Is YouTube Responsible For Creating Flat-Earth Believers?

[ZapperZ]

Please say it ain't so!

A researcher from Texas Tech University presented her findings at the recent AAAS Meeting, and found that most people started to believe in the Flat Earth idea after viewing YouTube videos!

Interviews with 30 attendees revealed a pattern in the stories people told about how they came to be convinced that the Earth was not a large round rock spinning through space but a large flat disc doing much the same thing.

Of the 30, all but one said they had not considered the Earth to be flat two years ago but changed their minds after watching videos promoting conspiracy theories on YouTube. “The only person who didn’t say this was there with his daughter and his son-in-law and they had seen it on YouTube and told him about it,” said Asheley Landrum, who led the research at Texas Tech University.

It is symptomatic of many things in this day and age. People use things they find on the 'net as their primary source of information (I'm looking at you, Wikipedia) without ever considering the validity, authenticity, or quality of the information that they are getting. I'm not saying one can't use or read these things. But one should not make one's mind with such certainty from these types of sources.

But I suppose that if you can fall that easily into believing that the Earth is flat simply by watching these YouTube videos, than you'll believe in anything.

Zz.

 

[BWV]

Wikipedia is a reliable encyclopedia with references to primary sources - no need to smear it

 

[ZapperZ]

Wikipedia is a reliable encyclopedia ...

Now that's funny, after I've documented errors in a number of entries.

Zz.

 

[BWV]

People need to be trained to do a better qualitative meta-analysis. I doubt that any of the physics jocks here could stand up to a good crank outside their field - say an Andrew Wakefield or Michael Behe. Similarly, the average person can’t cope with crank physics but they should be able to reason how highly improbable it would be for all of science to be wrong and some YouTuber to have the answer

 

[BWV]

Now that's funny, after I've documented errors in a number of entries.

Zz.

Studies have been done showing a lower error % than published encyclopedias

 

[Wrichik Basu]

Every resource has its negative aspects. It all depends on how you use it. You can use WhatsApp for chatting away to glory, and also for interacting with learned people and thereby boost your knowledge.

Something similar exists for YouTube as well. Youtube doesn't check for quality and authenticity of videos. If you are not aware, there is every chance that you will land up in the wrong place. Maybe that's why the PF media gallery was created with a view to separate out the authentic scientific videos.

 

[ZapperZ]

Studies have been done showing a lower error % than published encyclopedias

I don't recommend encyclopedias either.

Zz.

 

[DrClaude]

There used to be gatekeepers, people who would filter information and cut out the BS. There are of course some pro and cons to this, but overall it seemed to work ok in western democracies.

Now, everyone can put out content, making it easier for fringe ideas to be disseminated. Add to that the demagoguery against the "elites" with the knowledge (who, ironically, are rarely the real, powerful elites), and you basically get the world we are in right now.

 

[Wrichik Basu]

Now that's funny, after I've documented errors in a number of entries.

Moreover, after Wikipedia made provisions for allowing the public to edit without logging in, spam has become a problem.

 

[DrClaude]

This is getting off-topic very fast. This thread is not about the validity of Wikipedia.

 

[ZapperZ]

Now, everyone can put out content, making it easier for fringe ideas to be disseminated. Add to that the demagoguery against the "elites" with the knowledge (who, ironically, are rarely the real, powerful elites), and you basically get the world we are in right now.

Yeah, and that's why I was laughing when I read the last part of the news article when it reported this:

But she conceded that some Flat Earthers may not be swayed by a scientists’ words. When the US astrophysicist Neil deGrasse Tyson explained how small sections of large curved surfaces will always appear flat to the little creatures that crawl upon it, his message was seen by some Flat Earthers as patronising and dismissive, Landrum said.

Yet, the Flat Earthers didn't think it was insulting and "patronising" when they make wholesale dismissal of scientists as conspirators. People like this will always try to paint themselves as the "victims", that things are being done to them, and are completely blind to what they do to other people.

Zz.

 

[Rive]

Please say it ain't so!

Well, it ain't so. The reason is more about the existence of cheap, non-filtered, easily available channels to express personal opinions. Youtube is just (a loud, flashy) part of this.

Also, I have a feeling that it is somewhere in our 'genes' to diverge from the safe, well known paths in case there are enough of us together and it does not cost too much - and to be honest being a flat Earth believer right now even can bring benefits instead of harm.
With adding in Photoshop and other 'reality manipulating tools' what I see is the development of a fragmented pile of broken 'realities' barely intersecting with each other. Without some kind of applied Darwinism enforced on the personal ideas I don't really see any way around this.

 

[phinds]

The Flat Earth Society was founded in 1956. I don't think YouTube was around back then (and of course a belief in flat Earth predates that society). It IS likely true that MORE people now believe in flat Earth because of social media but social media is not the cause, stupidity is.

 

[BillTre]

I don't recommend encyclopedias either.

Zz.

Well, what do you recommend for those who are not so scientifically inclined as a source of information on various topics like this?

You don't like encyclopedias, you don't like wikipedia, most people are not going to read research literature since they don't have the background to understand the concepts and jargon. What does that leave, popularized science articles whose availability is spotty and quality is often suspect.

Rather than just pointlessly complain, it would be more useful to provide an pathway to some solutions.
Maybe make comments (or insert links to relevant PF threads) on all the youtube videos and wikipedia articles you don't like.

I know a contractor who says there are three aspects of a job, of which you can only get two optimized: price, speed of getting it done, and quality. You can oten get two of them for a project but often not all three (perhaps unless you are related to the contractor).
Similarly for people with a causal interest in science, they often want to easily access information (therefore search the web, not take university courses or read textbooks (some of which have errors also)), they often don't want to pay for the information or invest lots of time to get an "answer", and they would like it to be correct (presumably).
Determining the correctness would probably be difficult for the nonscientific and most likely let slide if it seemed to "make sense".

 

[gmax137]

I think a large part of this is the distrust of authority. The counterculture of the 1960s and the widespread belief that the Viet Nam war was a horrible waste of lives strengthened the idea that those in authority are liars, or at least that what they say is tainted by their self interest. Pretty soon, this leads to "you have to be a fool to believe..."

 

[Bystander]

tainted by their self interest.

Those "in authority," and those out, even more so.

 

[nuuskur]

As much as I've seen in YouTube, the comment section mostly mocks the flat Earth idea. So, I'd say YouTube can be used to promote flat Earth belief, I don't think that's where it started, though. It is also 'popular' to be against widely accepted beliefs, to insist the governments are evil and new world order and yade yade yade ..

 

[Klystron]

Although written and presented as a modern novel with lovely brilliant ladies, courageous dedicated friends, and often hilarious insights into publishing, Italian semiologist Umberto Eco has written the definitive skeptical text on popular anti-science theories. Flat earth, hollow earth, Illuminati, and the persistent knights Templar among others, are examined and explained in detail with primary and secondary historical references. Though mainly focused on Europe with an interlude in Brazil, reading Foucault's Pendulum gives one a better understanding how 'moronic beliefs' multiply and spread.

While this thread is specific to Flat Earth theories shown on Youtube, Eco explains the origins and participants in these persistent phenomena.

 

[Dr. Courtney]

I think the failure of public education in the sciences bears more of the blame. Stupid YouTube videos can only create flat Earth believers if the watchers have not learned to think critically and draw conclusions from weighing the available data for themselves.

Science education has drifted over the past decades from a method-centered approach to a fact-centered approach, and thus it is more strongly an appeal to authority regarding what (set of facts) to believe and a less of an objective approach imparting of an objective method to draw conclusions based on observations and data.

It is always easier for later voices to undermine purported facts based on appeals to authority than it is to undermine the ability to think independently and draw valid conclusions from the available data.

 

[DrClaude]

Science education has drifted over the past decades from a method-centered approach to a fact-centered approach,

Is that really the case? Fifty years ago, teaching was definitely not hands-on, but rather rote learning.

 

[Dr. Courtney]

Is that really the case? Fifty years ago, teaching was definitely not hands-on, but rather rote learning.

Forget about education in general - focus on middle and high school science education. And forget about rote vs hands-on. Focus on whether there is adequate emphasis on the path from data to conclusions. Most of my observations are from the 70s to the present. I have not investigated or spoken to many colleagues about their education experience in the 60s.

But in the 70s and 80s, a few things were much more common than today:
1. A careful evaluation of the historical experiments and data that underpinned important new theoretical developments. Yes, one might consider this "rote" learning, but more students learned about the experiments and even went over the data in class relating to essential developments like the law of definite proportions, Kepler's laws, Boyle's law, and Pasteur's spontaneous generation experiments. Yes, these still are "covered" today, but students are less likely to be required to summarize how the experiments support the emerging theory (or disprove the older theory) in graded work.
2. The number of science experiments that are performed during class time and require testing a hypothesis and writing a lab report presenting the data and discussing whether or not the hypothesis was supported. Back in the 70s and 80s middle and high school science students were much more likely to see 10-15 of these science labs each year. Today, worksheet based labs with far less thinking and analysis are more common.
3. Science fair participation at the school level is much lower today than in the 70s and 80s. Back in the 70s and 80s, at least half of high schools in my colleagues experience required science fair projects in at least some of their science courses. Today, other than magnet schools, private schools, and charter schools, schools that require science fair projects are uncommon. I've mentored projects at science fairs in a number of states, and it's the same handful of schools sending projects to these fairs year after year.

 

[OCR]

I have not investigated or spoken to many colleagues about their education experience in the 60s.

LMAO...They might be unable to relate "their education experience" from the 60s, in a manner, that would be

comprehensible to you, Doc... . .
You probably know what I mean... . . . . . → a link

.

 

[Dr. Courtney]

LMAO...They might be unable to relate "their education experience" from the 60s, in a manner, that would be

comprehensible to you, Doc... . .
You probably know what I mean... . . . . .

.

I should ask my pastor about it. He's a classic biker dude from the 60s (drugs and tats and jail time and everything) and has already shared some of his vivid memories from his math and history classes in the late 60s, so he probably remembers his science courses also. Funny you should link White Rabbit - the other day we were practicing some worship songs in the church and he comes in thinking I was playing the bass line from White Rabbit, since that's what it sounded like outside (low frequencies penetrate the building walls better.) Now this guy didn't even graduate from high school, but his science classes in the 60s were at least good enough that he's not a flat earther. (Come to think of it, most flat earthers are a lot younger, as are most YouTube viewers.)

 

[DrClaude]

@Dr. Courtney, you bring up some good points.

My problem with the role of education in this debate stems from the fact that I am of two minds about it. While I agree that the hands-on approach is an important component, at the same time too much self-reliance can lead astray. We see it here on PF, where some posters appear to need to redo old experiments to be convinced of certain things, like the existence of the electron. Fine if someone wants to do that, but to progress in scientific knowledge you have at one point to accept what others have done before. So teaching about old experiments would indeed be an important part of education.

The link I make with the flat-earthers is that many of them do their own experiments, but that leads them to wrong conclusions. Perceiving the world as flat doesn't mean it is.

 

[Bystander]

but to progress in scientific knowledge you have at one point to accept what others have done before. So teaching about old experiments would indeed be an important part of education.

"Educators" have adopted "discovery" methods in "teaching" these days, that is, the student is "guided" through a "discovery" process that may, or may not be valid (usually not).

 

[Andy Resnick]

But I suppose that if you can fall that easily into believing that the Earth is flat simply by watching these YouTube videos, than you'll believe in anything.

Zz.

As it happens, I recently watched the documentary "Behind the Curve":

https://www.behindthecurvefilm.com

It's great, and the end of the film has a significant event (no spoilers!). Based on the people interviewed for the film, I have to disagree with your premise- the root pathology lies much deeper than any particular belief and is not limited to 'weak-minded' individuals.

The pathology arises for two reasons, one of which is the loss of distinction between having a set of particular beliefs and creating a personal identity: in their case, the belief forms the basis of self-identity. Then, there is a strong disincentive to changing the belief that the Earth is flat because that means admitting their entire identity is false.

The second underlying reason is the psychosocial benefit. Rather then being a nameless cog in the giant modern industrial machine, they can literally create an alternate identity where they are a widely recognized leader (here is where social media comes in). Socially, these marginalized and alienated people can then satisfy the deep need for friendship and family which they are otherwise lacking.

So no- YouTube is not responsible for creating Flat-Earth believers.

 

[pinball1970]

The Flat Earth Society was founded in 1956. I don't think YouTube was around back then (and of course a belief in flat Earth predates that society). It IS likely true that MORE people now believe in flat Earth because of social media but social media is not the cause, stupidity is.

Unfortunately, You tube is easy and science is hard, Occam’s razor is boring conspiracy theories interesting.People can watch Justin Bieber, then watch a cat attacking the TV, then watch an interesting conspiracy video outlining how scientists and NASA especially are trying to keep everyone in the dark regarding the shape of the Earth age of the Earth and push the religion of evolution on children.All entertaining (besides Bieber)There was a discussion about this on a another thread about what the drivers are. https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/why-does-flat-earth-belief-still-exist.960112/People can be wilfully ignorant.

 

[StatGuy2000]

There have been fringe beliefs that have permeated throughout a not insignificant proportion of the population throughout history, even in the presence of evidence that directly contradicts those beliefs. Among these include:

1. Belief in witchcraft
2. Belief in astrology or numerology
3. Belief in alien abduction, UFOs, alien visitation
4. Belief in the sasquatch(aka Bigfoot), the yeti, the Loch Ness monster, and other such creatures

These beliefs have often co-existed with, and take on similar characteristics, to religious beliefs. Belief in the flat Earth is similar to such beliefs and predate the existence of social media such as YouTube, but the presence of social media make such beliefs more readily visible to the broader society.

 

[Dr. Courtney]

There have been fringe beliefs that have permeated throughout a not insignificant proportion of the population throughout history, even in the presence of evidence that directly contradicts those beliefs. Among these include: ...

3. Belief in alien abduction, UFOs, alien visitation
4. Belief in the sasquatch(aka Bigfoot), the yeti, the Loch Ness monster, and other such creatures

It is a big mistake to put these beliefs in the same category as belief in a flat earth. It is essentially the difference between "unproven" and "disproven." Sure, a strong and compelling case can be made that stuff like alien abduction and sasquatch are unproven. But proving a negative (truly disproving these kinds of claims) is much harder. Even if one shows a number of cases to be exaggerations and frauds, one has not truly disproven all claims in the same category. The absence of evidence is not the same as the evidence of absence. So disproving the absolute existence of a given being or phenomena is fundamentally different from disproving claims regarding the shape of an object known to exist (the earth) and that is amenable to repeatable observations.

The flat Earth claim is different not just in degree, but also in kind. The proof that the Earth is an oblate spheroid is really strong enough to say with confidence that flat Earth theories ARE, in fact, disproven.

 

[Dr. Courtney]

@Dr. Courtney, you bring up some good points.

My problem with the role of education in this debate stems from the fact that I am of two minds about it. While I agree that the hands-on approach is an important component, at the same time too much self-reliance can lead astray. We see it here on PF, where some posters appear to need to redo old experiments to be convinced of certain things, like the existence of the electron. Fine if someone wants to do that, but to progress in scientific knowledge you have at one point to accept what others have done before. So teaching about old experiments would indeed be an important part of education.

The link I make with the flat-earthers is that many of them do their own experiments, but that leads them to wrong conclusions. Perceiving the world as flat doesn't mean it is.

I am not really advocating to give undue weight in science education to a "hands on" approach. I think 15 high quality lab experiments each year is adequate for high school lab science courses and 14-15 high quality labs each semester are adequate for college lab science courses. (This is what most lab science courses currently claim in their descriptions and documentation submitted for accreditation.) I am advocating for more emphasis on science as an objective method and (given fixed time constraints), this requires less emphasis on rote learning of science "facts." But this emphasis needs to be increased both in the lecture and in the lab portions of a course. In the lecture portion, there needs to be more discussion and accountability relating to historical experiments. In the lab portion, there needs to be more rigorous testing of hypotheses and greater accountability when it is done poorly. More lab reports and fewer worksheets - and lower grades when the conclusions are not well supported by the data.

I have no problem teaching students to accept what other scientists have done before. But more emphasis should be on the process. We need to impart students with an attitude of "show me the data" and the ability to understand the reasoning behind how the experiments and their data lead to the rejection of previously held models and the acceptance of the new models. The "hands on" lab experiments build lab and experimental skills needed to better assess and evaluate important historical experiments and understand the data presented by others. There is no need for students to re-do every experiment of historical importance with their own hands. In contrast, they only need to perform sufficient experiments to know how the scientific method really works in each discipline. Students need to be much better at knowing which conclusions are valid from a given experiment, and which conclusions go beyond what is really supported by the data.