Japan Earthquake: Nuclear Plants at Fukushima Daiichi

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The Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant is facing significant challenges following the earthquake, with reports indicating that reactor pressure has reached dangerous levels, potentially 2.1 times capacity. TEPCO has lost control of pressure at a second unit, raising concerns about safety and management accountability. The reactor is currently off but continues to produce decay heat, necessitating cooling to prevent a meltdown. There are conflicting reports about an explosion, with indications that it may have originated from a buildup of hydrogen around the containment vessel. The situation remains serious, and TEPCO plans to flood the containment vessel with seawater as a cooling measure.
  • #4,921
jlduh said:
So if this is confirmed, and as i personally imagined it based on the layout out of this basements, that seawater actually flooded the basements of the turbine buildings. Which means that a certain volume of the water that has been reported on site (contaminated then, of course) was in fact from the tsunami.

This is important in my opinion because if this confirms to be true, then it means that the figures we got concerning the "highly contaminated water" in the basements, when it was reported, were probably in fact the result of a dilution of the cooling water leaking from the reactors(with even higher contamination levels I am my opinion) into uncontaminated seawater from the tsunami resting in the basement after the wave withdraw.

I'm not sure that this picture was clear for everybody so that's why i enlighten it. Do others share this analysis?

I think there were workers in the basements working on the electrical connections and there was no flooding at that point (maybe within couple weeks). Then one day ( i can't remember the exact date), they found some water about 30 cm deep, and two or three workers got irradiated through their boots until they realized it was contaminated water. The water level rose afterward. This suggests the water is not from tsunami/groundwater but is from the leaks and the radiation levels in that water are not highly diluted, at least not in the way you suggest.

Edit: Here's the link to the post.
https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=3210380&postcount=1281
 
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  • #4,922
Astronuc said:
Ultimately it comes down to:

1. How much and what fuel was damaged, and to what extent, in units 1, 2 and 3?

2. How much and what fuel was damaged, and to what extent, in Unit 4 SFP?

3. What damage is there to the containment structures of units 1, 2, 3 and 4?

4. What damage is there to the RPVs, feedwater systems, and all related piping systems of Units 1, 2, 3 and 4?

We won't know the answers until 1) the fuel is removed, 2) the contaminated water is removed from the containments, and 3) the containments are decontaminated sufficiently to inspect with high resolution cameras, if not in person.

Understood. I was thinking, however, that it will take right around forever to get those ultimate questions answered (and who knows if we'll get to hear the full truth or when), so that it might be a good idea to keep a list of those "smaller" questions along the way and their answers as or if they emerge. Maybe those answers can at some point confirm or disprove the answers to the ultimate questions 1-4 above. Just a thought.
 
  • #4,923
Dmytry said:
yes yes of course Russian also uses word 'radioactivity'.
How do they call contamination with radioactive materials? The English word 'contamination' is not very specific, can be used for something contagious. Russian word is specific, made dirty, never used for viruses or bacteria.

The word used is 汚染, which I think has about the same range of meanings as the English word "contamination." (Can also be used in reference to chemical pollution or viruses and bacteria, for example.)

But that word was not used in the Japanese reply at the press conference. It (or rather, "contamination") was added in the translation to English.
 
  • #4,924
triumph61 said:
I found a google spreadsheet. The Water Level on Unit 4 is display. If the Level is correct, i don´t know
https://spreadsheets0.google.com/cc...ZDbX39YK-iFb0Iw&hl=ja&authkey=CP6ewJkO#gid=35

triumph61 this is a nice find, here we have all the published data tabulated in a spreadsheet thanks to the hard work of Masato Fujii http://twitter.com/toofuya

Browsing this data, I possibly discovered a unpublished problem for reactors 5 and 6.

Plot of water level and water temperature of reactor 6
[PLAIN]http://k.min.us/iliXFo.JPG
left axis reactor temp, right axis water level above reactor fuel, blue is for water, red-brown is for temperature
From this plot we can draw two conclusion
1) Reactor 6 water seems to be slowly leaking, either into the primary containment or to the outside (classic saw-tooth plot), and since cooling was re-established water has been replenished on three occasions. (or is there another explanation)
2) Reactor 6 cooling is a start stop operation

Assuming reactor diameter of 6 metres, then 1 metre change in level is 113 tonnes of water, thus the leak rate is about 50 to 70 tonnes a week

Also, from the spreadsheet data similar situation exists in reactor 5


One can see the effect of the water temperature rising as small peaks in the water level.
 
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  • #4,925
AntonL said:
From this plot we can draw two conclusion
1) Reactor 6 water seems to be slowly leaking to the outside (classic saw-tooth plot), and since cooling was re-established water has been replenished on three occasions. (or is there another explanation)
2) Reactor 6 cooling is a start stop operation
3) similar situation exists in reactor 5

One can see the effect of the water temperature rising as small peaks in the water level.


Please label your axes. Which line goes with the numbers on the left, and which goes with the right? I did figure it out eventually - I think - but I shouldn't have had to.

What is the water level in relation to? Is the graph for the reactor or the SFP? Why does this graph represent a problem? Because water is disappearing and needs to be replenished?
 
  • #4,926
MiceAndMen said:
Please label your axes. Which line goes with the numbers on the left, and which goes with the right? I did figure it out eventually - I think - but I shouldn't have had to.
I am a MS-Excel anti-talent; left axis reactor temp, right axis water level above reactor fuel, blue is for water, red-brown is for temperature

What is the water level in relation to? Is the graph for the reactor or the SFP? Why does this graph represent a problem? Because water is disappearing and needs to be replenished?

Water should not be disappearing from the nuclear reactor, it is a closed loop cooling system

Furthermore, we are observing low level radiation in the ground water of Unit 5 and 6, possibly this is the source.
 
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  • #4,927
AntonL said:
left axis reactor temp, right axis water level above reactor fuel, blue is for water, red-brown is for temperature

Water should not be disappearing from the nuclear reactor, it is a closed loop cooling system

Furthermore, we are observing low level radiation in the ground water of Unit 5 and 6, possibly this is the source.

Thanks, Anton.
 
  • #4,928
I think there were workers in the basements working on the electrical connections and there was no flooding at that point (maybe within couple weeks). Then one day ( i can't remember the exact date), they found some water about 30 cm deep, and two or three workers got irradiated through their boots until they realized it was contaminated water. The water level rose afterward.

Well, i know this is what has been said. But to tell you the truth, since the very beginning i know that these turbine buildings have basements below the platform level, I've been pretty sure, based on the images i saw of the tsunami flooding the plant, that it was almost impossible that these basements stayed dry with so much water outside at ground level. The description in this article just confirms this feeling. Now, why this story of water appearing suddenly in the basement floor? Well, i think there are two possibilities:

1) a cover up story from Tepco for reducing its responsbility when the 3 workers got caught with highly contaminated water in this place. Remember the context, Tepco was under pressure from the gov because the workers had not the appropriate suits and shoes. We learned after also that dosimeters were heavily missing for workers at the plant since the start of the operations after the tsunami, so a story like that is really a possibility to minimize their responsabilities in the medias.

2) it is a possible though that the specific place where this happened was a different room than the turbine building in itself (based on the images where one expert located it, that was i think an adjacent one) which could also explain the fact that there wasn't so much water at first. Also the article says that the levels in turbine reactors were not the same everywhere.

But i on't see the one with as much as 1,5 meters of water drying up like that after the tsunami, so anyway, there is something strange around this subject.
 
  • #4,929
RealWing said:
So - what is the source for these very high levels? One possibility is from a quantity of spent fuel (from the SFP's) being blown into the air during the explosions? Another is from the large cloud of radioactive gasses? I hate to think it might be a criticality event - but maybe should add it to the list?

Other possibilities??
In the recent Chris Busby (yeah, I know) interview, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-3Kf4JakWI&feature=channel_video_title he certainly suggests criticality.

It is frustrating that TEPCO staff are not (presumably) allowed to join this forum! (There must be a few thousand of them at home). Some of them will have answers to a lot of our questions.

I can imagine one of them reading or musings and saying to himself, "Hole? What hole? That's just the washing line we hung out those dirty rags to dry on."
 
  • #4,930
To Anton L: your analysis is interesting with these curves on n° 5 and 6. Something to add to the list of mysteries. Could it be related to a normal variation in closed loop in relation with the level in the suppression chamber for example? In cold stop I don’t see two much how the SC would play a role if the water is at low temp, but…

Reactor n°6 doesn’t have a torus if I remember well (newer generation of BWR)?
 
  • #4,931
To all asking where to bring more political aspects around the accident, i remember that i started this thread to do that:

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=486089

A thread where I'm going to post this info from NHK saying that none at the government knew of any risk of hydrogen explosions at the reactors before it happened (should be a good political subject to revive this specific thread and post other political subjects!):

http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/26_10.html

So go there to talk about this!
 
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  • #4,932
three interesting articles at ASAHI

One gives some bits of infos on the radiation (related to rumble and debris) subject:

http://www.asahi.com/english/TKY201104250130.html

The other one is about the strategy used by tepco to gradually fill (at least in reactor n°1, but maybe also in other ones) the containment vessels with water:

http://www.asahi.com/english/TKY201104250125.html

And the last one is about the seriousness of the leakage of contaminated water into the sea (compared already to the one of Sellafield):
http://www.asahi.com/english/TKY201104230223.html
 
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  • #4,933
Emreth said:
The water level rose afterward. This suggests the water is not from tsunami/groundwater but is from the leaks and the radiation levels in that water are not highly diluted, at least not in the way you suggest.

Remember those two dead guys found in the basement of the number four turbine building?

They were killed by the tsunami waters, according to the pathologist.

How is this possible? The tsunami waters perhaps traveled at high speed through some tunnel into the basement and those two guys were killed immediately.

The tsunami waters can also fill the basements from outside in: first the tsunami waters mix with ground and groundwater and afterwards - perhaps after the level of groundwater has risen a little bit - this water can enter into the basements by infiltrating through the concrete.

In this latter situation the water levels rise more slowly in the basements.

So it is probably a mess where groundwater, tsunami waters and cooling waters have mixed and you cannot say which of these has happened in any particular spot (sub-drainage, basements, tunnels, trenches and so on).

TEPCO wants most of it to be tsunami waters, of course, because that way they can keep their belief that most of the cooling waters are still in the reactors. :wink:
 
  • #4,934
TCups said:
Hmmm . . .

The northeast corner of Bldg 4 is odd, for sure. I don't believe it was the whole roof that lifted -- maybe the northeast corner might have had that effect. But if so, why?! What happened in the northeast corner of that building.

@liamdavis:

Maybe you could lend your expertise here, sir. Also, can you comment on your assessment of the possibility that the concussion and shock wave from the Bldg 3 explosion might have done structural damage to the northeast corner of Bldg 4 that wasn't readily visible from the outside. Perhaps after the blast at Bldg 3, the northeast corner of Bldg 4 was simply the weakest link.

Sir, to your post 4077 on P255, the northeast corner (bottom-left) appears to have been closest to the origin of the blast. The area closest would have been most closely coupled to the energy of the blast. SWAG mostly, and I apologize for the delayed response. I have been away and not been able to get on for a week. (50 pages to go)
 
  • #4,935
Well, i don't understand very well how difficult it is to imagine how tsunami water can have entered the basements of the turbine buildings. These ones are not designed to be water proof nor air tight, they are not part of the containment structure of the reactors. With the wave coming, some doors or panels may have (and probably have been) distorted or damaged...
 
  • #4,936
|Fred said:
*Ponder*
[PLAIN]http://img850.imageshack.us/img850/2685/unit4preexplosionhole.jpg[/QUOTE]

Hmm, yes, if it is a door or hole, it doesn't really match the post-blast structure very well, does it...

Now the middle, low-res image is looking to me like some object that is standing there on the roof in front of the wall. I can imagine I see two posts, joined by a thick cross-piece at the top, and they are casting a shadow on the wall.

Something shaped like this:
Code:
====
|  |
|  |

Maybe something like a small-ish wheeled crane?

(And it would be up there because...why?)

And where might it have gone after the blast? No sign of it under the rubble on the roof, but perhaps it got blown down with the staircase and is on the ground near the corner of the building? (The video taken from the top of the Putzmeister shows some wreckage down there, but it is unidentifiable.)
 
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  • #4,938
As a follow-up, I wrote:
rowmag said:
The PDF file is specifically a report on the condition of the long-term stored MOX at Unit 3, but that doesn't exclude the possibility that plastic covering is standard procedure regardless of the fuel. Have so far just skimmed the file, though.

Searching through the file finds no other reference to the plastic covering, but some references to fiberscope searches for foreign matter in the assemblies (not much found), but no particular reason given why this should be a MOX-specific issue (to go to NUCENG's query). So perhaps such plastic covering may have been used in SFP4 as well?
 
  • #4,940
AntonL said:
triumph61 this is a nice find, here we have all the published data tabulated in a spreadsheet thanks to the hard work of Masato Fujii http://twitter.com/toofuya

Browsing this data, I possibly discovered a unpublished problem for reactors 5 and 6.

Plot of water level and water temperature of reactor 6
[PLAIN]http://k.min.us/iliXFo.JPG
left axis reactor temp, right axis water level above reactor fuel, blue is for water, red-brown is for temperature
From this plot we can draw two conclusion
1) Reactor 6 water seems to be slowly leaking, either into the primary containment or to the outside (classic saw-tooth plot), and since cooling was re-established water has been replenished on three occasions. (or is there another explanation)
2) Reactor 6 cooling is a start stop operation

Assuming reactor diameter of 6 metres, then 1 metre change in level is 113 tonnes of water, thus the leak rate is about 50 to 70 tonnes a week

Also, from the spreadsheet data similar situation exists in reactor 5


One can see the effect of the water temperature rising as small peaks in the water level.
Same strange saw tooth pattern in dry well #6 for dose rate.
http://atmc.jp/plant/rad/?n=6
 
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  • #4,941
artax said:
Interesting video here, nut I don't know geographiacally where from?
Cesium works like that. It forms local 'hot' spots on and lines on surfaces around water flows.
 
  • #4,942
(I apologise should this been posted earlier)

http://www.asahi.com/english/TKY201104240109.html
Recognized as the world leader in robotic technology, Japan will finally deploy its own robot at the crippled Fukushima No. 1 nuclear power plant after relying on US-made versions to do all the work.

...

Another project to develop a robot for a nuclear accident started after a fatal accident at JCO Co. In Ibaraki Prefecture in 1999. After several billion yen was spent, the project was ended in one year on the grounds that the government did not want to give off a mistaken impression to the public.

"(Authorities) perhaps thought that people would think that they were anticipating a nuclear power plant accident if they had developed robots for accidents," Hirose said

I just love that excuse to explain why an apparent technological lead could not be demonstrated by implementing practical applications.
 
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  • #4,943
artax said:
Interesting video here, nut I don't know geographiacally where from?



Oh there's a map a few minutes in.


Seems to be in Fukushima City. That meter is detecting beta radiation from surfaces.
 
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  • #4,944
fluutekies said:
Same strange saw tooth pattern in dry well #6 for dose rate.
http://atmc.jp/plant/rad/?n=6
that is actually the spent fuel temperature of unit 6 - dry well dose rates have never been published by Tepco.
 
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  • #4,945
artax said:
Interesting video here, nut I don't know geographiacally where from?

Oh there's a map a few minutes in.

And a map of contamination around site here.

Fukushima City - more than sixty km from the plant.
 
  • #4,946
AntonL said:
(I apologise should this been posted earlier)

http://www.asahi.com/english/TKY201104240109.html


I just love that excuse to explain why an apparent technological lead could not be demonstrated by implementing practical applications.

Recognized as the world leader in robotic technology...
I don't recognize them as such. A leader, yes, but not the leader. Except for their automobile manufacturing robots, most of what I see from there revolves around whimsical toys and amusements. Call me when they land a couple on Mars and have them drive around for a few years.
 
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  • #4,947
Interesting video here, nut I don't know geographiacally where from?



The main interest of this video is that it shows clearly a phenomenon that has to be understood by anybody who wants to (try to) link measurements and risks for human health. It shows that in the very same area, measurements in microSv/h can HUGELY vary depending on how and where the measurement is done (and this is very often the origins of disputes between associations and autorities: meaning of measurements depending on how the measurement is done).

Which means that any measurement disclosed (also for the global measurements in the areas in the 20 or 30 kms areas) has to be taken as an indication but not a true picture of reality when trying to assess the mid or long term risks for human health (especially when trying to compare those to "thresholds" or "limits" or whatever).

A good part of contamination is related to dust particles carrying contamination, which will concentrate in geographical areas (leopards spots) and in one of such areas, there will be also a huge variability in places where particles will concentrate. The video shows for example that at the output of draining pipes from roofs, where particulates deposited with rain for example, the contamination concentrates. In a few meters distance, the levels can vary from one or several orders of magnitude.

The problem is that if you measure it at a level of let say 1-1,5m (your hands level) you'll get a measure very different than if you measure it at ground level, and at ground level, this measure will also widely vary depending on the spots. Everything that can move the particles is of factor of variation or concentration, and this can of course evolve with time: wind can relocate particles that were on the ground (so people can inhalate them), water will concentrate the dust all along its paths, etc.

The real exposition of a person living at a certain place for a given time will depend more on what he will do, breath, drink and eat, than on a global measured (but measured how?) value then extrapolated for a year, because this doesn't take into account the complexity of the processes involved.

In classical studies done for ongoing chemical pollutions out of many factories in their "normal" activities, the calculations done to assess the excess risks of cancers for example into one exposed population take into account a huge number of parameters, such as what people will eat and so on. And these will only give you a rough idea of some average exposition (that's why safety coefficient are put into place, to try to take into account the fact that measurements and dispersions are complex matters).

It is known for example that in the case of children, a major path for contamination to enter their body is through "ingestion of soil". This looks always surprising but not so much when you consider what they do during the day and also the fact that their mouth is not at the same level than ours as adults!
This info illustrates very well the point: http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/26_19.html

(even if this is maybe a "good" decision, it seems more a psychological related one than an effective one... because who can think of dust particles not moving from around with the wind and rain and redepositing?

This remembers me a lot of silly stuff done at Tchernobyl to try to fix contamination. Environment and contamination processes are somewhat different in essence than just the basic housekeeping cleanliness psychology: "this is dirty, this is clean"!

Ok, doing something is sometimes the only thing to do, so...

Hope this video and these explanations will help to understand the difficulty for REALLY assessing exposition risks for various people in a given area. Reality is always more complex than models and comparison of a number to an other number!
 
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  • #4,948
Thanks Jlduh,..
That is very relevant,.. in fact I did hear that the first 'criticality' achieved on the planet was a natural event,thousands of years before the human race got going, anyone have any knowledge of this?

Here you go!

http://www.livescience.com/75-natural-nuclear-reaction-powered-ancient-geyser.html

There are quite a few videos out there, using only Japanese script in their titles and key words.
I used the japanes script fot contamination, posted lat page to search you tube japan... it would be good to have a list of RELEVANT words, written in Japanese.
Anyone know the best way to get translations?
 
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  • #4,949
Some remarks about the recently found Unit #3 "blueprints" (two vertical sections and one service floor layout):

* As far as I can tell, the pillar sructure of Unit #4, substantially exposed by the explosion, matches quite well the blueprints of #3. That is rassuring, it fits with the hope that #2--#4 are structurally similar.

* On the other hand, the three "blueprints" are amateurish. The first two seem to have been done by hand with ruler & compass; the floorplan was done with some random illustration software. Neither is a professional drawng. The north-south cut is the worst; the vertical positions of several features (such as the basment floor) do not match the numbers given along the side. also, the SFP and dryer storage pool in that drawing do not match the florplan. The east-west cut seems more accurate.

* According to the floorplan, and confirmed by the photos, the 4 corner pillars are exacly alike. The other 5 pillars in the west face are all alike and equally spaced, and are exactly mirrored on the east face.On the other hand, the 4 wall pillars on the north and the 4 on the south are irregularly sized and spaced, and there are only two mirrored pairs (1 and 2 from west to right). The south pillars 3 and 4 are aligned with the tracks of the FHM, and bracket the SFP. North pillars 3 and 4 likewise bracket the dryer storage pool.

* Looking at the pictures it is hard to keep in mind the true scale of the objects. Those pillars are massive, about 1.5 by 1.3 meters in cross section (if the drawings are to be trusted).

* In particular, pillar 4 on the south face was twice as wide as the others; posibly 2 m wide by 1.5 m deep. nevertheless, the part that used to exist above the service floor got completely blasted away, leaving the broad "window" that allows us to peer into the SFP.

* The mysterious "hole" that appears in the pre-explosion photos is not in the 3rd row of panels from the top, but on the 4th. After the explosion, the hole got buried by debris; only the top edge is barely visible. It is on the "3rd storey" of the building (the service floor being the 5th). That storey has a rather low ceiling (5.4 m minus the concrete slab). Its floor is on the same level as the floor of the SFP (which is near to southeast corner of the building, only 6-8 meters away from the "hole".
 
  • #4,950
jlduh said:
The main interest of this video is that it shows clearly a phenomenon that has to be understood by anybody wants to (try to) link measurements and risks for human health. It shows that in the very same area, measurements in microSv/h can HUGELY vary depending on how and where the measurement is done (and this is very often the origins of disputes between associations and autorities: meaning of measurements depending on how the measurement is done).

Which means that any measurement disclosed (also for the global measurements in the areas in the 20 or 30 kms areas) has to be taken as an indication but not a true picture of reality when trying to assess the mid or long term risks for human health (especially when trying to compare those to "thresholds" or "limits" or whatever).

A good part of contamination is related to dust particles carrying contamination, which will concentrate in geographical areas (leopards spots) and in one of such areas, there will be also a huge variability in places where particles will concentrate. The video shows for example that at the output of draining pipes from roofs, where particulates deposited with rain for example, the contamination concentrates. In a few meters distance, the levels can vary from one or several orders of magnitude.

The problem is that if you measure it at a level of let say 1-1,5m (your hands level) you'll get a measure very different than if you measure it at ground level, and at ground level, this measure will also widely vary depending on the spots. Everything that can move the particles is of factor of variation or concentration, and this can of course evolve with time: wind can relocate particles that were on the ground (so people can inhalate them), water will concentrate the dust all along its paths, etc.

The real exposition of a person living at a certain place for a given time will depend more on what he will do, breath, drink and eat, than on a global measured (but measured how?) value then extrapolated for a year, because this doesn't take into account the complexity of the processes involved.

In classical studies done for ongoing chemical pollutions out of many factories in their "normal" activities, the calculations done to assess the excess risks of cancers for example into one exposed population take into account a huge number of parameters, such as what people will eat and so on. And these will only give you a rough idea of some average exposition (that's why safety coefficient are put into place, to try to take into account the fact that measurements and dispersions are complex matters).

It is known for example that in the case of children, a major path for contamination to enter their body is through "ingestion of soil". This looks always surprising but not so much when you consider what they do during the day and also the fact that their mouth is not at the same level than ours as adults!

Hope this video and these explanations will help to understand the difficulty for REALLY assessing exposition risks for various people in a given area. Reality is always more complex than models and comparison of a number to an other number!
I've been telling about this since the day 1 on some other forum. Precisely in the words of how dose rates differ between drain pipe, ground, and holding counter up in the air!
This spots situation is absolutely no surprise for those who know how Chernobyl fallout fell.

This is also highly relevant to the LNT model. The LNT 'opponents' who declare the doses safe / below threshold, use the average doses, where the averaging is justified by LNT (the deaths given by LNT are same regardless of dose distribution as long as doses stay below those resulting in acute symptoms, so you can use the averaging), but then they deny LNT when it comes to counting the cancer deaths.
 

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