Is a 30-Letter Password Really Necessary?

[interested_learner]

All of you have a happy international Pi day.

 

[Ki Man]

pi=3.13? may want to check those calculations again =]

 

[d_leet]

It's not pi day yet..

 

[dontdisturbmycircles]

woohoo, pi day is finally here! Can't wait til pi+0.01 day

 

[d_leet]

woohoo, pi day is finally here! Can't wait til pi+0.01 day

Another hour and a half for me..

 

[dontdisturbmycircles]

Lol, I feel your pain.

 

[mattmns]

Hmmmm, \pi

 

[neutrino]

I'd rather remember today as Einstein's birth anniversary, and wait till April 31st for pi-day.

 

[hypatia]

pi day again already? Just where has the year gone? I didn't even get my pi day shopping done.

 

[radou]

Are there e and i days, too?

 

[neutrino]

Are there e and i days, too?

e-day: 27th January
i-day: e^(i*pi/2) = 27th Jan^(i*31st April/2) =

 

[radou]

The only problem is, how to decide if it's celebrated at 3:14 am or 3:14 pm.

 

[neutrino]

The only problem is, how to decide if it's celebrated at 3:14 am or 3:14 pm.

3.14 is taken care of by the date. So you celebrate it at 1:59:26(.5) in the morning (or in the afternoon if you don't use a 24-hour clock).

 

[humanino]

The only problem is, how to decide if it's celebrated at 3:14 am or 3:14 pm.

I don't see it as a problem. We can precisely define pi's birth in this scheme, minutes second and everything, can't we ?

I mean :
month day hour minute sec...
3 14 15 9 27

now, maybe I see your objection
why not :
month day hour minute sec...
3 1 1 9 2
or :
month day hour minute sec...
3 14 1 59 27
...

indeed, I assumed that one fills as much decimal places as possible at each step. Thus for instance I took 9 minutes, because 92 minutes exceeds 60=1h... This might be a little simplistic, or even unesthetical. But eh, why not celebrating on the first of march otherwise ?

A more esthetical solution, would be to write down everything in a decimal basis.

 

[humanino]

3.14 is taken care of by the date. So you celebrate it at 1:59:26(.5) in the morning (or in the afternoon if you don't use a 24-hour clock).

I do use a 24-hour clock, but I would have thought we need to pick up 15:9:26

this is highly debatable...

 

[radou]

Now you see it indeed is a sophisticated issue, gentlemen.

 

[radou]

Oh yes, and there's another issue. In my country, we write the day first, and then the month, so we have no pi day! Which proves that the pi day is a those-who-write-the-month-first-o-centric product. Down with it!

 

[Math Is Hard]

Pi day at last! Can't wait to get up to campus at lunch time. Usually the math department sells yummy pie slices for a buck.

 

[neutrino]

Oh yes, and there's another issue. In my country, we write the day first, and then the month, so we have no pi day! Which proves that the pi day is a those-who-write-the-month-first-o-centric product. Down with it!

And that's why I said that I would rather wait will April 31st. This is strictly a US-centric Pi-day.

 

[MotolovCocktail]

I know the first 120 digits of pi:

3.14159265358979323846264338327950288419716939937510582097494459230781640628620899862803482534211706798214808651whew!

thats all I know off the top of my head.

 

[humanino]

thats all I know off the top of my head.

so, what is the accuracy with which you can calculate the circumference of the galaxy, supposing you know it's diameter with a precision equivalent to that of the size of the proton ?

 

[radou]

I know the first 120 digits of pi:

3.14159265358979323846264338327950288419716939937510582097494459230781640628620899862803482534211706798214808651


whew!

thats all I know off the top of my head.

Did you have a pi-digit-listing contest today?

 

[Physics is Phun]

haha, our math building had free pie for all starting at 1:59 this afternoon.
and you can also buy pi day t-shirts for pi^2 dollars ($9.87)

 

[radou]

and you can also buy pi day t-shirts for pi^2 dollars ($9.87)

Did someone actually buy one of these?

 

[SticksandStones]

Wow, 120 digits eh?
I know:
3.141592653597932384626

22 digits...

 

[MotolovCocktail]

so, what is the accuracy with which you can calculate the circumference of the galaxy, supposing you know it's diameter with a precision equivalent to that of the size of the proton ?

I don't really know the exact measurements of the galaxy, in fact nobody on Earth does. However, the galactic disk has been estimated to have a radius of 60,000 light years. Based on this figure, I would estimate the circumference to be around 360,000 light years. Or, if you want a more accurate figure (assuming pi = 3.14), it is somewhere between 376,800 - 378,000 light years.

Did you have a pi-digit-listing contest today?

No, unfortunately. In fact, even the math geeks in my class were unenthusiastic about it (probably because of social pressure ). But, even if we did at my school, I would have still owned them. Most people don't remember past 3.14, and most of the so-called math-wiz's in my school know only about 20 digits or so.

 

[dontdisturbmycircles]

memorizing pi isn't math.

There is no more use to memorizing pi than to memorizing a random number. Although the story of the calculation of pi is very interesting.

If the math 'whiz's' spent their time memorizing pi, they wouldn't have time to become good at math.

 

[mattmns]

One of my high school math teachers said he used to memorize pi (while a math grad student at UIUC) to impress his friends (I think he said that he knew a few hundred digits). I never understood why anyone would bother memorizing pi, I can't even think of the last time I used pi.

 

[dontdisturbmycircles]

My calculator knows pi to 10 digits, that's good enough for my uses. lol :)

I can sort of understand it, I mean, it is an important number.. But at the end of the day its probably better to memorize something that can be used. (other than to impress friends)

Definitely no more useful then memorizing any random number :P Its kind of odd that someone would think that a math student should know pi to more then 10 decimal places.

 

[MeJennifer]

My calculator knows pi to 10 digits, that's good enough for my uses. lol :)

I can sort of understand it, I mean, it is an important number.. But at the end of the day its probably better to memorize something that can be used. (other than to impress friends)

Definitely no more useful then memorizing any random number :P Its kind of odd that someone would think that a math student should know pi to more then 10 decimal places.

Well in principle you don't have to memorize it, afteral there is a formula that gives you the value of any particular digit of \pi.

 

[humanino]

My earlier point was the following : when I perform calculations, I have never been able to trust results after the 10th digit. We all work with finite accuracy machines and measurements anyway. So memorizing pi is just a game. Is it not funnier to memorize jokes, or novels, or ... more useful information ?

 

[MotolovCocktail]

My, my. Just because I know 120 digits of pi you automatically assume that I have no life. I don't spend a large amount of my time memorizing digits of pi.

I don't have any idea how your brains work, but for me, it does not take me a long time to memorize a large amount of information. It took me about 30 seconds to memorize the first 40 or so digits, and that was because I was bored one day. The rest of the 120 digits came over time.

And another thing is that I never forget. I can remember all the specific details about anything I have seen or done, even if several years have passed from that point in time.

And besides, why don't you want to be able to memorize hundreds of digits. Being able to memorize large amounts of data is a very useful skill, and one that I employ for the task of defending my computer systems from hackers and other malicious software. My security passwords for my computer are between 25-30 digits long (and no, it isn't digits of pi so don't even think about it), let's see if a hacker can get through that!

 

[dontdisturbmycircles]

Hey no, don't get me wrong. I definitely can't judge you on your first post and say you have no life...

No, unfortunately. In fact, even the math geeks in my class were unenthusiastic about it (probably because of social pressure ). But, even if we did at my school, I would have still owned them. Most people don't remember past 3.14, and most of the so-called math-wiz's in my school know only about 20 digits or so.

I was simply responding to this. You seem to think that the math 'geeks' should know pi to 20 digits and the fact that you do and they don't means something. Memorizing pi doesn't mean you have no life in my book, maybe you enjoy a challenge. But if you came up to me and said "what do you mean you don't have the first ten phone numbers in the phone book memorized, aren't you supposed to be good at math?" I'd laugh at you. Memorizing pi isn't math, . (I wouldn't call myself a math geek at all, but I am just trying to suggest a point).

Anyways, yea. Happy 'pi day' regardless :-)

PS - 30 digit passwords? Doesn't it look kinda funny when it takes you 10 seconds to type in your password? lol :)

 

[neutrino]

What's wrong with e? Why don't more people memorise the digits of e? Motolov, I think it's up to you, then.

 

[d_leet]

What's wrong with e? Why don't more people memorise the digits of e? Motolov, I think it's up to you, then.

I've pondered this as well, and at that I think the world record for memorizing digits of e is only about 700 or so digits which is rather pathetic compared to how many digits of pi people memorize.

 

[dontdisturbmycircles]

That is a good question. Maybe it has to do with how pi is introduced to much younger students? I have a feeling that a vast majority of people are familiar with pi (maybe just knowing that it has to do with the circle) whereas e is much more abstract in that it can't be tied to something that most people are familiar with, such as is the case with the circle. Whats the point in memorizing numbers if no one is going to understand what you are talking about.

 

[Gib Z]

Instead of memorizing digits of pi, why don't you just become very very good at arithmetic and work out the digits in your head :P?

BTW MeJennifer is alsolutely correct, The Borwein-Plouffe Algorithm would be quite helpful for this kind of purpose, even if you have to change bases >.<...

 

[SizarieldoR]

Is there a φ (phi) day?
I hope there is, because φ is my favourite number! :-)

 

[radou]

What's wrong with e? Why don't more people memorise the digits of e?

I agree! What's with e? You're going down, pi-fascists!

Btw, the whole pi-thing is always made voodoo, which is quite annoying.

 

[MotolovCocktail]

Hey no, don't get me wrong. I definitely can't judge you on your first post and say you have no life...



I was simply responding to this. You seem to think that the math 'geeks' should know pi to 20 digits and the fact that you do and they don't means something. Memorizing pi doesn't mean you have no life in my book, maybe you enjoy a challenge. But if you came up to me and said "what do you mean you don't have the first ten phone numbers in the phone book memorized, aren't you supposed to be good at math?" I'd laugh at you. Memorizing pi isn't math, . (I wouldn't call myself a math geek at all, but I am just trying to suggest a point).

Anyways, yea. Happy 'pi day' regardless :-)

PS - 30 digit passwords? Doesn't it look kinda funny when it takes you 10 seconds to type in your password? lol :)

All right, all right, I'm sorry if I acted a bit rash. I just take great pride in my abilities, that's all. And I know memorizing digits of pi isn't necessarily math, but it does help in that department. And about much earlier, I didn't mean for that comment to come out the way it did. I was just trying to answer his question and I let some of my ego show through (I'm also very good at math myself). I'm sorry if it offended anyone.

As for the 30 digit passwords, yeah, I do get some funny looks every now and then. And then sometimes I do get greeted with awe. But, what can I say, it is one of the strength's of being somewhat of an "autistic savant" if you know what I mean.



About e, I actually don't know any digits of that. To be honest, I find e quite annoying since I don't like logarithms in general. As for the popularity of pi, I would have to say it is due to the fact that it is the most common one that the general public has to deal with, as well as being one of the oldest ratios discovered. I do know some digits of the golden ratio (i.e. 1.618033988...) though. I do wonder why there isn't a day for that though, its been around since the time of the ancient Egyptians.

 

[radou]

About e, I actually don't know any digits of that. To be honest, I find e quite annoying since I don't like logarithms in general.

I never understood what's there "not to be liked" about logarithms. I'm pointing this out, since you're definitely not the first person I heard saying that. Quite interesting.

 

[MeJennifer]

Using passwords that are 30 digit long to defend against hackers is definitively overkill and borders on compulsive obsessive behaviour.

 

[MotolovCocktail]

It might be overkill, but I know for certain that my computer is secure :) .

 

[dontdisturbmycircles]

Cool. ;).

I count 60 different characters on a keyboard. Whats 60^{30} lol.Yea I would agree, your password is secure. (assuming you didn't use pseudopseudohypoparathyroidism)

 

[radou]

(assuming you didn't use pseudopseudohypoparathyroidism)

Huh?

 

[dontdisturbmycircles]

Lol, it happens to be the only 30 letter word. :) I assume that most 'brute force' programs would stick to dictionary words since just plain letters/numbers/symbols would cause the possibilities to almost be endless. Although even those programs may not try 30 letter words, haha.

edit: Actually giving this a bit more thought, a brute force type method wouldn't work for any application that I can think of. Since most passwords are for web pages which take lots of time to reload and some limit password retries to some small number. So the only way I can think of for a 'hacker' to gain a password is installing some software on your computer which would log what you type, in which case you are only inconveniencing yourself by having such long pw's. lol