Japan Earthquake: Nuclear Plants at Fukushima Daiichi

[curie]

Astronuc,

If someone suspects they have inhaled plutonium, are there medical or radiological tests to confirm it ?

Rhody...

Faecal monitoring is one of the best methods, if not the most pleasant. Also urine monitoring & nasal swabs.

 

[artax]

http://www.spiegel.de/images/image-193255-galleryV9-wbmd.jpg

so the hole blown in the south side of unit 4, is that above an SFP or to the side of it?

 

[curious11]

http://www.spiegel.de/images/image-193255-galleryV9-wbmd.jpg

so the hole blown in the south side of unit 4, is that above an SFP or to the side of it?

Looks to be to the side to me...

 

[AtomicWombat]

Nice. If those service tunnels are on the same end as the SFPs, then all 4 units, 1-4 have the SFPs on the south side of the building and the equipment storage pool is on the north. The fuel handling machines would have been parked at the south end of the spent fuel pools, and unit 4s refueling could have been over the SFP. If there was fuel debris from SFP, it then should be coming out the south face of the buildings.

Two photos that seem to confirm this view.

The inside of reactor building number 4 in operation. The fuel handling machine is in the background and the trench to the SFP can be seen leading from the open reactor. The gantry crane is above to the rear.
[PLAIN]http://img.allvoices.com/thumbs/event/598/486/75100052-file-photo.jpg

The outside after the explosion that seems to show the fuel handling machine from the other side:
[PLAIN]http://mainichi.jp/select/jiken/graph/20110327_2/5.jpg

The top image is from here:http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-news/8467550-online-breaking-news-nuclear-reactor-explosion/image/75100052-file-photo-of-the-inside-of-reactor-no-4-at-the-fukushima-daiichi-nuclear-plant-in"

 

[artax]

Looks to be to the side to me...

OK yes, so the SFP is to the right of the hole I agree, and the steam is coming from the SFP under the green crane pictured in the above post by AW. It would be nice to get diagrammes now of the fukushima plant and rooms/spaces inside reactors 1-4, with an overlay of the outer panels in relation.

 

[rhody]

Astronuc,

If someone suspects they have inhaled plutonium, are there medical or radiological tests to confirm it ?

Faecal monitoring is one of the best methods, if not the most pleasant. Also urine monitoring & nasal swabs.

Thanks curie,

So these methods can detect all radio-isotopes, (plutonium, cesium, etc...) in soft tissue, like the lung, thyroid, etc... ?

Rhody...

 

[TCups]

OK yes, so the SFP is to the right of the hole I agree, and the steam is coming from the SFP under the green crane pictured in the above post by AW. It would be nice to get diagrammes now of the fukushima plant and rooms/spaces inside reactors 1-4, with an overlay of the outer panels in relation.

Annotated from the AP Photos here:

https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=3218801&postcount=2012

The red lines have been added as my interpretation of the level of the top floor (reactor access, top of SFP's). Compare damage above and below each reference line and damage to the roof, Buildings 3, 4.

South Elevation
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn270/tcups/SouthElevation.png

West Elevation
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn270/tcups/WestElevation.png

East Elevation
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn270/tcups/EastElevation.png

Top, down
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn270/tcups/Top.png

 

[jensjakob]

Hi,

I think there are 3 levels of panels, so the red line should be one panel lower.

When I count on this picture
https://www.physicsforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=33707&d=1301478930
and this
http://b.bimg.dk/node-images/929/3/620x411-c/3929977-pix-fukushima-vrket.jpg
I get the 3 level of panels above work-floor.

B'regards
Jens Jakob

 

[rasherz]

Hi, long time listener, first time caller. I'm currently living in Japan, pretty far from danger but concerned about the water and food becoming contaminated. I don't want to sound political but, in today's press conference the TOEPC spokesman only mentioned iodine levels (good news because of the short half life), no mention of cesium. Does anyone have an explanation for this?

 

[|Fred]

Hi rasherz , Help from someone fluent in Japanese listening to the Tepco press point would be lovely , welcome to the thread .
I'm not sure that I can answer you question , but I would like to mention that tepco is mostly monitoring radiation in regards to the plants.

Heath related issue ie isotopes found in the air of cities in watter etc.. Is done by gov agency and non gov agency.. So the tepco press conference would not be in my opinion the best place to get info you are looking for.

 

[TCups]

Hi,

I think there are 3 levels of panels, so the red line should be one panel lower.

B'regards
Jens Jakob

Jens:

Three levels of panels where? At the top floor? I think there are two above, but could be wrong. Doesn't change the reference line with respect to comparison of damages above vs below, though, right? More damage in the lower sections of Bldg 4 with much less overall damage to the roof top of Bldg 4 the way I see it. Corrections?

http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn270/tcups/Top2Levels.png

http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn270/tcups/SouthUnit4.png

Sure looks like the smoke/steam is coming from the floor above and the water is being sprayed at that level, too.

 

[AntonL]

Hi, long time listener, first time caller. I'm currently living in Japan, pretty far from danger but concerned about the water and food becoming contaminated. I don't want to sound political but, in today's press conference the TOEPC spokesman only mentioned iodine levels (good news because of the short half life), no mention of cesium. Does anyone have an explanation for this?

Iodine gets concentrated into your thyroid and is mored dangerous and where you have iodine you will also have cesium.

Cesium looks like potassium (thats why you get potassium-iodine tablets two in one) and is distributed throughout your body and like potassium, cesium is excreted from the body fairly quickly

but read about it here it is better explained
http://www.evs.anl.gov/pub/doc/Cesium.pdf
http://www.evs.anl.gov/pub/doc/Iodine.pdf
http://www.evs.anl.gov/pub/doc/Plutonium.pdf

and here is the complete list of all possible elements
http://www.evs.anl.gov/pub/doc/ANL_ContaminantFactSheets_All_070418.pdf

rasherz look after yourself and stay safe

 

[morningperson]

What's the problem with Tc-99m having 6 hour half life?

It means the Tc-99m was produced within six hours prior to detection.

 

[artax]

It means the Tc-99m was produced within six hours prior to detection.

sorry but it doesn't, it could have been produced up to many times the half life ago. it depends on your detectio limit and amount produced.
basically if 1kg was produced after 6hrs there'd be 1/2kg, then after six more 1/4 after 6more 1/8.
so after x half lives there's 1/(2^x) where ^ means to the power.

 

[rasherz]

Hi rasherz , Help from someone fluent in Japanese listening to the Tepco press point would be lovely , welcome to the thread .
I'm not sure that I can answer you question , but I would like to mention that tepco is mostly monitoring radiation in regards to the plants.

Heath related issue ie isotopes found in the air of cities in watter etc.. Is done by gov agency and non gov agency.. So the tepco press conference would not be in my opinion the best place to get info you are looking for.

I'm just living here, my Japanese is ok, but the technical vocabulary is a bit difficult to follow. Also to be honest, I'm getting better information from here. My wife is Japanese and I'm giving her updates based on what's on this forum, well ahead of the news. There's still a lot of smoke and mirrors going on. No mention on TV about the smoke coming from the second plant 12 kms south, as far as I know. It's hard to decide what's just sensationalism in the western media and what is being spoon fed to us by TOEPC a few days late. So far so good with this forum.
Thanks guys.

 

[jensjakob]

Jens:

Three levels of panels where? At the top floor? I think there are two above, but could be wrong. Doesn't change the reference line with respect to comparison of damages above vs below, though, right? More damage in the lower sections of Bldg 4 with much less overall damage to the roof top of Bldg 4 the way I see it. Corrections?

http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn270/tcups/Top2Levels.png

I would say 3 levels above groundfloor. 1 level standing on the west-side, 2 levels fallen to the ground.

Am searching all I can for pictures from inside - that can give the clues.

This picture shows 3 levels of panels, but it looks like it is a different construction (lighter) then #3 :-(
http://img.ibtimes.com/www/data/images/full/2011/03/14/74158-fukushima-daiichi-reactor.jpg

Allthough this image:
http://www.pmw.de/pm_online/data/PCP_deutsche-betonpumpe-fukushima-504x378.jpg
could support the theory that there are only 2 levels above the refueling deck

 

[artax]

yes unit one, the first to explode was smaller output and different wall design by the looks of things, where have they removed panels of unit 2 to avoid a future explosion like the others? is it the one in the side, quite low down? emanating steam? and is it above the fuel pool?

 

[TCups]

I would say 3 levels above groundfloor. 1 level standing on the west-side, 2 levels fallen to the ground.

Am searching all I can for pictures from inside - that can give the clues.

This picture shows 3 levels of panels, but it looks like it is a different construction (lighter) then #3 :-(
http://img.ibtimes.com/www/data/images/full/2011/03/14/74158-fukushima-daiichi-reactor.jpg

Jens:

I believe Units 3, 4 have two levels of concrete columns, reinforced, to bear the weight of the overhead crane. At 3, the north end wall has collapsed, and the crane fell below. I believe the original square hole on the north face of Bldg 4 was below the level of the reactor access floor.

 

[Astronuc]

Two panels sit above the reactor service floor according to https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=3193009&postcount=305 (AtomicWombat, page 20, post #305). See also the ridge at the bottom of the two panels.

See also images:

Tcups, page 21, #330
various on page 23
jinxdone, page 24, #381
Tcups, page 29, #463

The third set of panels sit below the ridge and below the reactor service floor. A blast out at the third level could mean damage to the SFP.

 

[Gilles]

sorry but it doesn't, it could have been produced up to many times the half life ago. it depends on your detectio limit and amount produced.
basically if 1kg was produced after 6hrs there'd be 1/2kg, then after six more 1/4 after 6more 1/8.
so after x half lives there's 1/(2^x) where ^ means to the power.

and as I said it is a daughter nuclide of Mo-99, which has a longer half-life (66 h) so actually it rather tracks the presence of its parent. But still 66 h is a rather short period compared to 20 days.

 

[artax]

there's some reasonable reactor workings animation here, doesn't really explain where the H2 explosions were though!
still pretty useful stuff.

http://edition.cnn.com/interactive/2011/03/world/interactive.nuclear.japan/index.html

oh, and I think you can ignore the cyclical behaviour of radiation in the dose/time graph!

 

[DrDu]

It means the Tc-99m was produced within six hours prior to detection.

No, it doesn't because Tc 99m is formed in the decay of Mo 99, which has about 3 days half-life time (I ignore whether Mo 99 has some other long lived precursor). Gilles pointed that out, too, in a mail which overlapped mine. After 20 days there will still be about 0.6 % of Mo99 be left, which is enough to produce large quantities of Tc.

Edit: Seems Gilles was again faster than I :-)

 

[AntonL]

No, it doesn't because Tc 99m is formed in the decay of Mo 99, which has about 3 days half-life time (I ignore whether Mo 99 has some other long lived precursor). Gilles pointed that out, too, in a mail which overlapped mine. After 20 days there will still be about 0.6 % of Mo99 be left, which is enough to produce large quantities of Tc.

Edit: Seems Gilles was again faster than I :-)

After 20 days there will still be about 0.6 % of Mo99 be left, which is enough to produce large quantities of Tc. hey thanks for this explanation, this now clears many things in my mind

 

[artax]

Yes,me too thanks DRdu !, I haven't done much with understanding grow and decay of daughter products!

 

[Astronuc]

Hi, long time listener, first time caller. I'm currently living in Japan, pretty far from danger but concerned about the water and food becoming contaminated. I don't want to sound political but, in today's press conference the TOEPC spokesman only mentioned iodine levels (good news because of the short half life), no mention of cesium. Does anyone have an explanation for this?

Iodine is a concern because of the uptake to the thyroid gland which is pretty sensitive.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thyroid

I'm not sure about the pancreas.

Cs would also be important to know.

The further away from Fukushima, the lower the risk of contamination. The winds (jet stream) tend to blow west to east, but there are times when they can north or south, and a little bit westward, i.e., NNW or SSW.

I would expect that the other plants, e.g., Tohoku Electric's Onagawa and Higashidori plants are monitoring activity to the north, and JAPCO's Tokai plants to the south. What do they report?

 

[liamdavis]

Correct me if I am wrong but my understanding is that pure water does not become radioactive. Rather, it emits radioactivity from material that is suspended or in solution in it. Hence the steam in the turbine, having recently been in the reactor, presents no radiological safety problem. That this is accomplished by the action of a “water polisher” employing HEPA and carbon filters in the primary (RV) coolant loop.

Where I am leading is that the polishing units in the plants may be inoperable and, if operable, may be in an environment where they cannot safely be serviced. However, the function of a water polisher could be employed outside of the plant to separate radioactive material from the water in the trench and from water they are proposing to store in tanks at a remote location on site. These tanks are described as being piped to each of the buildings for temporary water storage.

My thought is to employ one or several water polishing units to separate the non-radioactive water and dispose of it in the sea. This would lessen the difficulty caused by finite storage capacity and allow more discretionary use of water for cooling. It could later be employed in the remediation of ground water at the test wells used for sampling.

More when I have had some sleep.
liam

 

[artax]

wonder how many picrutes that bloody drone's taken, and how many have been released to the 'general public' who just don't understand these things and will panic!
I want to see more, where's that Assange bloke when you need him!

 

[artax]

Correct me if I am wrong but my understanding is that pure water does not become radioactive. Rather, it emits radioactivity from material that is suspended or in solution in it. Hence the steam in the turbine, having recently been in the reactor, presents no radiological safety problem. That this is accomplished by the action of a “water polisher” employing HEPA and carbon filters in the primary (RV) coolant loop.

Where I am leading is that the polishing units in the plants may be inoperable and, if operable, may be in an environment where they cannot safely be serviced. However, the function of a water polisher could be employed outside of the plant to separate radioactive material from the water in the trench and from water they are proposing to store in tanks at a remote location on site. These tanks are described as being piped to each of the buildings for temporary water storage.

My thought is to employ one or several water polishing units to separate the non-radioactive water and dispose of it in the sea. This would lessen the difficulty caused by finite storage capacity and allow more discretionary use of water for cooling. It could later be employed in the remediation of ground water at the test wells used for sampling.

More when I have had some sleep. liam

I'm pretty sure it's not just suspended solids that become radioactive, it's any soluble ions too which is why de ionised water is used.
However I'm pretty sure the 'polishers' will be ion exchange filters or resins and will be able to 'remove' the majority of radiation from the water.

The problem is the collection of the water after it's been pumped into the building,... beacuse like the missing fuel at chernobyl... they've no idea where it's going as there's no seals/containment anymore!

 

[jensjakob]

On the drone pictures, I can't find the "fuel rods" that was pointed out on the ground by TCups in the early image analysis.

Meaning either I can't see them, or they have been moved - meaning that someone knows what they were.

 

[TCups]

BEFORE & AFTER
(just for grins)
The before from : DigitalGlobe.com
The after from post #2009, as referenced by Fred

http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn270/tcups/BeforeAfter.jpg

Comments:

@Jens:
I can't place much significance to the white rods (what ever they are) detailed in the first helicopter fly by vs not seeing them well in the satellite and drone images. The speculation that they could be loose fuel rods ejected from SFP3 has not been substantiated.

@Astronuc:
Thanks for confirmation - two tiers of concrete columns frame the reactor access floor at the top of Bldg 3, 4. Damage to the SFP4 below the level of the reactor access floor (ie, out the side or bottom of SFP4) and into the lower levels of Bldg 4 might be one explanation to the apparent intensity of the explosion in the lower floors. As has been suggested by another poster (JoeN?), in a cold shutdown with fuel removed, a lot of heavy doors otherwise closed during operation may have been left open.