News Is Obama fueling the Gate's incident?

[Office_Shredder]

Thing is that charges were dropped. So, the disorderly conduct charge seemed to be have been judged to be untenable or unwise to pursue by the police and/or DA themselves.

I think that they realize that disorderly conduct is vaguely defined and that gives the police a great deal of freedom to act. But they have to use that freedom wisely, otherwise they risk the law being changed if someone like Gates were charged and convicted and then that conviction were to be overturned on appeal.

What does a conviction being overturned on appeal have to do with changing the law?

The charges could have dropped because of:
1) Political pressure to drop the charges
2) The officer arrested Gates with the intention of the charges being dropped later. It would be a bit unusual to do that in this case, but it's not unheard of in general
3) They decided there wasn't enough evidence to indict him
4) They decided that there was no point in indicting him... judge would just let him off with a slap on the wrist anyway since he's apparently got an upstanding record as a citizen and it's a first time offense

 

[Evo]

Thing is that charges were dropped. So, the disorderly conduct charge seemed to be have been judged to be untenable or unwise to pursue by the police and/or DA themselves.

I think that they realize that disorderly conduct is vaguely defined and that gives the police a great deal of freedom to act. But they have to use that freedom wisely, otherwise they risk the law being changed if someone like Gates were charged and convicted and then that conviction were to be overturned on appeal.

I believe they dropped the charges because it not's worth pursuing. Gates more or less appears to have given the officer little choice. He was completely out of order by that time.

 

[Count Iblis]

What does a conviction being overturned on appeal have to do with changing the law?

The charges could have dropped because of:
1) Political pressure to drop the charges
2) The officer arrested Gates with the intention of the charges being dropped later. It would be a bit unusual to do that in this case, but it's not unheard of in general
3) They decided there wasn't enough evidence to indict him
4) They decided that there was no point in indicting him... judge would just let him off with a slap on the wrist anyway since he's apparently got an upstanding record as a citizen and it's a first time offense

Because if the conviction would have been based on a correct application of the law and the Supreme Court would rule that the result of that is an unacceptable violation of the First Amendment, the law would be ruled to be unconsitutional.

New Edit: A Law professor on CNN just told that there already is a precendent that the State Supreme Court had ruled on.The ruling was that this sort of an arrest is in violation of the First Amendment.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

Can you link to Gates' lawyer's statement (or did I miss it already posted?)? Thanks.

This is what I read:
http://www.theroot.com/views/lawyers-statement-arrest-henry-louis-gates-jr"

 

[berkeman]

This is what I read:
http://www.theroot.com/views/lawyers-statement-arrest-henry-louis-gates-jr"

Wow, no kidding one of them is lying! Let's see, LEOs can lose their job if they are caught lying on a report. What can scholars and their lawyers lose...?

Hopefully the statement about how it happened on the porch will be the thing that exposes whoever is lying. Lots of people (not just LEOs) apparently saw what happened outside, and the two accounts differ significantly.

 

[chemisttree]

While I am aware he was outside, I think it is important to note that that is irrelevant. Inside or outside, the crime is the same.

I'm no lawyer but http://blogs.findlaw.com/blotter/2009/07/the-henry-louis-gates-jr-arrest-and-disorderly-conduct.html"

Massachusetts bars disorderly conduct through Section 53 of Chapter 272 of its general laws, the chapter devoted to crimes against chastity, morality, decency and good order. Specifically, it states that:

"Common night walkers, common street walkers, both male and female, common railers and brawlers, persons who with offensive and disorderly acts or language accost or annoy persons of the opposite sex, lewd, wanton and lascivious persons in speech or behavior, idle and disorderly persons, disturbers of the peace, keepers of noisy and disorderly houses, and persons guilty of indecent exposure may be punished by imprisonment in a jail or house of correction for not more than six months, or by a fine of not more than two hundred dollars, or by both such fine and imprisonment."

With charges as nebulous as disorderly conduct, over time, courts refine what it means to violate the law. Certainly, there are many ways one can violate disorderly conduct restrictions. However, one requirement that Massachusetts courts have recognized is that the behavior must in some way be public.

 

[waht]

Obama invited Crowley and Gates for a beer in the White House, I hope they straighten things out, and learn from all this. After all we are just human, everyone makes mistakes in one way or another.

I wonder if the beer is to be paid by taxpayer's money, if it is I would make a toast to the country if I was Obama.

 

[Tibarn]

Obviously the attorney's statement will be phrased in such a way that it doesn't imply any wrongdoing on the part of his client. The cop writing a police report is also unlikely to include anything that could later be used to incriminate him. Cops can get in trouble for lying in a police report, but proving they intentionally lied is another story. They don't call it the Blue Wall of Silence for nothing. You'd be surprised at how often people slip and fall in the presence of police.

 

[Evo]

Obama invited Crowley and Gates for a beer in the White House, I hope they straighten things out, and learn from all this. After all we are just human, everyone makes mistakes in one way or another.

I wonder if the beer is to be paid by taxpayer's money, if it is I would make a toast to the country if I was Obama.

How nice for Crowley, two people that have said horrible, unfounded things about him. Obama should have invited Crowley alone to apologize to him. This is assinine. I'm really beginning to wonder where Obama's head is, unless he and Gates are both planning to publicly apologize to Crowley.

 

[berkeman]

I was thinking similarly. Is there some rule that says that a president can't say "Oops, I messed up on that one. Should have waited for the police report before commenting." I don't get that part. I think I get the other parts.

 

[Phrak]

This is a fairly easy read from the http://www.amnation.com/vfr/Police report on Gates arrest.PDF"

Thin-skinned http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~amciv/faculty/gates.shtml" , Director of the W. E. B. Du Bois Institute for African and African American Research at Harvard University, who believes his own lectures after years surrounded by yes-men (students), lashes out at police.

Crowley's Report: Gates was telling the person on the other end of the call that he was dealing with a racist police officer in his home.

"This is what happens to black men in America!," Gates Shouting, per Crowley's report.

After this, and continued verbal abuse Crowley has a bone to chew. He lures Gates to his own turf.

Crowley’s Report: I again told Gates that I would speak to him outside. My reason for wanting to leave the residence was that Gates was yelling very loud and the acoustics of the kitchen and foyer were making it difficult for me to transmit pertinent information to ECC or other responding units.

Does anyone believe this excuse?

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

I have no idea what happened inside that house, Russ. On one hand you have Henry Gates: Summa cum laude and Phi Beta Kappa graduate of Yale. MacArthur "genius grant" recipient. Acclaimed historian, Harvard professor and PBS documentarian. One of Time magazine's "25 Most Influential Americans" in 1997. Holder of 50 honorary degrees.

There are many people around here who are 'well to do' or rich or well educated and who have a tendency to give the police and security officers a hard time. They often seem to feel privledged and superior and act very much in the manner Gates was described as acting by Crowley when you bother them with things they don't feel like dealing with.
Around here most of these people are white and yes they often get arrested or cited for acting in such a manner even though they are white.
I deal with all sorts of people who give me a hard time and if they give me the opportunity to give them a real hard time back I do it. I do it because I want them to think twice about being ***holes to me or my coworkers in the future. Neither I, nor my coworkers, nor their neighbours deserve to deal with their disrespect.

Thing is that charges were dropped. So, the disorderly conduct charge seemed to be have been judged to be untenable or unwise to pursue by the police and/or DA themselves.

I think that they realize that disorderly conduct is vaguely defined and that gives the police a great deal of freedom to act. But they have to use that freedom wisely, otherwise they risk the law being changed if someone like Gates were charged and convicted and then that conviction were to be overturned on appeal.

Such minor charges are regularly dismissed. Usually the person is arrested because the officer was given no choice or because the officer knew that the person would be released and just wanted to teach them a lesson. Happens to teenagers all the time.

Because if the conviction would have been based on a correct application of the law and the Supreme Court would rule that the result of that is an unacceptable violation of the First Amendment, the law would be ruled to be unconsitutional.

New Edit: A Law professor on CNN just told that there already is a precendent that the State Supreme Court had ruled on.The ruling was that this sort of an arrest is in violation of the First Amendment.

BS. Every city I have ever worked in has had laws against disturbing the peace. If you stand in your yard yelling and screaming and refuse to stop at the direction of a police officer you will be arrested.
Here 'disturbing the peace' is close to this 'public misconduct' and probably used more often.

I'm no lawyer but http://blogs.findlaw.com/blotter/2009/07/the-henry-louis-gates-jr-arrest-and-disorderly-conduct.html"

The article there assumes that Gates was arrested for what happened inside the house. From everything I read he was not arrested until after he exited the house and carried on with his yelling in public view.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

After this, and continued verbal abuse Crowley has a bone to chew. He lures Gates to his own turf.

Crowley’s Report: I again told Gates that I would speak to him outside. My reason for wanting to leave the residence was that Gates was yelling very loud and the acoustics of the kitchen and foyer were making it difficult for me to transmit pertinent information to ECC or other responding units.

Does anyone believe this excuse?

Yes and no. Inside a house with a man yelling at me and traffic coming over the radio I would want to get outside aswell. The wording may make it seem like it was just an excuse but if you have ever written a report like this you would probably find yourself occasionally trying to come up with a professional and precise way of conveying an idea that is usually quite easy to say in a general conversational way. I've personally written similarly oddly worded things in my reports.

But yes, I believe that to some degree he was trying to get Gates outside so that he had more recourse to respond to Gates' actions.

 

[Phrak]

Yes and no. Inside a house with a man yelling at me and traffic coming over the radio I would want to get outside aswell. The wording may make it seem like it was just an excuse but if you have ever written a report like this you would probably find yourself occasionally trying to come up with a professional and precise way of conveying an idea that is usually quite easy to say in a general conversational way. I've personally written similarly oddly worded things in my reports.

Note that, as worded, the causative is placed after the action. As Cyrus has recently noted, this is a 'tell'. He's broken from the narrative format. We will do this when we attempt to justify actions, when we don't conciously know why we do what we do--and don't want to know. After suffering continual verbal abuse, I would be feeling the need for revenge.

But yes, I believe that to some degree he was trying to get Gates outside so that he had more recourse to respond to Gates' actions.

Are you a police officer?

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Note that, as worded, the causative is placed after the action. As Cyrus has recently noted, this is a 'tell'. He's broken from the narrative format. We do this when we attempt to justify actions, when we don't conciously know why we do what we do--and don't want to know. After suffering continual verbal abuse, I would be feeling the need for revenge.

Considering that Gates was more or less led outside it was really pertinent to the report that the officer give a reasoning for why he felt the necessity to go outside. It is necessary in a report for an officer to justify his actions. Even as it stands he could possible be accused of entrapment by telling Gates he would only talk with him if he came outside with him. It may seem much more suspicious than it really is. Admittedly it caught my eye as well when I read it and I certainly would not disagree that getting Gates outside was perhaps part of the motivation.

Are you a police officer?

No. Just a security guard.
If you're wondering about my knowledge of this sort of thing standard report writing is a mandatory part of training. When I worked at Brooks College the chief of our department was a retired cop who liked to hold us to a similar standard to the police and my training supervisor was a retired cop. I haven't been held to that same standard for a few years now but i still remember most of the basics.

 

[Phrak]

Considering that Gates was more or less led outside it was really pertinent to the report that the officer give a reasoning for why he felt the necessity to go outside. It is necessary in a report for an officer to justify his actions. Even as it stands he could possible be accused of entrapment by telling Gates he would only talk with him if he came outside with him. It may seem much more suspicious than it really is. Admittedly it caught my eye as well when I read it and I certainly would not disagree that getting Gates outside was perhaps part of the motivation.

It doesn't have to be concious. Just an action that takes him out of a position of weakness.

The next question is Obama. Who educated him. What is his indoctrination? What influence did Gates have?

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

The next question is Obama. Who educated him. What is his indoctrination? What influence did Gates have?

Gates is only ten years older than Obama. I think that they were just peers, not necessarily a student professor relationship.

I really don't get why people make such a big deal about the people that Obama associates with and their views on race. I personally have known and grown up with racists and I doubt any politician anywhere could claim that they have never associated with any racists.

 

[Hurkyl]

Wow, no kidding one of them is lying!

Not necessarily -- the two stories can fit together without requiring anyone to lie. (Or... are you considering omitting relevant information a kind of lying? In that case, yes, someone is definitely lying)

For example, that Gates thinks the officer never gave his name could very well be true if Gates only heard "Cambridge Police" after he first asked who the officer was, and after the second request, cut the officer off with a rant. (Crowley even claims he only began to give his name before Gates continued shouting)

 

[turbo]

Nowhere in Crowley's report does he claim that he properly identified himself to Gates as requested. It does not matter that he might have said his name - that holds no more water than if Gates had verbally identified himself without providing documentation. Crowley was required under Massachusetts state law to show Gates proper identification upon request. He did not do so, which is perhaps the only law that was broken during this entire encounter.

We confer a great deal of authority on the people that uphold our laws. In return, we expect them to act in a responsible manner and not abuse their authority to punish citizens that cross them. Gates was arrested, taken into custody and driven away in front of his neighbors, put through the booking procedure and held for 4 hours, after which he had to call a friend to come pick him up and drive him home. His offense appears to have been asking Crowley to identify himself.

http://ednews.org/articles/do-police-officers-have-to-identify-themselves.html

 

[Hans de Vries]

There are many people around here who are 'well to do' or rich or well educated and who have a tendency to give the police and security officers a hard time. They often seem to feel privledged and superior and act very much in the manner Gates was described as acting by Crowley when you bother them with things they don't feel like dealing with.
Around here most of these people are white and yes they often get arrested or cited for acting in such a manner even though they are white.
I deal with all sorts of people who give me a hard time and if they give me the opportunity to give them a real hard time back I do it. I do it because I want them to think twice about being ***holes to me or my coworkers in the future. Neither I, nor my coworkers, nor their neighbours deserve to deal with their disrespect.

This is exactly my feeling about what happened and I could sympathize with Crowley for
just wanting to teach Gates a simple lesson, after all Crowley placed himself in a dangerous
situations in order to protect Gates' property from burglars. (Something which Gates
missed entirely)

Crowley most likely didn't realize that the simple "lesson" would turn into a devastating
public humiliation for somebody who has worked his whole live for the dignity and respect
of black people.

http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~amciv/faculty/gates.shtml

Now he saw himself displayed as "yet another of them black criminals" for the
whole nation in handcuffs complete with mugshots. I do very much sympathize with
Obama for not being happy with this.

Nevertheless. I think something good can come out of this if they all "have a beer"
together in the white house. They are all people of good intentions who are, as we
all are, just human beings. Things happen but there is always second chance.Regards, Hans

 

[Count Iblis]

BS. Every city I have ever worked in has had laws against disturbing the peace. If you stand in your yard yelling and screaming and refuse to stop at the direction of a police officer you will be arrested.
Here 'disturbing the peace' is close to this 'public misconduct' and probably used more often.

According to the law Prof. this was not applicable in the Gates case because of the way the Massachusetts Supreme Court has constrained the requirements the "disorderly conduct" charge.

 

[Evo]

There are obvious reasons for Crowley to take it outside. Gates is raving and making accusations, going outside might encourage Gates to stop raving. Also, inside there are no witnesses. If Crowley is not breaking any rules, it is in his best interest to be in plain view of witnesses. Who knows what kind of things Gates would have made up if there were no witnesses. Crowley would not want to take it outside if he was doing anything wrong. The fact that he did indicates to me that he was doing nothing wrong.

 

[arildno]

Back in 2007, we had an incident here in Norway, dubbed the "Ali Farah case":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ali_Farah_case

It was a grave case concerning an ambulance crew that refused to take a Somali man with them after he'd gotten a head wound by a Ghanese in the Sofienberg park.

Based on the fact that Ali Farah subsequently were shown to have far worse injuries than the paramedics had thought, there was a huge outcry against racism in the paramedics.

This was actively fuelled by Ali Farah himself, and his girlfriend (daughter of a prominent Norwegian journalist), who lied through their teeth that the paramedics had left Ali lying on the ground.

Fortunately, a photograph turned up that clearly vindicated the paramedics' version, namely that he was fully able to walk when they left him.

They also had accurately judged him to be "high" after smoking cannabis, something blood tests had shown long ago, but brushed aside by the "Racist!"-screaming crowd before the damning photograph turned up.

 

[Hurkyl]

His offense appears to have been asking Crowley to identify himself.

I thought his offense appeared to be disorderly conduct. Or maybe being a black man in America, if you believe that version of the story.

 

[Hurkyl]

Now he saw himself displayed as "yet another of them black criminals" for the
whole nation in handcuffs complete with mugshots.

Whose fault is that? I mean that in all seriousness -- I highly doubt it was the Cambridge police department who decided to turn this into a national event.

 

[Hurkyl]

For what it's worth:

http://wbztv.com/local/Henry.Louis.Gates.2.1096348.html

A neighbor who claims he witnessed the incident told the Boston Herald Wednesday that Gates was screaming at police.​

http://www.boston.com/news/local/ma...ashpoint_gatess_neighbor_captured_the_moment/

Carter said Gates was “agitated’’ as police led him off to face a charge of disorderly conduct.​

http://wbztv.com/local/Henry.Louis.Gates.2.1094433.html

his attorney, fellow Harvard scholar Charles Ogletree
...
"Professor Gates asked why are you doing this – because I'm an African-American and you're a police officer? Please give me your information," Ogletree said.​

I'm sufficiently convinced that Gates was accusing the officer of racism during the incident. That Gates did lose his temper during the event also seems more plausible than the alternative. (but I am mildly skeptical of the first quote)

 

[arildno]

It is quite evident that the only bigot and racist in this case is..Henry Louis Gates himself.

 

[Count Iblis]

If you can't verbally engage a police officer (regardless whether the point you are making is rightly or wrong) you don't have freedom of speech in the US.

 

[Hurkyl]

If you can't verbally engage a police officer (regardless whether the point you are making is rightly or wrong) you don't have freedom of speech in the US.

The first amendment gives you the right to say whatever you want. It doesn't give you the right to yell it in my face.

 

[Evo]

I'm surprised Gates wasn't charged for the criminal offense of interfering with a police officer and/or obstruction of justice. There is no doubt that he was interfering with the officer doing his job.