nuclear power plants based on the Chinese HTR-PM project", Nuclear Engineering and Design 237 (2007) 2265–2274

The total costs of all the PWR plant
are normalized to 100. Among them, reactor plant equipments
account for about 23–28%
, depending on ways of delivery. Turbine
plant equipments take up about 12% and BOP is about 3%.
These are so called direct costs. Other costs include the costs for
design, engineering service, project management and financial
costs, etc.

Considering the total costs of the above-classified reactor
plant equipments, the costs of the RPV and the reactor internals
account for about 9%, the reactor auxiliary systems for about
23% and the I&C and electrical systems for about 26%. Thus,
the costs of RPV and reactor internals, compared to the total
plant cost will be about 9%×23% = 2%. This shows clearly
that the RPV and the reactor internals of PWR-plants exhibit
only a very limited influence on the total plant cost.

Since turbines, electrical system etc would be more or less the same in a IFR I don't se how the reactor itself could tripple or even come close to dubbling the power plant costs.
 
  • #57
Andrew Mason said:
Good point. If you were to use solar electricity to produce hydrogen by electrolysis (for use in cars, say) an average supply works just fine.

That is correct. I never said that solar (or wind for that matter) have no use, on the contrary. But when the main goal is to have fossil-free electricity production, then my claim is that as of now, technologically it is difficult to conceive how these techniques are going to be the major player if we want to keep things economical to a reasonable extend. This is where nuclear has a unique "ecological niche" for the moment. All this can change the day that we have cheap, reliable batteries of some kind.

If you would use lead batteries to make a totally reliable system, let's make a small estimate.
A 100 Ahr 12V deep cycle battery costs about $100,- and lives for about 4-5 years.
Now, that's about 1KWhr of storage. Imagine you have a 1KW average system, then you'd need about 12 batteries (12 hours light, 12 hours darkness) to average this out. On 30 years lifetime, you'd need to replace them at least 6 times, so that's 72 of these batteries, or $7200,-. That adds $7.2 per average watt, just to smoothen out the day/night cycle.
We didn't yet include the cloudy week/sunny week problem or the summer/winter problem.

The capital cost of the IFR must be huge on a per watt basis. A 1 GW conventional nuclear plant will run about $4 billion. which is $4 per Watt. An IFR would be at least double, maybe triple that so $8 - $12 billion not including development costs.

I don't see why an IFR, once it is produced on large scale, should be significantly more expensive than a classical PWR. The main material effort in a classical PWR goes into the confinement building - I suppose, although I don't have sources, that it is also a serious part of the cost. The other part, the pressure vessel of a PWR, is actually heavier and more difficult to make than the reactor vessel of an IFR which doesn't work under 150 bars of pressure. Of course, an IFR will have sodium-related piping and pumping and so on, this will then make it somewhat more expensive, but I would guess that this would be a small effect on the overall effect of the reactor. Concerning the pyroprocessing part, this will cost something, but that is then offset by the fact that you don't need much transportation, nor that you need enrichment. Also, the waste is less long-lived and smaller in amount (volume), so this will reduce the costs at the backend.

So I would think that the bulk will cost about the same, that some things are a bit more expensive, and that other things are less expensive. I don't see why this should be so much more expensive in the end.

While an IFR if very efficient, it does use fuel and has a significant operating cost. Accepting that my figures for cost may be out by a factor of 6, that puts solar at today's prices about $12/watt. So it I appears to me that solar would be competitive. A big advantage of solar would be the speed at which it could be implemented.


Your factor of 6 is the peak/yearly average (and including already a serious cost cut). If we want to have winter average, that adds a factor of 3, and if you include batteries, that adds $7,-. So we are around $40,- per installed watt for a reliable solar system which has *about equivalent functionality* as a reactor or a coal fired plant.

Solar is nice, but it will remain for some time in niche applications.
 
  • #58
vanesch said:
...If you would use lead batteries to make a totally reliable system, let's make a small estimate.
A 100 Ahr 12V deep cycle battery costs about $100,- and lives for about 4-5 years.
Now, that's about 1KWhr of storage. Imagine you have a 1KW average system, then you'd need about 12 batteries (12 hours light, 12 hours darkness) to average this out. On 30 years lifetime, you'd need to replace them at least 6 times, so that's 72 of these batteries, or $7200,-. That adds $7.2 per average watt, just to smoothen out the day/night cycle.
.
Better to calculate in energy terms as the power cost would indicate up front costs, and for up front one would only pay for one set of batteries at a time. In energy terms this example is about 6c/kWhr: 21900 kWhrs over 5 years for $1358 ($1200,5%, 5years). Actual grid based battery systems (flow batteries,etc) appear to cost about http://www.leonardo-energy.org/drupal/node/959" r but I expect they would last 10 years with temperature controls. Such a system would then cost ~16c/kWhr
 
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  • #59
mheslep said:
Andrew Mason what is your source for this cost (at least the conventional plant)? I am just interested.
The Bruce Power study for Saskatchewan was just released last week. Bruce Power is a private company that owns and operates nuclear plants in Ontario and New Brunswick. It was asked by the Government of Saskatchewan to do a preliminary assessment of the feasibility of adding 2.2 GW of nuclear power in Saskatchewan. Their http://www.brucepower.com/uc/GetDocument.aspx?docid=2771" .

In their report, they concluded (p. 15) that a two unit facility comprising two 1.085 GW Candu ACR-1000s (PTR), 2 1 GW Westinghouse AP1000s (PWR) or two 1.6 GW Areva EPR (PWR) reactors would cost $8 - $10 billion. This does not include the infrastructure needed to distribute the power to markets.

AM
 
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  • #60
Andrew Mason said:
The Bruce Power study for Saskatchewan was just released last week. Bruce Power is a private company that owns and operates nuclear plants in Ontario and New Brunswick. It was asked by the Government of Saskatchewan to do a preliminary assessment of the feasibility of adding 2.2 GW of nuclear power in Saskatchewan. Their http://www.brucepower.com/uc/GetDocument.aspx?docid=2771" .

In their report, they concluded (p. 15) that a two unit facility comprising two 1.085 GW Candu ACR-1000s (PTR), 2 1 GW Westinghouse AP1000s (PWR) or two 1.6 GW Areva EPR (PWR) reactors would cost $8 - $10 billion. This does not include the infrastructure needed to distribute the power to markets.

AM
Interesting breakdown page 15: 200,000 cubic meters concrete, 10,000 tons steel per reactor. Some time ago Vanesch and I estimated 70,000 cubic meters concrete, 29,000 tons steel for the EPR, in a comparison of materials costs between wind and nuclear for equivalent power (wind requires a lot more steel than nuclear). We only estimated the reactor plant, so I can see how we were light on concrete, but I don't see how we could have been heavy on the steel for the pressure vessel and containment building.
https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=1729108&postcount=242
 
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  • #61
mheslep said:
Interesting breakdown page 15: 200,000 cubic meters concrete, 10,000 tons steel per reactor. Some time ago Vanesch and I estimated 70,000 cubic meters concrete, 29,000 tons steel for the EPR, in a comparison of materials costs between wind and nuclear for equivalent power (wind requires a lot more steel than nuclear). We only estimated the reactor plant, so I can see how we were light on concrete, but I don't see how we could have been heavy on the steel for the pressure vessel and containment building.
https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=1729108&postcount=242

I think that in fact not all concrete has rebar steel in it. I have to say that I'm more puzzled by the large amount of concrete here: where do they put it ?? I wonder if they didn't confuse cubic meters and tonnes...

BTW, there is a funny typo in that document elsewhere where they say that the AP-1000 (a PWR) can run on enriched or natural uranium :smile:
 
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  • #62
vanesch said:
I think that in fact not all concrete has rebar steel in it. I have to say that I'm more puzzled by the large amount of concrete here: where do they put it ?? I wonder if they didn't confuse cubic meters and tonnes...
The concrete supports and fills the volume between the rebar. :biggrin: The EPR has a double containment. The external structure will have a higher density of rebar, and internal structures less so. The external structures much survive impact loads, while internal structures provide support primarily, and both must be designed for appropriate seismic loads.

BTW, there is a funny typo in that document elsewhere where they say that the AP-1000 (a PWR) can run on enriched or natural uranium :smile:
Presumably, the AP-1000 fueled with natural U would be a PHWR. That's feasible.


The actual cost of the plant will fluctuate with the costs of materials and labor.

The economics of Russia and China are different from the US, Canada and Europe.


One thing to consider in an IFR plant is the reprocessing facility, which is not found at a conventional NPP. Back in the early days of the commercial nuclear industry, it was invisioned that typical LWRs would operate on annual cycles with reloads of about 1/3 of the core (some used reloads of 1/4 core) - so an entire core's worth of fuel would be used every 3 to 4 years - and the fuel would be reprocessed so that MOX fuel would be used. Alternatively, the fuel could be reprocessed and the MOX fuel used in a fast reactor, and possibly the Pu produced in the breeder would be used in MOX fuel in LWRs. Well all that changed - reprocessing was abandoned and all that spent fuel began accumulating.

To reduce usage, plants have gone to longer cycles 18-24 mo, and many now reload about 45-50% of the core. Burnups are on the order of 4-5% FIMA (40-50 GWd/tU) on a batch average basis, with local burnups pushing 6-6.5% FIMA (~60-65 GWd/tU).
 
  • #63
The South African reactors projects in play with either Areva or Westinghouse are dead for now.

JOHANNESBURG -- South Africa's state power company, which has been forced to ration electricity to mines and smelters, Friday shelved plans to build the country's second nuclear power station, saying it can't afford to make the investment...
The utility had been expected to make a decision by the end of the year between two 1,650-megawatt reactors proposed by a consortium led by French nuclear-engineering giant Areva SA and three 1,140-megawatt reactors to be built by a group led by Toshiba Corp.'s Westinghouse.
http://online.wsj.com/articl/SB122868998183686411.html

and the Flamanville EPR project announced its price going up 20%, delayed a year.
http://www.reuters.com/article/rbssIndustryMaterialsUtilitiesNews/idUSB29884120081202
 
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  • #64
South Africa's state power company, which has been forced to ration electricity to mines and smelters,
Interesting. This evening, I was talking with a former classmate, who is involved with independent power supply systems. We discussed the potential in Africa, and he mentioned that various mines and plants in S. Africa are royal pissed at ESKOM. Apparently the companies are looking a building their own independent power supplies.

Both EPRs, TVO-3 and now Flamanville, are delayed. NPPs are big capital projects, and the new ones are supposed to take about 5 yrs (60 months) to build.
 
  • #65
Andrew Mason said:
Good point. If you were to use solar electricity to produce hydrogen by electrolysis (for use in cars, say) an average supply works just fine.


The capital cost of the IFR must be huge on a per watt basis. A 1 GW conventional nuclear plant will run about $4 billion. which is $4 per Watt. An IFR would be at least double, maybe triple that so $8 - $12 billion not including development costs. While an IFR if very efficient, it does use fuel and has a significant operating cost. Accepting that my figures for cost may be out by a factor of 6, that puts solar at today's prices about $12/watt. So it I appears to me that solar would be competitive. A big advantage of solar would be the speed at which it could be implemented.


AM

The estimated cost for a one-GW(e) IFR, if they are mass produced, is $1.5 to $2.0 billion. IFRs do not require huge cooling water reservoirs or cooling towers. A modest water supply would be required if steam is to be the operating fluid. If supercritical gas is used as the operating fluid, then water would only be required for sanitation and pyroprocessing purposes. An IFR is fueled only once - when it is built. An IFR creates only 1,700 POUNDS of waste per year that will be "safe in 300 to 400 years as opposed to 17,000 TONS of waste per year for a PWR or LWR that will be safe in 10,000 to 200,000 years. The LWR and PWR must be refuled every three to five years - a very costly maintenance item; no refueling required for the IFR. Fuel for the LWR and PWR must be trucked to the reactor and spent fuel trucked from the reactor. IFR fuel is reprocessed on site - a major safety consideration.
The IFR is 99.5% efficient; the PWR and LWR are typically 3% to 5% efficient.
You can calculate, manipulate, cogitate, and rationalize all you want, there currently is no cheaper, safer, more efficient way to reliably meet all energy needs of the U.S. on a 24/7 basis than the IFR. Suggest reading the whole thread.
 
  • #66
Astronuc said:
The concrete supports and fills the volume between the rebar. :biggrin: The EPR has a double containment. The external structure will have a higher density of rebar, and internal structures less so. The external structures much survive impact loads, while internal structures provide support primarily, and both must be designed for appropriate seismic loads.

Yes, but the calculation mheslep and I did was a geometry calculation of the primary grade kind: the volume of the double containment building walls, simplified as cylinders, with wall thickness of 1.3 meters (times two, for the two buildings).

I will retake it here (I even think we made a mistake back then):

cylinder of 55 meters high, 48 meters diameter:

Surface of wall: pi x 48 m x 55 m = 8289 m^2

Surface of bottom = surface of roof: pi * (48m/2)^2 = 1808 m^2

Total surface = 8289 m^2 + 2 x 1808 m^2 = 11907 m^2

That, times the double thickness of 2.6 m gives us a total wall volume of:
30957 m^3

So 31 000 m^3.

How do they come at 200 000 m^3 of concrete, which is almost 7 times more ??
 
  • #67
Astronuc said:
Presumably, the AP-1000 fueled with natural U would be a PHWR. That's feasible.

I think it was more a kind of typo, as they said that the CANDU needs to work on enriched U...
 
  • #68
vanesch said:
Yes, but the calculation mheslep and I did was a geometry calculation of the primary grade kind: the volume of the double containment building walls, simplified as cylinders, with wall thickness of 1.3 meters (times two, for the two buildings).

I will retake it here (I even think we made a mistake back then):

cylinder of 55 meters high, 48 meters diameter:

Surface of wall: pi x 48 m x 55 m = 8289 m^2

Surface of bottom = surface of roof: pi * (48m/2)^2 = 1808 m^2

Total surface = 8289 m^2 + 2 x 1808 m^2 = 11907 m^2

That, times the double thickness of 2.6 m gives us a total wall volume of:
30957 m^3

So 31 000 m^3.

How do they come at 200 000 m^3 of concrete, which is almost 7 times more ??


I don't know the details, but the source says 200,000 m3 concrete for a two unit plant. Your calc of the containment concrete neglects any internal walls & floors within the containment; perhaps more importantly it neglects the auxiliary building, the tubine building, the intake structures and or cooling towers, the switchyard, the maintenence and admin buildings, parking lots, security structures etc etc...
 
  • #69
vanesch said:
I think it was more a kind of typo, as they said that the CANDU needs to work on enriched U...
Not a typo. This Candu is designed to use lightly enriched uranium.

AM
 
  • #70
RobertW said:
The estimated cost for a one-GW(e) IFR, if they are mass produced, is $1.5 to $2.0 billion. ...
Source?
 
  • #71
vanesch said:
Yes, but the calculation mheslep and I did was a geometry calculation of the primary grade kind: the volume of the double containment building walls, simplified as cylinders, with wall thickness of 1.3 meters (times two, for the two buildings).

I will retake it here (I even think we made a mistake back then):

cylinder of 55 meters high, 48 meters diameter:

Surface of wall: pi x 48 m x 55 m = 8289 m^2

Surface of bottom = surface of roof: pi * (48m/2)^2 = 1808 m^2

Total surface = 8289 m^2 + 2 x 1808 m^2 = 11907 m^2

That, times the double thickness of 2.6 m gives us a total wall volume of:
30957 m^3

So 31 000 m^3.

How do they come at 200 000 m^3 of concrete, which is almost 7 times more ??
I assumed balance of plant might explain that - large areas of foundation and slab, though that's all relatively low strength concrete and doesn't require much steel reinforcement or rigorous inspection and regulation.
 
  • #72
gmax137 said:
I don't know the details, but the source says 200,000 m3 concrete for a two unit plant. Your calc of the containment concrete neglects any internal walls & floors within the containment; perhaps more importantly it neglects the auxiliary building, the tubine building, the intake structures and or cooling towers, the switchyard, the maintenence and admin buildings, parking lots, security structures etc etc...

Well, what makes the confinement building so important is the wall thickness. A cooling tower, although it is often bigger than the reactor building, uses in fact much less concrete. The largest cooling tower in the world (for a coal fired plant in Germany) is 200m high and 100 m diameter, with a wall thickness of about 0.2 m. If we make the approximation of a cylinder, then this corresponds to 200m x 3.14 x 100 m x 0.2 m = 12 560 m^3. And that's the largest one that exists. So the largest cooling tower in the world uses about 3 times less concrete than the EPR confinement building.
 
  • #73
gmax137 said:
I don't know the details, but the source says 200,000 m3 concrete for a two unit plant. ...
The BrucePower source says 400,000 cubic meters of concrete for a two unit plant; I optimistically called it 200k for one.
 
  • #75
mheslep said:
Source?

D.O.E. - about 14 years estimated the cost of a sodium-cooled 1GW(e) IFR to be $985 million. Add cost of pyroprocessing cell and inflation = about $1.5 to $2 billion. Assumes IFRs are built in quantity like tract houses. Under this assumption, some of the reactor structure can be pre-cast and trucked to the construction site. Google the "STAR" and "STAR-LM" reactors for more cost info on this type of reactor construction.
 
  • #76
RobertW said:
D.O.E. - about 14 years estimated the cost of a sodium-cooled 1GW(e) IFR to be $985 million. ...
An estimate that precise must be linkable somewhere at DOE? Googling at DOE gives me nothing.
 
  • #77
mheslep said:
An estimate that precise must be linkable somewhere at DOE? Googling at DOE gives me nothing.

I obtained the following by Googling "STAR-LM REACTOR:
Supercritical CO2Brayton Cycle Control Strategy for Autonomous Liquid Metal-Cooled Reactors
http://www.osti.gov/bridge/servlets/purl/840371-mR3VlE/native/840371.pdf

STAR-LM Concept
http://www.ne.anl.gov/research/ardt/hlmr/index.html

POWER OPTIMIZATION IN THE STAR-LM MODULAR NATURAL CONVECTION REACTOR SYSTEM
http://www.ipd.anl.gov/anlpubs/2002/02/42316.pdf

Supercritical Steam Cycle for Lead Cooled Nuclear Systems
http://nuklear-server.ka.fzk.de/OFMS/Web%2FMain%2FPublications%2F2005%2FGLOBAL2005%2FP_C.Boehm_GLOBAL2005.pdf

Heavy Metal – Cooled Reactors: Pros and Cons
http://nucleartimes.jrc.nl/Doc/Global03final2.pdf

These will get you started. There are at least 100 papers and articles on the Secure, transportable, autonomous reactor (STAR). A STAR-LM is a liquid metal cooled fast reactor. If one were to triple or quadruple the size of of the STAR-LM and integrate a pyroprocessing cell with the reactor, one would have an IFR. There are numerous references at the end of the papers that can lead you to cost info done by someone. I don't have time to search for specific cost estimates. But you can be certain that the construction costs will be a fraction of the costs you are estimating for PWR, LWR, or PBMR reactors and the fuel costs will be about 2% or 3% of these older designs. The liquid metal ones are 99.5% efficient if the fuel is reprocessed in a co-located pyroprocessing cell. Also, the design life of the IFR can be extended to 60 years.
 
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  • #78
RobertW said:
But you can be certain that the construction costs will be a fraction of the costs you are estimating for PWR, LWR, or PBMR reactors and the fuel costs will be about 2% or 3% of these older designs. The liquid metal ones are 99.5% efficient if the fuel is reprocessed in a co-located pyroprocessing cell. Also, the design life of the IFR can be extended to 60 years.
Um - no! Based on industry and personal experience.
 
  • #79
RobertW said:
I obtained the following by Googling "STAR-LM REACTOR:
Supercritical CO2Brayton Cycle Control Strategy for Autonomous Liquid Metal-Cooled Reactors
http://www.osti.gov/bridge/servlets/purl/840371-mR3VlE/native/840371.pdf

STAR-LM Concept
http://www.ne.anl.gov/research/ardt/hlmr/index.html

POWER OPTIMIZATION IN THE STAR-LM MODULAR NATURAL CONVECTION REACTOR SYSTEM
http://www.ipd.anl.gov/anlpubs/2002/02/42316.pdf

Supercritical Steam Cycle for Lead Cooled Nuclear Systems
http://nuklear-server.ka.fzk.de/OFMS/Web%2FMain%2FPublications%2F2005%2FGLOBAL2005%2FP_C.Boehm_GLOBAL2005.pdf

Heavy Metal – Cooled Reactors: Pros and Cons
http://nucleartimes.jrc.nl/Doc/Global03final2.pdf

These will get you started. There are at least 100 papers and articles on the Secure, transportable, autonomous reactor (STAR). A STAR-LM is a liquid metal cooled fast reactor. If one were to triple or quadruple the size of of the STAR-LM and integrate a pyroprocessing cell with the reactor, one would have an IFR. There are numerous references at the end of the papers that can lead you to cost info done by someone. I don't have time to search for specific cost estimates.
Neither do I, and all of the links above appear to be architecture oriented and not informative regards cost; the reference papers are not are generally not publicly available. Therefore,
But you can be certain that the construction costs will be a fraction of the costs you are estimating for PWR, LWR, or PBMR reactors and the fuel costs will be about 2% or 3% of these older designs. ...
I am not certain of any cost information presented here.
 
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  • #80
Astronuc said:
Um - no! Based on industry and personal experience.

Why not?
 
  • #81
mheslep said:
Neither do I, and all of the links above appear to be architecture oriented and not informative regards cost; the reference papers are not are generally not publicly available. Therefore,
I am not certain of any cost information presented here.


Here is the URL - p. 83. This is where I found the cost estimates. The document was published in 2002.
http://gif.inel.gov/roadmap/pdfs/gen_iv_roadmap.pdf
Quite honestly, you cannot be certain about any of the info you find here. The only way you can be certain what it will cost to build an IFR is to build one - any other approach IS uncertain.
 
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  • #82
RobertW said:
...Heavy Metal – Cooled Reactors: Pros and Cons
http://nucleartimes.jrc.nl/Doc/Global03final2.pdf
In this source, some capital estimates are given (in reference to another source table I): $661.5/kW for a liquid metal reactor (SVBR), however it also cites in comparison $749.8/kW as the capital costs for a same size traditional PWR (VVER) and we know that is ridiculously low for a total cost, with Olkiluoto at $3,000/kW and the AP1000's in Florida quoted at $6,000/kW.
http://www2.tbo.com/content/2008/jan/15/bz-nuclear-costs-explode/
http://www.economist.com/business/displaystory.cfm?story_id=12724850
 
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  • #83
  • #84
RW you stated
RobertW said:
...But you can be certain that the construction costs will be a fraction of the costs you are estimating for PWR, LWR, or PBMR reactors and the fuel costs will be about 2% or 3% of these older designs. The liquid metal ones are 99.5% efficient if the fuel is reprocessed in a co-located pyroprocessing cell. Also, the design life of the IFR can be extended to 60 years.
- and Astronuc replied no, based on personal experience. In response you give this Argonne article:

RobertW said:
You say no, and these folk say yes - who is right?

http://skirsch.com/politics/globalwarming/ifrBerkeley.htm

An Introduction to Argonne National Laboratory's INTEGRAL FAST REACTOR (IFR) PROGRAM
and though it suggests IFRs would be more economic than existing reactors, it says very little to none at all to support the assertions you made above about 'fractional' and '2 or 3%' fuel costs.
 
  • #85
RobertW said:
Why not?
Because if one sizes and IFR to 1 GWe, it's going to take about the same amount of material (and labor) as a 1 GWe LWR. One still needs a containment structure - and one is going to throw in steam generators and a turbine/generator set - and cooling systems because one still uses a steam (Rankine) cycle.

On top of that, one will include a pyroprocessing center and fuel fabrication site if one is planning to reuse the spent fuel. That is not a trivial matter, especially if one is recycling metric ton levels. What has been done at INL is not anywhere near a commercial scale.

Also bear in mind that EBR-II was a small core/unit (~62 MWt/20 MWe) and FFTF was 400 MWt. Scaling to a ~3000 MWt IFR (~1 GWe) is not trivial.

I've seen one estimate that FFTF would cost $2-4 billion to build today, and that's probably an underestimate. FPL did an estimate earlier this year that put a twin EPR unit plant at about $12-14 billion. I think it was reported in the WSJ.

It’s the Economics, Stupid: Nuclear Power’s Bogeyman
http://blogs.wsj.com/environmentalc...the-economics-stupid-nuclear-powers-bogeyman/
new generation of nuclear power plants is on the drawing boards in the U.S., but the projected cost is causing some sticker shock: $5 billion to $12 billion a plant, double to quadruple earlier rough estimates. Part of the cost escalation is bad luck. Plants are being proposed in a period of skyrocketing costs for commodities such as cement, steel and copper; amid a growing shortage of skilled labor; and against the backdrop of a shrunken supplier network for the industry.
Fast reactors require specialty steels and those are alloys are quite expensive, not to mention that they have not been fabricated in the high tonnage quantities for large plants.

And given the materials problems (failures) I've seen (and been involved with) in the nuclear industry over the last 20+ years, I imagine there's still a lot of R&D to do on advanced reactor concepts.

Any IFR plant will have to get into the pipeline with all the other LWRs already ahead, so they are not going to pop up very quickly - if at all.
 
  • #86
Astronuc said:
...It’s the Economics, Stupid: Nuclear Power’s Bogeyman
http://blogs.wsj.com/environmentalc...the-economics-stupid-nuclear-powers-bogeyman/...
Thanks for this link. I saw the article when it came out, but missed the very good CBO article referenced therein.
http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/91xx/doc9133/Chapter2.5.1.shtml#1090614

CBO said:
CBO’s assumption about the cost of building new nuclear power plants in the United States is particularly uncertain because of the industry’s history of construction cost overruns. For the 75 nuclear power plants built in the United States between 1966 and 1986, the average actual cost of construction exceeded the initial estimates by over 200 percent (see Table 2-1). Although no new nuclear power plants were proposed after the partial core meltdown at Three Mile Island in 1979, utilities attempted to complete more than 40 nuclear power projects already under way. For those plants, construction cost overruns exceeded 250 percent.3
The worst case period before 3 Mi Island was 1974 to 1975, with 14 plants underway. Industry average estimate: $1,263/kW, actual $4,817/kW (281%)
 
  • #87
Here's a better link to the CBO report

Nuclear Power's Role in Generating Electricity
http://www.cbo.gov/doc.cfm?index=9133

One can download a pdf as opposed to the html. If one knows the 4-digit index number, one can use the doc.cfm?index to find the download page for a report.

Besides the increased cost of steel and concrete (which cost a little more for NPPs because they must be nuclear grade and certified to higher quality standards than non-nuclear facilities), there is a shortage of qualified craftsmen who can work at NPP's.


The cost overruns on the plants being construct during the late 70's and the early 80's reflect the redesigns and modifications that were imposed as a result of the fire at Browns Ferry 1 (March, 1975) and the TMI-2 failure (1979). The NSSS vendors, AE and construction contractors had to fix design deficiencies that had contributed to both accidents. And then there were big screw ups at several of the plants on top of that. And for some plants, intervenors caused delays which ran up the legal bills and interest payments. On the other hand, the intervenors wouldn't have had much of case if the industry hadn't been so sloppy.

The industry is a lot better than it used to be, and some utilities/AE's are much better than others. Still, I imagine that in some new plants, there will be costly screw ups.
 
  • #88
mheslep said:
RW you stated - and Astronuc replied no, based on personal experience. In response you give this Argonne article:

and though it suggests IFRs would be more economic than existing reactors, it says very little to none at all to support the assertions you made above about 'fractional' and '2 or 3%' fuel costs.

Let's be clear about the cost of nuclear fuel - the real costs of an open fuel cycle. The real costs of an open nuclear fuel cycle include the mining and processing of uranium, the conversion of uranium into reactor fuel, the transportation costs of the fuel to and spent fuel from reactor sites, the reprocessing costs if the fuel is MOXed, the encapsulation of unuseable nuclear waste, and the storage of unuseable nuclear waste for 10,000 years or more. Now, how many of these costs could be eliminated or nearly eliminated by using an IFR with a closed fuel cycle? I can't prove my estimate is correct and you can't prove it is wrong - neither of us have sufficient emperical data. However, the IFR closed fuel cycle, from a simple economics point of view, should greatly reduce the real costs of nuclear fuel.
 
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  • #89
Astronuc said:
Because if one sizes and IFR to 1 GWe, it's going to take about the same amount of material (and labor) as a 1 GWe LWR. One still needs a containment structure - and one is going to throw in steam generators and a turbine/generator set - and cooling systems because one still uses a steam (Rankine) cycle.

On top of that, one will include a pyroprocessing center and fuel fabrication site if one is planning to reuse the spent fuel. That is not a trivial matter, especially if one is recycling metric ton levels. What has been done at INL is not anywhere near a commercial scale.

Also bear in mind that EBR-II was a small core/unit (~62 MWt/20 MWe) and FFTF was 400 MWt. Scaling to a ~3000 MWt IFR (~1 GWe) is not trivial.

I've seen one estimate that FFTF would cost $2-4 billion to build today, and that's probably an underestimate. FPL did an estimate earlier this year that put a twin EPR unit plant at about $12-14 billion. I think it was reported in the WSJ.

It’s the Economics, Stupid: Nuclear Power’s Bogeyman
http://blogs.wsj.com/environmentalc...the-economics-stupid-nuclear-powers-bogeyman/
Fast reactors require specialty steels and those are alloys are quite expensive, not to mention that they have not been fabricated in the high tonnage quantities for large plants.

And given the materials problems (failures) I've seen (and been involved with) in the nuclear industry over the last 20+ years, I imagine there's still a lot of R&D to do on advanced reactor concepts.

Any IFR plant will have to get into the pipeline with all the other LWRs already ahead, so they are not going to pop up very quickly - if at all.

I enjoyed the "It’s the Economics, Stupid: Nuclear Power’s Bogeyman" article, but I believe the author's views to be myopic. There is more to consider than the cost increase of nuclear reactors. What about the cost of national security, the economic future of the U.S., and the alternative uses of nuclear energy. Boone Pickens estimated that the U.S. would pay $700 billion for foreign oil if oil stayed at $150 per barrel. Let's assume that oil will settle at about $50 per barrel for the next year or two, and then start to increase again - oil consumption is increasing exponentially and there is a corresponding decrease in supply - the price will go up. If oil is at $50 per barrel, that means that the U.S. will pay about $230 billion per year for foreign oil - using Pickens' figures. The cost of oil is passed on to consumers; this cost has the same effect as a tax on consumers and is a serious drag on our economy. Now assume that 12 one-GW(e) reactors (Brayton Cycle IFRs of course) are built in the shale fields of the west-central U.S. It is estimated that there are one trillion barrels of oil locked in shale in this portion of the U.S. Let's assume further that the electricity produced by these reactors is used to heat the oil shale in the manner described in the Shell in situ conversion process - see: http://www.shell.us/home/content/usa/aboutshell/shell_businesses/upstream/locations_projects/onshore/mahogany/mrp_technology.html

The heat produced by these 12 reactors could yield 10 to 12 million barrels of shale oil per day at a cost of about $20 to $25 per barrel if the government provided the reactors. If shale oil is extracted at a cost of $25 per barrel and oil is selling on the open market at $50 per barrel, that would save the U.S. about $115 billion per year. If the reactors each cost $20 billion, they would pay for themselves in about six years (the shale has to be heated for 3 to 4 years before it produces oil and natural gas). The savings would continue for as many years as the U.S. imports this amount of oil. If the cost of oil goes up, the amount of savings will increase. Nuclear power cannot replace gas in cars, but nuclear power can help put gasoline in cars.

I believe the rapid rise in reactor costs is due to an increase in the perceived risk associated with building nuclear power plants in the U.S. Some of the increased risk is prompted by the general public's fear of nuclear power and their associated reactions to nuclear power plants. Our concern about the cost of nuclear energy should be balanced against the consequences of not developing more nuclear power. In the future, I believe it will not be the cost of labor that determines which country is dominant in the world. Rather, the country that will dominate in the world will be the country that can furnish all of its energy needs at the lowest possible cost.
 
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  • #90
RobertW said:
Let's be clear about the cost of nuclear fuel - the real costs of an open fuel cycle. The real costs of an open nuclear fuel cycle include the mining and processing of uranium, the conversion of uranium into reactor fuel, the transportation costs of the fuel to and spent fuel from reactor sites, the reprocessing costs if the fuel is MOXed, the encapsulation of unuseable nuclear waste, and the storage of unuseable nuclear waste for 10,000 years or more. Now, how many of these costs could be eliminated or nearly eliminated by using an IFR with a closed fuel cycle? I can't prove my estimate is correct and you can't prove it is wrong - neither of us have sufficient emperical data. However, the IFR closed fuel cycle, from a simple economics point of view, should greatly reduce the real costs of nuclear fuel.
These are all very valid points. However, the economic advantages of the IFR will be realized only when competing with plants using once-through fuel. If the world were to eventually replace its nuclear plants with IFRs, the demand for new U fuel would drop dramatically. This would result in the price of U going down to a level that would make all but the richest deposits economic to mine.

A few hundred miles north of where I live is the world's richest uranium deposit at MacArthur River, Saskatchewan. It is 24% U. Every load of ore that is hauled to the mill is worth about half a million dollars. This single deposit could supply the world with Uranium to generate all of the world's electricity for several hundred years if all of the world's electricity were produced by IFR's.

AM
 
  • #91
Andrew Mason said:
These are all very valid points. However, the economic advantages of the IFR will be realized only when competing with plants using once-through fuel. If the world were to eventually replace its nuclear plants with IFRs, the demand for new U fuel would drop dramatically. This would result in the price of U going down to a level that would make all but the richest deposits economic to mine.

A few hundred miles north of where I live is the world's richest uranium deposit at MacArthur River, Saskatchewan. It is 24% U. Every load of ore that is hauled to the mill is worth about half a million dollars. This single deposit could supply the world with Uranium to generate all of the world's electricity for several hundred years if all of the world's electricity were produced by IFR's.

AM

I would even add, there would be NO reason to mine any uranium anymore for a few thousands of years. The actual "waste" and depleted uranium that we already have are largely sufficient. Switching to IFR style reactors would put an end to uranium mining for power purposes.
 
  • #92
RobertW said:
... Now assume that 12 one-GW(e) reactors (Brayton Cycle IFRs of course) are built in the shale fields of the west-central U.S. It is estimated that there are one trillion barrels of oil locked in shale in this portion of the U.S. Let's assume further that the electricity produced by these reactors is used to heat the oil shale in the manner described in the Shell in situ conversion process - see: http://www.shell.us/home/content/usa/aboutshell/shell_businesses/upstream/locations_projects/onshore/mahogany/mrp_technology.html

The heat produced by these 12 reactors could yield 10 to 12 million barrels of shale oil per day at a cost of about $20 to $25 per barrel if the government provided the reactors. If shale oil is extracted at a cost of $25 per barrel and oil is selling on the open market at $50 per barrel, that would save the U.S. about $115 billion per year. If the reactors each cost $20 billion, they would pay for themselves in about six years (the shale has to be heated for 3 to 4 years before it produces oil and natural gas). The savings would continue for as many years as the U.S. imports this amount of oil. If the cost of oil goes up, the amount of savings will increase. Nuclear power cannot replace gas in cars, but nuclear power can help put gasoline in cars. .
That's a fair idea for nuclear use, but I would favor concentrated solar thermal (i.e. power towers) over nuclear to process shale oil, at least up to the mid latitudes of the US. Its a little cheaper than nuclear at $3,300/kW(e) installed, and solar is a perfect match for a task like shale oil processing where short term variability of the source doesn't matter. When a renewable is in the same cost ball park as nuclear, I'm always going to favor renewable given nuclear proliferation issues.
http://www.nrel.gov/csp/pdfs/35060.pdf (page ES-4, trough costs)
 
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  • #93
Just announced US energy chief and nobel laureate Steven Chu on fast reactors this past year in a public talk:
...There is a possibility for greatly reducing the waste of nuclear fission by having a small fraction, about 20-25% of the fission reactors use a fast spectrum – high energy neutrons, and what that does is it burns down the long lived waste to much shorter lived waste and it also converts some of the fuel, which can be used. That technology is not deployable today. The generation of nuclear reactors that are now being designed are much, much safer than old, but that new technology - the fast neutrons - is less safe...
starting at 1:36


in the same talk:
...Nuclear won't be a major factor no matter what, because of the money issue. ...
Its about 20% in the US, it will go down I think...
 
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  • #94
mheslep said:
Just announced US energy chief and nobel laureate Steven Chu on fast reactors this past year in a public talk:

starting at 1:36


in the same talk:


I would love to hear Chu debate Dr. Charles Till (one of the inventors of the IFR) about the IFR - INL had everything working, they just wanted to tweak the pyroprocessing a bit. Yes, one has been built, but Clinton & Co. made them tear it down.
 
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  • #95
mheslep said:
When a renewable is in the same cost ball park as nuclear, I'm always going to favor renewable given nuclear proliferation issues.

I actually agree with you. That's why I find it also strange that people would consider nuclear plants in hot desert countries to do desalination of seawater...

Concerning Chu's interview, it is a pity that even a guy like this resorts to "well-known" urban legends about nuclear power. What on Earth would make him think that fast breeders *have to be* less safe than PWR ? He's right of course that that technology is not immediately commercially deployable, it will take still some prototyping and engineering which might take 10 years or so, before a commercial series can be designed. That was already the case in the 80-ies. One could have had such a series by 2000 if development had continued. Of course, as long as you don't DO it, it will remain 10 years. If we don't do it for 20 more years, in 2030, it will still be 10 years away of course.
 
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  • #96
mheslep said:
That's a fair idea for nuclear use, but I would favor concentrated solar thermal (i.e. power towers) over nuclear to process shale oil, at least up to the mid latitudes of the US. Its a little cheaper than nuclear at $3,300/kW(e) installed, and solar is a perfect match for a task like shale oil processing where short term variability of the source doesn't matter. When a renewable is in the same cost ball park as nuclear, I'm always going to favor renewable given nuclear proliferation issues.
Cost and uncertainty will always win out.

For shale oil processing, one would simply use the thermal energy (process heat) directly rather than generate electricity and use that for energy, or perhaps there would be a hybrid system, using both process heat and electricity generated. The deciding factor would be most efficient way to get heat to where it would be used in the shale formation.

The other factor to consider is the matter of keeping radioactive products out of the environment, and this matter is of critical importance in NPP design.

The disadvantage of solar is the daily cycle which impacts availability.
 
  • #97
According to Wikipedia, the IFR was shut down because of opposition to the program by Senator John Kerry (D, MA) and Hazel O'Leary. Since a base load IFR program would have eliminated the need for the Hot Fusion Program at MIT (Sort of the AC/DC debate 100 years ago), the most obvious beneficiaries of closing down the research would have been MIT. No other Senators tried as hard as Senator Kerry to shut down the program. Perhaps he was just protecting his constituents.
Astronuc said:
Certainly one single plant would be uneconomical because of all the R&D that goes into it.

The argument about proliferation is spurious, because weapon states can develop the technology, and non-weapon states could also if they are able to obtain the technology from countries other than the US.

Gore may have had more to do with undermining support for nuclear energy in the US than Clinton, but Clinton was certainly not supportive of nuclear. Hazel O'Leary was not a good choice for Sec of Energy. In fact, I was unimpressed by many in the Clinton cabinet, particularly those as SecEnergy.
 
  • #98
Here is a program idea I sent to every member of the Senate and 300 members of Congress. We can bridge to the Integral Fast Reactor with the new Westinghouse reactor. Here is how you make the IFR cost effective:

1)Site the reactor complex on the Hudson Bay,
2)Form the Canadian-American Corporation (CANAM). I envision a cooperative venture between the public and private sectors. CANAM does everything but build the plants. They buy the land, perhaps as much as 100 square miles along the Hudson Bay. They do the environmental impact statements over 20 years at a cost of perhaps $10 billion. They put in the railroads. They establish the transmission corridors. They build perhaps the first dozen light-water plants i.e. existing nuclear technology.

If the reactor complex is never approved, then the dozen or so plants can crack hydrogen with electrolysis, or more efficiently with high temperature gas cooled reactors. Then they serve as the respository for all toxic, biological and solid waste from Montreal, Canada, Chicago, New York and Boston. They will process 10,000-100,000 tons of solid waste/day. Waste goes in and the cheapest steel anywhere in the world (free oxygen), metal hydrides (solid hydrogen), ingots of glass, rolls of aluminum, sheets of plastic and various and sundry metals come out.

The project requires that all the treaties necessary for the project be worked out and get indemnity from any future legal challenges without a 2/3 vote of Congress.

CANAM recoups its investment by taxing the electricity and the worker's wages. The power companies just build power plants. If the reactor complex is approved it could generate 1,500-3,000 gigawatts of power.

Here are the cost savings of the project.

1)CANAM provides a stable economic environment---utilities need stability. They don't want or need another Shoreham,

2)Spread out over 1000 plants, the environmental impact statements would cost only $10 million/plant,

3)The Hudson Bay thermal sink permits once through cooling, the cheapest kind of cooling,

4)Standardized design---there are no separate designs for each plant as has been the case for nuclear power plants in this country.

5)Pre-fabricated construction. These smaller plants (300-500mW) are already predicted to be built in three years instead of the existing ten; seven years of extra power generation matters. Their components will be carried by rail,

6)A stable work force. Since this project would be operational for at least 100 years, we can predict that we would be able to approximate the assembly line approach by shuttling clusters of workers from construction site to construction site. They might work on as many as a dozen plants in any given year,

7)Elimination of the need for Yucca Mountain. The IFR can burn up all the radioactive wastes from existing light-water reactors; this would save about $100 billion,

8)The high temperature gas cooled reactors, in tandem can generate 50% more hydrogen than electrolysis by using a patented process involving copper and chlorine,

9)A "Ponzi" scheme to lure investors to come on board early; they get a cut of the action of every power plant built later in the complex,

10)Saving in line losses by perfecting high-temperature superconductivity over the next several decades,

11)Charging other utilities and other countries to dispose of their wastes from light-water reactors,

12)Since the reactor complex will serve as a sink for all special nuclear materials, the cost of the fuel should be inexpensive as the complex acquires, among other sources, all the plutonium left over from decommisssioned nuclear warheads,

13)The residual IFR radioactive wastes require sequestration in the 100's of years, not 10,000's of years. That waste can be enclosed in a silica gel and injected by hydrofracturing at great depth where it is allowed to die with practically no environmental effects.

Does anyone think that this project would be uneconomic?

RobertW said:
Relative to the other types of reactors in current use, IFRs of the EBRII design are the safest reactors in the world at this time. The Russians have had a fast neutron reactor in continuous operation on their power grid since 1981. The world has about 290 reactor-years of experience with fast neutron reactors. See:
http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/inf08.html

The IFR negative that comes to mind first is that the "fuel reprocessing cell" is costly. However, the cost of creating huge water reserviors for cooling light water reactors is also costly. Considering the safety advantage in not having to transport highly radioactive fuels on our highways and railroads, I believe the fuel reprocessing cell is worth its cost.

Another problem with metal-cooled reactors is that the liquid metals, particularly lead, used for cooling may cause problems with the piping used in the reactor. For example, liquid lead can leach some of the metal from the piping. I understand MIT has done research on the leaching problem with highly favorable results. MIT found that chromium and nickel alloys are very resistant to leaching.

I would like to know if you have found anything else WRONG with the IFR.
 
  • #99
sloughter said:
Here is a program idea I sent to every member of the Senate and 300 members of Congress. We can bridge to the Integral Fast Reactor with the new Westinghouse reactor. Here is how you make the IFR cost effective:
...

Send it to Sec. Chu and ask for stimulus grant. DOE has $4.29B of the supposedly urgently needed stimulus budget and so far has spent $46M, 1%.
http://www.recovery.gov/?q=content/agency-summary&agency_code=89
 
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  • #100
sloughter said:
Here is a program idea I sent to every member of the Senate and 300 members of Congress. We can bridge to the Integral Fast Reactor with the new Westinghouse reactor. Here is how you make the IFR cost effective:


2)Form the Canadian-American Corporation (CANAM). I envision a cooperative venture between the public and private sectors. CANAM does everything but build the plants. They buy the land, perhaps as much as 100 square miles along the Hudson Bay. They do the environmental impact statements over 20 years at a cost of perhaps $10 billion. They put in the railroads. They establish the transmission corridors. They build perhaps the first dozen light-water plants i.e. existing nuclear technology.

If the reactor complex is never approved, then the dozen or so plants can crack hydrogen with electrolysis, or more efficiently with high temperature gas cooled reactors. Then they serve as the respository for all toxic, biological and solid waste from Montreal, Canada, Chicago, New York and Boston. They will process 10,000-100,000 tons of solid waste/day. Waste goes in and the cheapest steel anywhere in the world (free oxygen), metal hydrides (solid hydrogen), ingots of glass, rolls of aluminum, sheets of plastic and various and sundry metals come out.

The project requires that all the treaties necessary for the project be worked out and get indemnity from any future legal challenges without a 2/3 vote of Congress.

CANAM recoups its investment by taxing the electricity and the worker's wages. The power companies just build power plants. If the reactor complex is approved it could generate 1,500-3,000 gigawatts of power.
In addition to approval of the US government, one also needs approval of the Canadian government.

Here are the cost savings of the project.
There is no indication of cost savings. There are claims without any technical or financial basis.

2)Spread out over 1000 plants, the environmental impact statements would cost only $10 million/plant,

3)The Hudson Bay thermal sink permits once through cooling, the cheapest kind of cooling,

4)Standardized design---there are no separate designs for each plant as has been the case for nuclear power plants in this country.

5)Pre-fabricated construction. These smaller plants (300-500mW) are already predicted to be built in three years instead of the existing ten; seven years of extra power generation matters. Their components will be carried by rail,

6)A stable work force. Since this project would be operational for at least 100 years, we can predict that we would be able to approximate the assembly line approach by shuttling clusters of workers from construction site to construction site. They might work on as many as a dozen plants in any given year,

7)Elimination of the need for Yucca Mountain. The IFR can burn up all the radioactive wastes from existing light-water reactors; this would save about $100 billion,

8)The high temperature gas cooled reactors, in tandem can generate 50% more hydrogen than electrolysis by using a patented process involving copper and chlorine,

9)A "Ponzi" scheme to lure investors to come on board early; they get a cut of the action of every power plant built later in the complex,

10)Saving in line losses by perfecting high-temperature superconductivity over the next several decades,

11)Charging other utilities and other countries to dispose of their wastes from light-water reactors,

12)Since the reactor complex will serve as a sink for all special nuclear materials, the cost of the fuel should be inexpensive as the complex acquires, among other sources, all the plutonium left over from decommisssioned nuclear warheads,

13)The residual IFR radioactive wastes require sequestration in the 100's of years, not 10,000's of years. That waste can be enclosed in a silica gel and injected by hydrofracturing at great depth where it is allowed to die with practically no environmental effects.

Does anyone think that this project would be uneconomic?
2.) 1,500-3,000 gigawatts / 1000 plants = 1.5-3 GW (1500 - 3000 MW) vs These smaller plants (300-500mW)? One means 300-500 MW/plant?

3.) What are the consequences of pouring 1000's GW of thermal energy into Hudson Bay.

4.) Standardization is fine.

5.) Westinghouse project 3.5 years for an AP-1000 plants. AREVA estimate 5 yrs (60 months) for construction of the EPR, but there are quality problems and delays at Flamanville-3 and Olkiluoto-3. Make sure contractors and labor are qualified.

6.) Sounds like a plan

7.) Still need a waste repository for the vitrified waste which encapsulates the various fission products: Rb, Sr, Y, Zr, Nb, Mo, Tc, Ru, Rh, Pd, Cs, Ba, La, Ce, Pr, Nd, Pm, Sm, Eu

8.) Hydrogen production currently assumes a S-I process. Please provide the US patent number for Cu-Cl process.

9.) Good luck with the "Ponzi" scheme. It sounds illegal.

10.) Don't count of superconducting transmission lines. Cooling the lines would be costly.

11.) Cost/benefit. Perhaps the countries will sell their spent fuel to whomever offers the best price.

12.) WG-Pu is already target for MOX in LWRs. I doubt the Russians will provide their WG-Pu to such a group. They have been uncooperative with the current program.

13.) Don't count on it.


One has not made a case for the economics.
 
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