China-Japan Soccer Rivalry: World Cup Consequences?

[Smurf]

"Arguing about the rules that state that you have to kill the enemy in a nice way is just plain stupid."

No it's not. What about weapons that increase suffering without increasing efficiency (i.e. serrated blades, in the rules of war since ww1) or weapons that have a high chance of inflicting civilian casualties as well (Chem, Bio, Nuke)?

On what grounds do you call these "stupid"?

 

[Daminc]

In the 'liberation' of Iraq how many civilians have died because of weapons that are allowed within the Geneva Convention. How many have been permantly injured/maimed? e.g. bombs and rifles?

One of the stated missions of changing from 7.62 to 5.56 was for the purpose to seriously injure the enemy instead of killing them with the logic of taking more people out of the combat area (1 injured, 2 to carry, 1 medic to treat, medicine, fuel etc). It wasn't about taking the enemy out 'humanely' it was about draining the enemies resources.

One of the points I was trying to make is that there is no humane way to kill another human being. Sure, there are degrees of suffering but that inevitable regardless of any Convention.

In terms of priorities in a field of war a CO would like to win a war without any conflict.
If a conflict is inevitable then the priority is defeating the enemy as quickly as possible with the least amount of casualties of those under his/her command. That's it.

The Convention is primarily for the politicians.

Inflicting civilian casualties is highly counter productive and unnecessary and that is why, at least from my experience in the British Army, everything is done to minimise this occurring. However, if there is an enemy contact then they are to be passified as quickly and efficiently as possible. If they surrender then they are no longer a threat to the troops and are treated accordingly.

At no point is the Geneva Convention quoted. They just do the job they're trained for as best they can. It's the politicians and the people who are not in the line of fire and who are never likely to be in that circumstance who have the luxury of discussing ways to kill someone in a nice and 'non-messy' manner.

That's why I call it "stupid".

 

[Anttech]

yeh well not every army is as well trained as the brittish army...

One of the points I was trying to make is that there is no humane way to kill another human being. Sure, there are degrees of suffering but that inevitable regardless of any Convention.

this is counter-intuative? IMHO The more suffering the more inhumane the death, right?

 

[The Smoking Man]

The treatment of prisoners I agree with. You should always respect your opponent and treat him/her accordingly.

However, using an artilery shell that fragments into pieces that shred people (some get killed, some don't) isn't humane no matter how you spin it. Nothing about war is humane so I'll say again: "Arguing about the rules that state that you have to kill the enemy in a nice way is just plain stupid."

Maybe you aren't quite getting it yet, D.

Unit 731, 100 - Inhuman WMD Biological Warfare

This WMD Biological Warfare is definitely the worst crime case of systematic biological massacre against Humanity committed by a country in our Human History.

"The fellow knew that it was over for him, and so he didn't struggle." recalled the old former medical assistant of a Japanese Army unit in China in World War II, "But when I picked up the scalpel that's when he began screaming. I cut him open from the chest to the stomach, and he screamed terribly, and his face was all twisted in agony. He made this unimaginable sound, he was screaming so horribly. But then finally he stopped." The former medical assistant who insisted on anonymity, explained the reason for the vivisection. The Chinese prisoner had been deliberately infected with the plague as part of a research project.

Imperial Japan's biological killing fields are a lost chapter of history that the full horror of which is only recently been exposed and understood in all its enormity.

Japan set up Headquarters of Unit 731 in Ping Fan near Harbin and Unit 100 in ChangChun, and Mukden, now called SunYang, in China to develop plague bombs for use in WWII. The base was disguised as Epidemic Prevention and Water Supply Unit. The complex in Ping Fan was completed in 1939, contained more than 150 buildings, including 2 secret prisons and 3 crematoria, and was the largest WMD Biological Weapon research center in the world.

After infecting him, the researchers decided to cut him open alive, tear him apart, organ by organ, to see what the disease does to a man's inside. Often no anesthetic was used, he said, out of concern that it might have an effect on the results.

From July 1993 to Dec. 1994, the "Unit 731 Exhibition" toured Japan and presented at 61 locations over the course of one and half year. It had sent shockwaves throughout Japan. Hal Gold had collected many testimonies in his book "Unit 731: Testimony; Japan's Wartime Human Experimentation and the Post-War Cover-Up". One of the testimonies was provided by an aged former Japanese doctor Kurumizawa Masakuni :

The Chinese woman victim had regained her consciousness while being vivisected alive.
" She opened her eyes. "
" And then ? "
" She hollered. "
" What did she say ? "
Kurumizawa could not answer, then began weeping feebly and murmured,
" I don't want to think about it again. "
The interviewee apologized, waited a few seconds, and tried again for an answer.
He gave it through sobs.
" She said, "It's all right to kill me, but please spare my child's life."

Japanese Dr. Kanisawa testified in NBC Dateline "Factory of Death: Unit 731" in Aug. 15, 1995, the live un-anesthetized dissection was a routine common practice in all units.

"The 1st time, I was very hesitant to do what I was told to do.
The 2nd time, you get used to it.
The 3rd time, you more or less volunteered."

Yoshio Shinozuka, a former member of Unit 731 said "The first time, my legs were shaking so badly I could hardly stand up". He knew the person on the operating table, " At the vivisection, I could not meet his eyes because of the hate he had in his glare at me."

"We called the victims ‘logs’," he said, "We didn’t want to think of them as people. We didn’t want to admit that we were taking lives. So we convinced ourselves that what we were doing was like cutting down a tree. When you see someone in that state, you just can’t move. Your mind goes blank. The fear is overwhelming." said Yoshio.

The research program was one of the great secrets of Japan during and after World War II : a vast project to develop weapons of WMD Biological Warfare including following deadly diseases :

Bubonic Plague Anthrax (including inhalation,
skin and gastrointestinal types)
Smallpox Typhoid
Paratyphoid A and B Tularemia
Cholera Epidemic Hemorrhagic Fever
Syphilis Aerosols
Botulism Brucellosis
Dysentery Tetanus
Glanders Tuberculosis
Yellow fever Typhus
Tularemia Gas Gangrene
Scarlet Sever Songo
Diphtheria Brysipelas
Selmonella Venereal Diseases
Infectious Jaundice Undulant Fever
Epidemic Cerebrospinal Meningitis Tick Encephalitis
Plant diseases for crop destruction Dozen other pathogens​

Unit 731 & Unit 100 were comprised of over 3,000 researchers and technicians. It was a gigantic research center focused on WMD Biological Weapons - the world's most technically advanced at the time, used human as the guinea pigs, known as marutas (logs). The Japanese told the locals that the facilities were lumber mills.

The Ping Fan facility alone could monthly "manufacture as much as 300 kg of plague bacteria... 500-600 kg of anthrax germs, 800-900 kg typhoid, paratyphoid, or dysentery germs, or as much as 1000 kg of cholera germs." If several different diseases were manufactured simultaneously, then the total production of pathogens could be many times higher.

A former member of Unit 731 testified that "to eliminate any chance of leaking out the secret of construction of the 'Square Buildings' by the laborers, they are all sent to special prison and used as the first batch of test objects."

More than 10,000 Chinese, Korean and Russian PoWs were slaughtered in these biological experiments.

The vivisection was routinely used for practicing various kinds of surgery says Dr. Ken Yuasa, a former Japanese doctor working in China during the War. First an appendectomy, then an amputation of an arm and finally a tracheotomy. When they finished practicing, they killed the victim with an injection. "I was evil. I was a devil," Dr. Ken Yuasa says sadly. "We all were." Morimura Seiichi describes in explicit details of vivisection in his book "The Devouring Monster".

Medical researchers also locked up diseased prisoners with healthy ones, to see how readily various diseases would spread.

To determine how much pressure the body can withstand, some were put inside a pressure chamber would suffer terrible agony before their eyes pop out from their sockets and blood forced out through their skin.

Marutas were denied food or water to determine the maximum length of survival, or mummified alive in total dehydration experiments. Some were put into hot water and gradually increase the temperature to study degree of burns and the relationship between temperature and survival.

To determine the treatment of frostbite, prisoners were taken outside in freezing weather and left with exposed arms, periodically drenched with water until frozen solid. The arm was later amputated, the doctors would repeat the process on the victim's upper arm to the shoulder. After both arms were gone, the doctors moved on to the legs until only a head and torso remained. The victim was then used for plague and pathogens experiments.

That is just a 'taste' of what was done.

If you can equate this with what happened in Nagasaki and Hiroshima then I have several reams more and then we can get into the other Units in the Japanes Biowarfare group.

After that, we can have a run through the Nanjing Massacre and Chi Chi Island where the soldiers were actually executed for http://www.pacificwrecks.com/restore/museum/japanese/chi-chi-jima.html .

And http://www.flanews.com/archives2001/1207jeb2.htm .

Jeb Bush's Hero
by Victoria Langley

Friday December 7th, 2001​

Speaking at the dedication of the museum of Florida history's new "Florida remembers World War II" exhibit in Tallahassee, Governor Jeb Bush recognized the greatest generation. Jeb Bush says his hero is his father, the former President George Bush, who was nearly captured by enemy forces in World War II.

"In fact my dad didn't talk too much about what he did and in fact that's a common feature of this incredible generation. My dad was shot down in the Pacific in shark-infested waters, the Japanese garrison in a nearby island (Chi Chi Jima)was out to pick him up, he was on a raft, his two crew members had died, he was 19 years old, he was probably pretty scared and a submarine picked him up and I didn't know til last year in all honesty that the rest of the story is that that garrison commander on that island, that Japanese garrison commander was sentenced to death for war crimes for cannibalism. They ate the prisoners on that island to boost the moral of the Japanese troops. Now those stories are told over and over and over again, perhaps wisely amongst themselves, but it's important for us to understand and appreciate the valor and the courage and the duty-bound nature of a generation of people that didn't ask questions." said Bush.

Cannibalism and vivisection of allied flyers by the Japanese is quite well documented. Kyushu Imperial University officials, for example, have acknowledged vivisecting eight B-29 crewmen in experiments carried out on May 17, 23, 29 and June 3, 1945.

The experiments were arranged by the Western Japan Military Command and Prof. Fukujiroh Ishiyama, director of external medicine at the university.

In one experiment, Ishiyama extracted an American PoW's lungs and placed them in a surgical pan. He made an incision in the lung artery and allowed blood to flow into the chest cavity, killing the man. In another experiment, Ishiyama removed a prisoner's stomach, then cut five ribs and held a large artery near the heart to determine how long he could stop the blood flow before the victim died. In a third, another Japanese doctor made four openings in a prisoner's skull and inserted a knife into the brain to see what the reaction would be.

The prisoner died.

(from Ienaga, 1968, citing a Japanese publication, The Degradation of Wartime Medicine: the Complete Story on Human Vivisection by Hirako Goichi)

http://home.comcast.net/~winjerd/Page05.htm

"Kill-All Order" of August 1, 1944
War Ministry, Tokyo​

When the battle situation becomes urgent the POWs will be concentrated and confined in their location and kept under heavy guard until preparations for the final disposition will be made. Although the basic aim is to act under superior orders, individual disposition may be made in certain circumstances. Whether they are destroyed individually or in groups, and whether it is accomplished by means of mass bombing, poisonous smoke, poisons, drowning, or decapitation, dispose of them as the situation dictates. It is the aim not to allow the escape of a single one, to annihilate them all, and not to leave any traces.

The Protocol for the Prohibition of the Use in War of Asphyxiating, Poisonous or other Gases, and of Bacteriological Methods of Warfare, usually called the Geneva Protocol, is a treaty to ban the use of chemical and biological weapons. It was signed at Geneva on June 17, 1925 and was entered into force on February 8, 1928.

http://www.state.gov/t/ac/trt/4784.htm Signed by every member of the league of nations including Japan.

 

[Daminc]

Those sort of experiments is something I can't fathom. If the argument is about getting perpertrators of these act to trail then I would agree.

I've trained quite a lot in dealing with NBC environments and injuries (Nuclear, Biological and Chemical) and I find it hard to understand how anybody could experiement on another human being with these (I get angry with the thought of experimenting with animals with these).

I was discussing an issue with a friend of mine and he was saying that the Japanese regarded soldier who surrended as less than animals therefore they were treated as such. Reports of 2 british soldiers who carried on fighting against overwhelming odds until one was killed and the other seriously injured. The one that survived was treated with a high degree of respect. I don't know how true this is but it might be worth considering.

Trying to understand the mindset of another person, especially if that person has done you a great wrong, is the first step of reconsiliation.

 

[misskitty]

Getting beheaded is the most unhonorable way to die. Japan new that, and that's why they killed using that specific method.

The Japanese considered beheading an honourable way to die. Which sources did you consult that stated otherwise? I'm just curious.

~Kitty

 

[misskitty]

What about Taiwan, Vietnam, Tibet, and Mongolia?

Prometheus, my knowledge of the events in Asia are rather limited. I am familiar with the cruel disgusting events in Tibet, but I know very very little about the events that transpired in Taiwan, Vietnam, and Mongolia. Could you provide a small synopsis please?

I do know there were atrocities which took place in those countries at the Chinese hand. I agree with your examples in previous posts. Mongolia and Vietnam remain soverign nations. As was Tibet until the mid 1940's. Thus whatever the Chinese inflicted upon them would constitute an attack on another nation.

Dagenais, how do these not fit your request for examples? They were attacks on independent and soverign nations.

~Kitty

 

[misskitty]

uhhhh... I disagree. WW1? Nazism? Fascism? Stalinism? The countless deaths European Imperialism caused. I don't know how historical you want to get, so I'll just include everything... The Spanish and English practically wiped out indigenous Americans who are only now beginning to numerally recover (only to have their culture destroyed). More than 20% of the world's population lived and died under the rule of the Roman Empire at it's height, and Rome didn't exactly work hard to keep people alive, or free.

Agreed. Don't forget the Spanish Inquistition or the feud between the Catholics and the Protestants in Ireland. Those have taken the lives of many westerners.

 

[The Smoking Man]

Prometheus, my knowledge of the events in Asia are rather limited. I am familiar with the cruel disgusting events in Tibet, but I know very very little about the events that transpired in Taiwan, Vietnam, and Mongolia. Could you provide a small synopsis please?

I do know there were atrocities which took place in those countries at the Chinese hand. I agree with your examples in previous posts. Mongolia and Vietnam remain soverign nations. As was Tibet until the mid 1940's. Thus whatever the Chinese inflicted upon them would constitute an attack on another nation.

Dagenais, how do these not fit your request for examples? They were attacks on independent and soverign nations.

~Kitty

If that is your entire knowledge of what went on in Tibet, then I would consider it severely limited.

In 1907, it was verified by the British and the Russians that China was the owner of Tibet.

In 1911 however, the Chinese withdrew their troops to handle the Revolution that was under way.

Mongolia!? I am not sure if you understand that the 'Great Wall' was built to keep the Mongolians OUT. It was Ghengis Kahn who eventually invaded and not only unified China but added his ownership of Mongolia to the mix.

This was in fact when the Chinese became known as 'The Han'.

Ironically, the mention of Taiwan or Formosa was your downfall in all of this.

You see, it is enshrined in the constitution of the KMT just what it is that the current administration of China owns by right of succession ... the international law that governs what passes from the rulers of nations when another ruler takes over.

Here is the text of the constitution of Taiwan and article 26 states:

Article 26
The National Assembly shall be composed of the following Delegates:
1. One Delegate shall be elected from each County, Municipality, or area of equivalent status. In case the population of the electoral district exceeds 500,000, one additional Delegate shall be elected for each additional 500,000. The election of Delegates representing areas equivalent in status to the County or Municipality shall be prescribed by law.
2. Delegates to represent Mongolia shall be elected on the basis of four for each League and one for each Special Banner.
3. The number of Delegates to be elected from Tibet shall be prescribed by law.
4. The number of Delegates to be elected by various ethnic groups in frontier regions shall be prescribed by law.
5. The number of Delegates to be elected by Chinese citizens residing abroad shall be prescribed by law.
6. The number of Delegates to be elected by occupational groups shall be prescribed by law.
7. The number of Delegates to be elected by women's organizations shall be prescribed by law.

I suggest you read the Chinese take on the issue located http://www.tibet-china.org/historical_status/english/content.html and ask yourself WHY it is that the UN stays out of it while calling it an 'internal' issue.

Now I would really like to hear your 'take' on the subject of a country, occupied by the Chinese since 1951 who were 'fired upon' by supposed Buddhists!?

What is the Eight Fold Path to you and what is so strange about Buddhists firing guns at people?

Yes, now the man who staged a failed military coup in 1959 somehow has you convinced that he is the prince of peace? :rofl:

 

[The Smoking Man]

The Japanese considered beheading an honourable way to die. Which sources did you consult that stated otherwise? I'm just curious.

~Kitty

The act of Seppuku was an honourable way to die.

The use of a 'second' to behead you was to prevent you from crying out and disgracing yourself.

Beheading in the second world war was used to test the family blade.

Many of the pictures we have from the Nanjing Massacre are of Japanese servicemen taken with the heads they had removed with their family swords that had been shortened for the purpose of the war.

You can recognize them as what appears to be holiday snaps: (Warning ... nasty)

http://www.travelchinaguide.com/picture/jiangsu/nanjing/nanjing-massacre/a000023.htm
http://www.travelchinaguide.com/picture/jiangsu/nanjing/nanjing-massacre/a000028.htm

 

[Orwell's Ghost]

If China

For a science forum thread based on boos at a soccer match, this thread get's pretty nitty gritty. Congratulations, after reading several threads, I have finally written my first post on this website, which I might add, is very cool as I am a fan of science.

War is never nice. Let's get that out of the way. Sometimes innocent civilians are caught in the middle of a war they did not start. I do not condone the actions taken at Hiroshima or Nagasaki. A horrible act designed to do one thing, kill many and end japanese participation in a war in which America was forced into reluctantly. America was not the instigator of that war, the congress at that time resembled the congress of today except there were probably less marxist moles in the congress at that point in time. Today, forget about it and hope you can slowly fix things next election, and the next, and the next.

I personally feel that an oath of office is outdated. We need to question our future leaders with truth serum and lie detectors to be sure they are not our enemy or aiding our enemy. Wait, that would probably disqualify all of our politicians.

I wonder if any of the contempt between china and nihon was due to the sino-japanese war of 1894 in which china was defeated within a single year (in 1895) by the japanese and forced to give up many things they didn't want to give up. The war, I believe, initially started over Korea because japan feared russian expansion into northern china and korea, a China tributary at the time. This was also the point in history when the Chinese Imperial Government was forced to cede sovereignty over taiwan to the japanese. As you know, china didn't like that, and I'm sure there are still people in positions of power in the PRC that despise Japan for this very fact. The second sino-japanese war was ended, by whom? You got it, the evil Americans, who defeated the japanese in 1945 thus ending the japanese invasion of china. China unfortunately became communist four years later creating a whole new problem entirely, and to me, truly rivals US hegemony or possibly surpasses the US with the exception of military might, but that too is closing in.

China, I fear, will combine might with their simpatico comrades (like they already have) to the north and their muslim friends (saddam called for his communist allies to come to his aid in a speech during the beginning of the US invasion of Iraq which I found in several US papers) to defeat the hegemon known as America, the last big hurdle communism must pass before they can control us all. As an american, all I can really do is vote for the lesser of two liars. We have two main parties in america, Democommies and republicommies. Pick one and get the other. Maybe we should have voted for Gore, after all, he did invent the internet. lmao :rofl:

Personally I hope the person many people in Russia call a kook beats Putin in their next election, that person is kasperov. You chess people should know the name, he is the best in the world. I would be able to sleep better knowing china and russia were not so cozy plotting world domination together. I am slightly concerned about BRIC as well, as China is obviously leveraging itself for a war that will take place between our three great nations very soon (China, Russia & America). Blair I do not trust. Bush I do not trust, how can I, our borders are wide open, and for a sinister reason i fear. How can you be in war and leave your borders unsecured? It doesn't add up. Our "minute men" are considered vigilantes for doing what our federal government is supposed to provide, our defense.

Please see this link for more on BRIC
http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/bline/2003/10/27/stories/2003102700230900.htm

(BRIC =Brazil, Russia, India, China)

China will deny it, I'm sure, but is it a coincidence that the panama canal and the bahamas port are controlled by the same company, Hutchison Whampoa? I think not, especially with chinese spies being one of America's hottest national security threats. This is all quite blatantly obvious to those with an iq over 130. Luckily for communists, many "useful idiots" as Lenin refers to them, do not qualify for this bracket of intelligence and believe what they are told by our own great media propaganda mills. Yeah, I know, it's supposed to look like the bahamas port will only be used for shipping their cheap junk to america, but what of it's militarily strategic importance or that of the panama canal? There are links between Hutchison Whampoa and the PRC. Only a useful idiot would believe companies doing business in china can do so without authority from the PRC. Look at the stockholders of these chinese businesses which make up the new "capitalist-communist" company hybrids, they are mainly communist party hacks and cronies. You will conduct business their way or no way, and many companies nowadays look only at profit and not for the benefit of america. China intends to own the means of production and manufacture on the world, as you are starting the see the effects now. We will soon be buying most of our own munitions from china. Scary, you bet. Wise, certainly not. With chinese and russian spies everywhere in america, I fear for us all. Chinese, Russian, Pakistani, American, Indians and the Japanese, who may just do the right thing this time and join the right side of a world war to defeat global communism. Or am I just dreaming?

I have friends of all nationalities and am by no means racist or one-sided. Communism is never the answer to anything except for maybe how to kill many,... or re-educate them, whichever term you prefer, ultimately ending with the same result.

I really wouldn't care what goes on in China if I knew for certain that China does not mean us any harm. This could happen. And Palestinians keeping a peace treaty could happen too, with about the same likelihood. Or perhaps a small monkey flying out of my rectum could be equally as likely to happen.

All right you pro-marxists, please pick me to shreds now. So others can see the real you.

 

[Smurf]

Is Kasperov really running?

 

[Orwell's Ghost]

Kasperov

He threw his hat into the ring earlier this year. The "state" media and their like are passing him off as a kook though. It's hard telling how things will end up.

Gary Kasperov was recently attacked by someone posing as a fan. Had kasperov sign his chess board, then whacked him with it. From what I read, it wasn't your standard flimsy chessboard either.

Hopefully now he will be more cautious as there are obviously those that do not want to see him run.

 

[outsider]

Someone called in the big guns Welcome to the discussion Orwell.

You make some very good points and I think you are right on about the 2 political parties in America. You may want to join another discussion currently running about "America poised for world domination".

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=84852

As for this thread, I don't really know where this is going to lead to anymore, but I think we can all agree that this attack on China was unecessary and unjustified. Japan not admitting fault or trying to deny fault will affect the relations between the two countries for as long as either country continues to bring it up. China is not a country known for forgetting anything as they have one of the oldest historical records.

All this will result in booing of Japanese athletes. This is only understandable as booing is a sporting tactic called home court advantage.

I don't know where else this discussion will lead to but I come to read it every so often to see if there are any interesting points I can learn from other PFers.

 

[The Smoking Man]

I really wouldn't care what goes on in China if I knew for certain that China does not mean us any harm. This could happen. And Palestinians keeping a peace treaty could happen too, with about the same likelihood. Or perhaps a small monkey flying out of my rectum could be equally as likely to happen.

All right you pro-marxists, please pick me to shreds now. So others can see the real you.

Marxist!?

I live over here.

Last reference to Marx I saw over here was Duck Soup in a bootleg version of all the Marx Brothers movies on DVD.

I think the USA should stop trying to project their feelings on to the Chinese for a start.

The Chinese have observed how to win a war with the USA. They had good teachers in the Japanese.

The problem is, the USA wasn't aware there was a war on or that they lost it.

Wars are fought in the boardroom today folks.

You know, I think it was when Sony Pictures blocked the release of Return From the River Kwai in 1988 that you should have got your first clue.

You lost to Japan and now you are losing to China ... not a Marxist/Communist entity but a capitalist society with more connections to pure capitalism than the good ole' U S of A. After all, the Chinese don't have any socialist programs to cut into the bottom line.

Dude, there is more Communism and Socialism in America right now.

This is a Neocon wet dream over here ... Pure fascism being controlled by the Yuan and who has the most of it.

 

[Smurf]

I don't know where else this discussion will lead to but I come to read it every so often to see if there are any interesting points I can learn from other PFers.

Actually you're not an official "PFer" until you reach 500 posts. You're still a NPFer. Sorry.

 

[Smurf]

I personally feel that an oath of office is outdated. We need to question our future leaders with truth serum and lie detectors to be sure they are not our enemy or aiding our enemy. Wait, that would probably disqualify all of our politicians.

Judging from USA's definition of an 'enemy' that would disqualify anyone who isn't brainwashed to kow tow to the administration's every whim.

This was also the point in history when the Chinese Imperial Government was forced to cede sovereignty over taiwan to the japanese.

An interesting point I hadn't considered before. China lays claim to Taiwan as national territory, but there's a good half a decade where China recognized Taiwan as part of Japan's territory before they went to war again. Then after the war, the Communist government claims everything the old China had, and then some. Food for thought.

China, I fear, will combine might with their simpatico comrades (like they already have) to the north

Russians are simpatic to China? Oh COME ON! Those two havn't had decent relations since Mao.

and their muslim friends (saddam called for his communist allies to come to his aid in a speech during the beginning of the US invasion of Iraq which I found in several US papers) to defeat the hegemon known as America,

You may not realize this, but Saddam was probably sucking up at the time.
Oh, but you were right by assuming he speaks for all them muslims 'allies'.. you know.. considering he was a secular dictator and all.

the last big hurdle communism must pass before they can control us all. As an american, all I can really do is vote for the lesser of two liars. We have two main parties in america, Democommies and republicommies. Pick one and get the other. Maybe we should have voted for Gore, after all, he did invent the internet. lmao :rofl:

You remind me of the smurfs, only instead of replacing every 3rd word with 'smurf' you replace it with 'commie'.

Personally I hope the person many people in Russia call a kook beats Putin in their next election, that person is kasperov. You chess people should know the name, he is the best in the world. I would be able to sleep better knowing china and russia were not so cozy plotting world domination together.

You do realize that Russia, aside from having a lot of territory, isn't really that much of a threat these days? It's not even considered a developed country by some standards.

I am slightly concerned about BRIC as well, as China is obviously leveraging itself for a war that will take place between our three great nations very soon (China, Russia & America).

Russia is barely considered a developed nation! It's no where near it's power during the USSR years.

Blair I do not trust. Bush I do not trust,

From the sound of you I'd reckon you wouldn't trust Mother "Commie" Teresa either.

how can I, our borders are wide open, and for a sinister reason i fear. How can you be in war and leave your borders unsecured?

Well, you're not *at war* with anyone on your borders so... It seems pretty logical to me. I mean, unless you think Canada is going to turn Islam Theocracy tomorrow and declare war. Which, I won't deny, IS a possibility... It's just not... very likely... is all...

It doesn't add up. Our "minute men" are considered vigilantes for doing what our federal government is supposed to provide, our defense.

Yeah, in fact I think I saw something about Mexico planning to invade you next thursday.. or was that the rapture? These things are so confusing.

Regardless, I guess Mexico finally dealt with that little civil war they have going on there, no big deal really, only been going on for the last decade or so.

Please see this link for more on BRIC
http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/bline/2003/10/27/stories/2003102700230900.htm

(BRIC =Brazil, Russia, India, China)

First of all BRAZIL is moving in the exact opposite direction of China and India, you may have heard something about it, some internal strife resulting in Left Wing Radical governments... no?

China will deny it, I'm sure, but is it a coincidence that the panama canal and the bahamas port are controlled by the same company, Hutchison Whampoa? I think not,

Imagine that, a port and a canal owned by the same company... They're even in the same body of water! It MUST be a conspiracy!

especially with chinese spies being one of America's hottest national security threats.

Yeah those nasty Chinese Terr-um-spies! Those Muslim spie-um-suicidebombers don't even compare!

This is all quite blatantly obvious to those with an iq over 130.

Yeah, because politics is all about spatial awareness and logical mathematics.
[qupte]Luckily for communists, many "useful idiots" as Lenin refers to them, [/quote]Actually Lenin spoke russian.

do not qualify for this bracket of intelligence and believe what they are told by our own great media propaganda mills.

No argument from me there.

Yeah, I know, it's supposed to look like the bahamas port will only be used for shipping their cheap junk to america, but what of it's militarily strategic importance or that of the panama canal?

What about it?

There are links between Hutchison Whampoa and the PRC.

*gasp* and that's not the half of it! They also have links with the USA AND France!

Only a useful idiot would believe companies doing business in china can do so without authority from the PRC.

I disagree, that's more of a trait for useless idiots.

Look at the stockholders of these chinese businesses which make up the new "capitalist-communist" company hybrids, they are mainly communist party hacks and cronies.

Hey Ya! Just like Enron!

You will conduct business their way or no way, and many companies nowadays look only at profit and not for the benefit of america.

You might even think that they're capitalist. God forbid.

China intends to own the means of production and manufacture on the world, as you are starting the see the effects now. We will soon be buying most of our own munitions from china. Scary, you bet. Wise, certainly not.

It doesn't work that way, you don't have to buy anything from China unless it's owned by China, as it is there are American companies making stuff in China, they're still owned by American corporations.

With chinese and russian spies everywhere in america, I fear for us all.

Really? I just fear for you.

Chinese, Russian, Pakistani, American, Indians and the Japanese, who may just do the right thing this time and join the right side of a world war to defeat global communism. Or am I just dreaming?

The dreaming one.

I have friends of all nationalities and am by no means racist or one-sided.

No.. not at all...

Communism is never the answer to anything except for maybe how to kill many,... or re-educate them, whichever term you prefer, ultimately ending with the same result.

Yup
http://www.tnbonline.com/images/photos/cash.jpg

I really wouldn't care what goes on in China if I knew for certain that China does not mean us any harm. This could happen. And Palestinians keeping a peace treaty could happen too, with about the same likelihood. Or perhaps a small monkey flying out of my rectum could be equally as likely to happen.

or it growing lips...

All right you pro-marxists, please pick me to shreds now. So others can see the real you.

just FYI I'm an anarchist (before any misunderstandings happen)

 

[The Smoking Man]

Actually you're not an official "PFer" until you reach 500 posts. You're still a NPFer. Sorry.

Cool.

Ya mean I'm in then?

Heck, I was warned by Evo on about my third day out.

You mean there's no hazing like wearing underwear on my head, going down to the 7/11 and screaming "allah akbar this Mo Fo"?

Oh, sorry that was the Rush Limbaugh fan club ... Never mind.

 

[Smurf]

Cool.

Yes it is

Ya mean I'm in then?

Sure.

Heck, I was warned by Evo on about my third day out.

You always did get along with the ladies

You mean there's no hazing like wearing underwear on my head, going down to the 7/11 and screaming "allah akbar this Mo Fo"?

Geeze man, I don't know. I just made it up as part of my recent newb-bashing scheme

Oh, sorry that was the Rush Limbaugh fan club ... Never mind.

Funny.

 

[Orwell's Ghost]

Please let me apologize if I came off sounding like I want a world war to occur. That is not what I am hoping for. I am just concerned with the amount of heat I feel radiating off of china at the moment, from their massive buildup of weaponry to the enlargement of their naval force. Espionage and media contro, yeah, throw that it too.

I am glad to hear that china is such a capitalist powerhouse these days. I am surprised the chinese would actually accept that label be utilized. They are not capitalist, but let's get to that later.

They do want to control the means of production and manufacture. Maybe you could explain exactly how to interpret article 6 of the PRC constitution as it is a little hard to understand, me being a nieve caucasian and all. Article 6 The basis of the socialist economic system of the People's Republic of China is socialist public ownership of the means of production, namely, ownership by the whole people and collective ownership by the working people.

Now, I do see it says socialist public ownership of the means of production, but please explain the "ownership by the whole people and collective ownership by the working people." portion of the article. What exactly is "socialist public ownership" and collective ownership by the whole people? Where's my dividend for all the cheap Walmart garbage? I haven't received a check, unless that means Chinese people.

Another question I have regarding Article 9 "All mineral resources, waters, forests, mountains, grasslands, unreclaimed land, beaches, and other natural resources are owned by the state, that is, by the whole people, with the exception of the forest, mountains, grasslands and unreclaimed land and beaches that are owned by collectives in accordance with the law. The state ensures the rational use of natural resources and protects rare animals and plants. Appropriation or damaging natural resources by any organization or individual by whatever means is prohibited.

Are your house and land given to you for being a good boy? And taken from you when you're naughty? Please enlighten me.

Please let me know why speech is controlled in your country but a chinese general can spout off about nuking many US cities and he is not punished by his peers?

Sorry again for not mentioning the word communist yet. Oops, too late. Damn. Smurf, I thought you'd be proud of me. Smoking Man, sorry for dropping the Marx name from nowhere, you got to throw him in the mix so as not to use the c word too much, it makes smurf very unsmurfy.

Smoking Man, please let me know how your "mother land", oh damn, that's russia. Please let me know how china deals with those horrible, horibble cyber cafes. Damn those young kids and their desire to learn from somewhere that isn't yet censored by "Uncle Shek". It's ashame that the doors to some of these places seem to get locked when the place mysteriously starts on fire and incinerates everyone while they are locked inside. Don't you hate it when that happens.

The chinese are great people, their leaders could use a hug though. I would like to say things seemed to have cooled down a bit since that whole tieneman thingy. Again, against those crazy kids.

If china was really so "open", why do they censor all news, media, films, behavior, pasttimes and such. I'm not sure I could deal with that myself, but to each his own I guess. I like to read what I like, see what I want to see and learn what I want to learn. I assumed most people felt the same.

Again, for the record, I am not racist. I am an anti-socialist, plain and simple. Whether they be american socialists/communists or wherever they may be lurking. I have many chinese friends (and japanese friends too). I do not have many russian friends, but my last girlfriend was lithuanian, does that count? It is a russian state. Russian girls are definitely something else. Beautiful for sure. My wife wouldn't like me saying that though... Russian news is da bomb.

I would, however, like to point you to a great information source. Perhaps you have heard of him, Colonel Stanislav Lunev. He has great information although you probably won't find anything more recent than say 2001 or 2002. You see, he is the highest ranking soviet ever to defect from mother russia. He's pretty much come clean on a lot of spicy issues and has went into detail about the communists' siege on america (a work in progress) such as infiltration of our media, our government, poisoning water sources and much much more. I know, you said that russia and china are not helping out, but maybe that's because your newspaper isn't telling you anything about it? After all, it is censored. :)

Please explain, the pact to join in a fight against america. Or about the joint-military exercise of 5,000 troops. Yes, I did say joint exercise. This does appear that they are working with each other. I find it hard to believe that someone in the homeland has access to internet and isn't incinerated yet. Hmmm.

Mr. Smoking Man, I must say I am amazed at the professional quality of some of your posts. If you are not using a team of subordinates to make your posts, I must say you truly are an impressive individual. You aren't Falun Gong are you? If you are, you better watch your back, the PRC will kill you first and identify your remains later.

Lastly, I would like to say Accuracy In Media has a eyeopening report in Feb. 03.
http://www.aim.org/aim_report/A217_0_4_0_C/

Please explain why so many millions have died under communism in such a short amount of time? Sounds like such a great system of government. No corruption at the highest levels, utopia everywhere. Must be grand.

 

[Orwell's Ghost]

Smoking, hope you don't take anything i have posted as slamming you or your country, for that is not my intent. The chinese have a very interesting history with its ups and downs. Tell me the truth, is Yao Ming really a clone? How did he get so damn tall?

If it upsets you that I see what I see, i'll tone down my posts a bit. I just don't feel communism is for me and many in my own country are a bit worried over China's growing influence and power while at the same time, China is very controlling of its people to a point I would consider unneccessary and counter-productive to a civilization.

-Orwell's Ghost

 

[outsider]

You are ruining the world's view of America. After reading your post targeted against TSM, I was really offended and sickened... I'm sorry TSM, this guy does not represent North American thought. I think you are wise enough to figure that out. As for Orwell's post, this is how I viewed it, and so Orwell's Ghost, this will be my gift to you:

Please let me apologize if I came off sounding like I want a world war to occur. That is not what I am hoping for.

for some strange reason, I don't believe you.

I am just concerned with the amount of heat I feel radiating off of china at the moment, from their massive buildup of weaponry to the enlargement of their naval force. Espionage and media contro, yeah, throw that it too.

fear mongering tactic.

I am glad to hear that china is such a capitalist powerhouse these days.

no you're not.

I am surprised the chinese would actually accept that label be utilized. They are not capitalist, but let's get to that later.

condescending; weak attempt at a cheap shot
[/quote]

They do want to control the means of production and manufacture. Maybe you could explain exactly how to interpret article 6 of the PRC constitution as it is a little hard to understand, me being a nieve caucasian and all. Article 6 The basis of the socialist economic system of the People's Republic of China is socialist public ownership of the means of production, namely, ownership by the whole people and collective ownership by the working people.

you think you know it already... what's the point in anyone talking to you?

Now, I do see it says socialist public ownership of the means of production, but please explain the "ownership by the whole people and collective ownership by the working people." portion of the article. What exactly is "socialist public ownership" and collective ownership by the whole people?

don't be an idiot.

Where's my dividend for all the cheap Walmart garbage?

you should ask Walmart as they are seriously involved in screwing middle America! and coming soon to more locations in Canada!

I haven't received a check, unless that means Chinese people.

i just wanted to emphasize who is speaking... *shaking head*

Another question I have regarding Article 9 "All mineral resources, waters, forests, mountains, grasslands, unreclaimed land, beaches, and other natural resources are owned by the state, that is, by the whole people, with the exception of the forest, mountains, grasslands and unreclaimed land and beaches that are owned by collectives in accordance with the law. The state ensures the rational use of natural resources and protects rare animals and plants. Appropriation or damaging natural resources by any organization or individual by whatever means is prohibited.

looks like someone was trying to start some type of business in China to take advantage of their cheap labor... i could be wrong

Are your house and land given to you for being a good boy? And taken from you when you're naughty? Please enlighten me.

One can only achieve one's own enlightmentment. Therefore anyone can try as hard as they can, with no guaranteed result... plus we have nothing to gain from it

Please let me know why speech is controlled in your country but a chinese general can spout off about nuking many US cities and he is not punished by his peers?

can you tell me why America is so F-ed Up? Clean up the mess you made first before criticising...

Sorry again for not mentioning the word communist yet.

no your not because you just did that on purpose

Oops, too late. Damn.

see?

Smurf, I thought you'd be proud of me.

No, didn't think.

Smoking Man, sorry for dropping the Marx name from nowhere, you got to throw him in the mix so as not to use the c word too much, it makes smurf very unsmurfy.

you sound like a bigger crazy than I sound there... now that's scary

Smoking Man, please let me know how your "mother land", oh damn, that's russia. Please let me know how china deals with those horrible, horibble cyber cafes. Damn those young kids and their desire to learn from somewhere that isn't yet censored by "Uncle Shek". It's ashame that the doors to some of these places seem to get locked when the place mysteriously starts on fire and incinerates everyone while they are locked inside. Don't you hate it when that happens.

more crazy talk...

(more crazy talk)

Again, for the record, I am not racist.

perhaps you don't think you are, but chances are: YOU ARE and don't know YOU ARE.

I am an anti-socialist, plain and simple. Whether they be american socialists/communists or wherever they may be lurking.

this sounds like it involves guns (hence my introduction shaming you and the need to apologize to the world on behalf of the Americans who do not share your view.)

I have many chinese friends (and japanese friends too).

and what do they think about Japan in WWII, and the Japanese Govt wanting to change the history books to reflect that the war crimes never happened?

Mr. Smoking Man, I must say I am amazed at the professional quality of some of your posts. If you are not using a team of subordinates to make your posts, I must say you truly are an impressive individual. You aren't Falun Gong are you? If you are, you better watch your back, the PRC will kill you first and identify your remains later.

well, I don't know about YOU, but TSM seems to have been around before these threads came about... YOU, however, sound like you may have a team.. or perhaps you lead a team... :rofl:

Please explain why so many millions have died under communism in such a short amount of time? Sounds like such a great system of government. No corruption at the highest levels, utopia everywhere. Must be grand.

wrong discussion... you clearly make yourself a fool by pointing your keyboard at China... despite what you say, you are a chinese hater... your posts will no longer hold any credibility with me... sorry :yuck:

 

[Smurf]

Mind if I answer some of this TSM?

I am glad to hear that china is such a capitalist powerhouse these days. I am surprised the chinese would actually accept that label be utilized.

Oh They don't. They still maintain the position that they are 'communist'. We call them capitalist because it's a hell of a lot more accurate than both Marxism and Maoism.

Are your house and land given to you for being a good boy? And taken from you when you're naughty? Please enlighten me.

Actually, interestingly enough they DO do that in Cuba. You have to 'apply' for a house when you move out of your parents house. And if you want to move you have to 'trade' with someone. Personally I think it sounds totally awsome.

Please let me know why speech is controlled in your country but a chinese general can spout off about nuking many US cities and he is not punished by his peers?

See your problem is you're still looking at China as Marxist. It isn't. It never really was either, Maoism wasn't even that close to Marxism in the first place. There's no real difference between a Chinese General saying "Nuke the US" and Bush saying "Axis of Evil"

Sorry again for not mentioning the word communist yet. Oops, too late. Damn. Smurf, I thought you'd be proud of me.

Really? That's interesting. You've only just joined, what made you draw that conclusion about me?

If china was really so "open", why do they censor all news, media, films, behavior, pasttimes and such. I'm not sure I could deal with that myself, but to each his own I guess. I like to read what I like, see what I want to see and learn what I want to learn. I assumed most people felt the same.

You also assumed that China's the only one.

Again, for the record, I am not racist. I am an anti-socialist, plain and simple.

I thought you were an Anti-Maoist.

I do not have many russian friends, but my last girlfriend was lithuanian, does that count? It is a russian state. Russian girls are definitely something else. Beautiful for sure. My wife wouldn't like me saying that though... Russian news is da bomb.

You know Russia's not communist either... right?

He's pretty much come clean on a lot of spicy issues and has went into detail about the communists' siege on america (a work in progress) such as infiltration of our media, our government, poisoning water sources and much much more.

Oh yeah? did he tell you how the Smurfs were communist propoganda and show pictures comparing Papa Smurf to Karl Marx and so on? Hate to break it to you, but the guy's probably a loonie left over from the good 'ol McCarthyist period.

Please explain, the pact to join in a fight against america. Or about the joint-military exercise of 5,000 troops. Yes, I did say joint exercise. This does appear that they are working with each other. I find it hard to believe that someone in the homeland has access to internet and isn't incinerated yet.

For the record, the only country in the world where the Internet is illegal.. is Burma. You're also not allowed to gather in groups larger than 10 and if you so much as know where the border is they tend to restrict your visit to a "supervised" tour... for your protection of course. Dangerous jungle out there.

If you are, you better watch your back, the PRC will kill you first and identify your remains later.

...? Yeah, the PRC has this bad habit of killing random people and THEN finding out who it was afterwards.

Please explain why so many millions have died under communism in such a short amount of time? Sounds like such a great system of government. No corruption at the highest levels, utopia everywhere. Must be grand.

Be carefull, a lot of figures about people dying under communism are sckewed. I think we addressed one main example earlier in the thread? Or was it another one...

 

[Smurf]

Outsider, let's not be so quick to judge. This kind of thought is not entirely uncommon in the states, and this guy seems to be willing to learn, we should try to show him where he's wrong. (oh yeah, because that's EXACTLY what I've been doing :tongue2: )

 

[Archon]

I am glad to hear that china is such a capitalist powerhouse these days. I am surprised the chinese would actually accept that label be utilized. They are not capitalist, but let's get to that later.

You didn't get to it. You cited their constitution, which, as I'm sure The Smoking Man can tell you, isn't exactly being followed verbatim. Do you have any information about actual conditions?

They do want to control the means of production and manufacture. Maybe you could explain exactly how to interpret article 6 of the PRC constitution as it is a little hard to understand, me being a nieve caucasian and all. Article 6 The basis of the socialist economic system of the People's Republic of China is socialist public ownership of the means of production, namely, ownership by the whole people and collective ownership by the working people.

Now, I do see it says socialist public ownership of the means of production, but please explain the "ownership by the whole people and collective ownership by the working people." portion of the article. What exactly is "socialist public ownership" and collective ownership by the whole people? Where's my dividend for all the cheap Walmart garbage? I haven't received a check, unless that means Chinese people.

Another question I have regarding Article 9 "All mineral resources, waters, forests, mountains, grasslands, unreclaimed land, beaches, and other natural resources are owned by the state, that is, by the whole people, with the exception of the forest, mountains, grasslands and unreclaimed land and beaches that are owned by collectives in accordance with the law. The state ensures the rational use of natural resources and protects rare animals and plants. Appropriation or damaging natural resources by any organization or individual by whatever means is prohibited.

You seem to be interpreting this as a desire to control the entire world. It seems to me that it only applies in China, which makes it no more unreasonable than the U.S. government preventing the sale of an American oil company to the Chinese: protection of valuable resources.

Please let me know why speech is controlled in your country but a chinese general can spout off about nuking many US cities and he is not punished by his peers?

Perhaps you can gain an insight into the reality of the "communist" government in China by studying this in more depth.

Sorry again for not mentioning the word communist yet. Oops, too late. Damn. Smurf, I thought you'd be proud of me. Smoking Man, sorry for dropping the Marx name from nowhere, you got to throw him in the mix so as not to use the c word too much, it makes smurf very unsmurfy.

What's the point of this?

Smoking Man, please let me know how your "mother land", oh damn, that's russia. Please let me know how china deals with those horrible, horibble cyber cafes. Damn those young kids and their desire to learn from somewhere that isn't yet censored by "Uncle Shek". It's ashame that the doors to some of these places seem to get locked when the place mysteriously starts on fire and incinerates everyone while they are locked inside. Don't you hate it when that happens.

And what's the point of this?

The chinese are great people, their leaders could use a hug though. I would like to say things seemed to have cooled down a bit since that whole tieneman thingy. Again, against those crazy kids.

What, and you're proud of every aspect of American history? It's not like slavery or the wholesale destruction of the Native American population weren't worse than Tiananmen Square.

If china was really so "open", why do they censor all news, media, films, behavior, pasttimes and such. I'm not sure I could deal with that myself, but to each his own I guess. I like to read what I like, see what I want to see and learn what I want to learn. I assumed most people felt the same.

To the best of my knowledge it's not nearly as extreme as you seem to think.
Perhaps you should educate yourself on the realities of Chinese life before implying that they enjoy a repressed existence.

Again, for the record, I am not racist. I am an anti-socialist, plain and simple. Whether they be american socialists/communists or wherever they may be lurking. I have many chinese friends (and japanese friends too).

Are you sure you aren't racist? You seem to have implied that the Chinese would enjoy living under a dictator. This is a racially-oriented insult.

I do not have many russian friends, but my last girlfriend was lithuanian, does that count? It is a russian state.

Ask her whether she would like to be called Russian. Then, run.

I would, however, like to point you to a great information source. Perhaps you have heard of him, Colonel Stanislav Lunev. He has great information although you probably won't find anything more recent than say 2001 or 2002. You see, he is the highest ranking soviet ever to defect from mother russia. He's pretty much come clean on a lot of spicy issues and has went into detail about the communists' siege on america (a work in progress) such as infiltration of our media, our government, poisoning water sources and much much more. I know, you said that russia and china are not helping out, but maybe that's because your newspaper isn't telling you anything about it? After all, it is censored. :)

I don't understand you. You obviously despise communism and socialism, and yet, you are more willing to trust a (supposed) defector from the most powerful "communist" country ever to have existed over your own government. How do you justify this?

Please explain, the pact to join in a fight against america. Or about the joint-military exercise of 5,000 troops. Yes, I did say joint exercise. This does appear that they are working with each other. I find it hard to believe that someone in the homeland has access to internet and isn't incinerated yet. Hmmm.

If by "the homeland" you mean China...uh...The Smoking Man? Maybe? He's in China and appears to be using the internet. He obviously hasn't been incinerated in any way.

Please explain why so many millions have died under communism in such a short amount of time? Sounds like such a great system of government. No corruption at the highest levels, utopia everywhere. Must be grand.

Millions of people died in the U.S. last year as well. Since China's population is so much greater than that of the U.S., maybe natural deaths account for much of it, right? For further discussion of this topic, there's a fairly recent thread in which this was dealt with.

 

[The Smoking Man]

You didn't get to it. You cited their constitution, which, as I'm sure The Smoking Man can tell you, isn't exactly being followed verbatim. Do you have any information about actual conditions?

I'm still trying to figure out where he got the impression that I am actually Chinese.

My only response to him thus far has included the words, "I live here".

To clarify my disposition, I have dual British/Canadian nationality.

I work as a consultant in China negotiating and educating ignorant westerners past their misconceptions about this country.

His basic 'misconception' is that the document he is using is still in force ... it isn't.

The rest of the reports he seems to have been quoting seem to be biased reporting on behalf of American besides his reference to the 'truth in media' site he mentions.

Let's go through a quick recap ... There are more socialist programs going on in America the rest of the world than there are in China.

The only thing 'workers' pay into here is the tax system. Now, pick up your latest pay stub and look at your deductions ... manditory and optional.

Internet ... The internet cafes that were closed for the most part actually defied zoning laws which states that they may not be installed within a certain distance to public schools. The problem is, a lot of the kids are cutting classes to play internet games.

Also, a good portion were shut down because they were not up to code. If you check the last major closure of illegal internet cafes, it happened after one of these places caught fire and the management had chained the fire doors closed.

You will also find that a good many are operating without business licenses and are not paying taxes.

The very fact that they had not enforced the law for the above three types of violation allowing the number of illegal places to open is testament to the fact that things are not as drachonian as he paints them to be.

Free speech - So we have a General in the Chinese army talking about a nuclear strike possibility as a private citizen and not as a government mouthpiece ... Ummm ... so what are you saying? That he is in some way more constrained than William G. "Jerry" Boykin over his 'my god was bigger than his god' statements?

Are you also saying that the Chinese government owns all the Sony, Mitac, Phillips, Siemens, etc. plants and that the sell off of SREs to private individuals over the years has all been a big lie?

Now you seem to have a problem with what happened in 1989 in Tiananmen. What are you looking for an apology? So when can we expect an apology from Dubya over the illegal war in Iraq that killed much more people and happened just two years ago? Tianmen was something that happened and was decided over a period of 5 days and was no doubt the wrong decision however people here have moved on. The last anniversary saw 16 people turn up in Tinanmen get detained for a few minutes and then they were released. Iraq, according to the Downing Street Memo, seems to have been in the planning for quite some time and resulted in the deaths of 10s of thousands.

While the method of suppression was a tad heavy handed, let's try and draw a parallel over what occurred and what drove the students to their protest ... the fall of the wall in Berlin.

Do you think what happened in the Soviet Union should have been repeated in China? Do you believe that 1.2 billion people in the landmass known as China would have dealt with the freedom any better than the Soviet States who experienced a collapsed econoimy, ethnic cleansing and Civil War? Is this what you wished for the Chinese people? Again, I see American calling for the deaths of millions at the cost of what they consider to be the 'freedoms' of people other than themselves.

All I can say about most of what you posted is 'Are you or have you ever been a supporter of Joe McCarthy'?

You sound like a complete idiot referring to documents severely dated and tainted by republican media who is having problems dealing with the fact that the 'commies' are less 'commie' than the USA and they have already overtaken you in production and world competition ... the same as the 'democratic' countries of Japan and Korea in the 1980's.

Now you are staring at the TWO countries of China and Vietnam who are placed 1 and two in terms of growth of success and wondering how something that goes completely against your beliefs can be so successful.

I truly am sorry for you.

 

[outsider]

You know... this thread has gone way off track... originally this was about soccer fans and booing... obviously it had to touch the Japan / China relations... we're now discussing whether China is a threat to the U.S. or vice versa... there is a discussion already about "U.S. poised to dominate the world"... perhaps that is a better field to play on?

Smurf, I find your posts very "insightful and penetrating" as another PFer might say...
but you are still a jerk... I know I'm the new guy here, so whatever... at least you know you're a jerk.

Yes, I agree that Orwell's Ghost does deserve a chance to learn... unfortunately, I got upset because I do not want the world to think that all Americans think the way he does... this is why there is war... hatemongering! I am only racist against racists.. and that includes racists of every color (including non-color / white). I just don't want to clean up his crap... he's instigating and i don't appreciate it.

I've traveled to many places in the world and it seems like most governments mistreat it's people. America is mistreating it's people by sending the to an unecessary war... debatable.. yes.. let's... somewhere else perhaps?

US, Canada, England, France, Japan and Australia (of the places I've been) seem to have their peoples "domesticated" to the point where they are really obedient. The system sort of works.

I have not been to any other countries and am not a scholar of politics, but I know what I see and I talk to real people everywhere I go.

Chinese people in my opinion are "trained" to say that they love their country... this is does not take away the fact that some of them live in an element of fear and insecurity. But I think that is their problem to deal with. This does not give anyone the right to judge their country. It's like a left hander telling a right hander that they are stupid, or weird, or wrong. Being "right handed" does not mean "right" in the context of "right and wrong".

Who are we, really, to judge another persons problems when we haven't dealt with our own?

 

[Smurf]

TSM, my cousin was just in shanghai for a number of months. When I spoke to her about it she cited a few examples of strong censorship that she considered ridiculous. For example, when the people she was staying with were watching television and the show was suddenly cut out (some sort of technical difficulty) just when a paticular part was coming on.. say... When a tank was about to drive over a person (no specific historical reference).

What's your response to that?

 

[Smurf]

Smurf, I find your posts very "insightful and penetrating" as another PFer might say...
but you are still a jerk... I know I'm the new guy here, so whatever... at least you know you're a jerk.

Hmm.. how to respond.
Thank you. Yeah, I know. And I appreciate you're honesty. Why, exactly.. ? Is it because of my cynical patronizing remarks?

Yes, I agree that Orwell's Ghost does deserve a chance to learn... unfortunately, I got upset because I do not want the world to think that all Americans think the way he does... this is why there is war... hatemongering! I am only racist against racists.. and that includes racists of every color (including non-color / white). I just don't want to clean up his crap... he's instigating and i don't appreciate it.

That's understandable, but we should always try to respond in a constructive fastion, regardless of what we'd like to do. Otherwise we're just as negative a force as they are.

US, Canada, England, France, Japan and Australia (of the places I've been) seem to have their peoples "domesticated" to the point where they are really obedient. The system sort of works.

Where have you been that they don't seem domesticated?

Who are we, really, to judge another persons problems when we haven't dealt with our own?

Human beings.

 

[Orwell's Ghost]

Outsider, Where did I attack smoking man? Sure, he is the person I was asking, but only because he is residing in a communist country. I asked some questions pertaining to some of the horrible abuses of power inflicted or so I thought by the cpc or other communist regimes. My government sure has it's share of abuses and I'd comment on any of them. Any abuse of another human being I see as wrong. You can attack me with your words, with no problems and when I ask questions or state things I have read, I'm seen as attacking. I guess America can be talked harshly about by anybody without any backlash, but let's not talk about China or what China may be up to or else you are labelled a chinese hater and a racist. Couldn't be further from the truth. If my questions were answered and I could tell it were true, I would be relieved. Nope, let's just call my questions "crazy" rather than give a response. I was only pointing out a specific incidents or things that are happening. I am not a socialist but that doesn't make me racist and I do not hate chinese people. I guess I have to say that again, huh. Where have I said i hate anybody. Just because I dissagree with the "communist" template that I think of due to Russia and Germany, doesn't mean I hate my fellow man.

America has it's problems and then some. Waco texas is one example of our government gone extremely wrong. Janet Reno and the Clinton administration caused that atrocity. Or Bosnia too.

Japan's non-apology for the horrible things they did to the Chinese is wrong, detestable and unacceptable, what can I do about that? I didn't know the extent of their atrocities until I cam to this thread. Disturbing tortures and very sick. My college japanese teacher seemed to have hard feelings toward one of the chinese students in my class and vice-versa. I didn't know why at the time, I didn't read about the sino-japanese wars until later. I always wanted the chinese people to be living under a free nation and do what they want.

TSM, as for the cyber cafes, that was a relevant question and I'm glad you answered it. It disturbed me to only get attacked and insulted for asking some serious questions. I was about to write off this website as hostile, but glad I didn't.

If I were really so heated and hateful, racist and looking for war, why am I not in the US military and only asking questions in a forum such as this. I would like to know answers to some of the questions I have had for years, that's all? Thank you TSM for clearing up the cyber cafe thing (and the outdated consitution). The papers I was reading only had little blurbs which seemed like they could have been concocted because there was so little written about it.

I blame American corporations and our unions mostly for our mess regarding our loss of manufacturing, I don't blame china directly, as they have low cost of production. I know the big corporations doing business in china are not owned by china. I was referring to the chinese owned corporations being partially controlled by the state, even if it is indirectly, or so I was told. Hutchinson was one of the chinese companies in particular I asked about.

The massive buildup of weapons by a communist country and purchases from russia I haven't been able to see as a good thing. (please set me straight) It scares me quite frankly, just as the US power may scare the Chinese. I don't know if they are scared of the US, I'm just generalizing. Japan had similar military buildup prior to wwii. I understand China has soverign rights like any country so militaries and navies are normal, but such a rapid growth scares me personally, that and the Chinese-Russian pact and joint exercise. Is it for Taiwan only (if the US were to defend Tiawan) or I have wondered if the US part of the equation separate from Taiwan, scary. Japan had similarly massive military buildup prior to wwii. We know how that turned out.

I understand it is "chik" nowadays in the US to put on your Chez Guevarra shirt, pop open a bottle of red star beer and watch the demise of america. Sorry if I do not do the same, for I love my friends, my family and my country, even if it is still young in the eyes of the world. It is horrible what the US did to the indians too. My wife is part american indian and my step-father was part american indian and was also a member of our military. Two different tribes though. Blackfoot (wife) and Chippewa (step father).

And actually, when I asked about the millions that have died under communism, I wasn't referring to the people that have died of old age and I wasn't even referring to china in that scenario as I haven't heard of any staggering mass murder in china. My discussion was about communism in general and Russian communism and German nazism are the main ones I was referring to over the past century. China has been an angel compared to the other two so far as deaths are concerned. Hitler was a socialist. National Socialist German Workers Party to be specific (which is where the term nazi comes from). I heard that Hitler and Stalin were cozy before Hitler double-crossed him and invaded russia. Stalin was hurt by this, or so I heard in some WWII documentary. If I am wrong, please correct me, don't attack me, for I am only relaying what I have heard, read or watched. Maybe I shouldn't lump all communist countries or ideologies together into one mold, but when you don't know of the difference between them, can I be blamed for asking? I've never taken communism 101 and I dropped my international politics class. This thread has been somewhat of a learning experience, actually.
I have heard the chinese schools teach the children negative things in their textbooks about the US. Is this true? This is not meant to be mean. Just another question to possibly debunk another thing I have heard.

I personally feel Clinton screwed us over real good. Dismantled our military and only spanked the mole(s) that was caught at our pentagon and then was sent home after being caught real quick-like with only a slap on the wrist. How nice of him. Would China do the same, or use him to get one of their own back. How about that nice lady Katrina Leung? Yes, America is no better. I'm sure we have many spies in China doing the same types of things. That's the world we live in I suppose.

I bid you good day, (or night, depending) and I thank you smurf for not just jumping on the "insult Orwell" bus. Actually, I've been wondering about China's intentions ever since they held our spy plane and military personnell in confinement back in 2001. I must admit, they were all treated well, cudos to China for that. I thought the crap was going to hit the fan that day.

I am not the bush supporter you think I am. Bush is a lousy commander in chief and Iraq may just be one of the biggest blunders ever. And Outsider, sorry you feel that way about me. Name a person I have attacked other than the what I considered an oppressive, abusive government. My comments have been focused primarily on the communist regimes that have killed millions, for that is all I really know of communism is the horror associated with it. I have tried to understand by reading the manifesto, but that doesn't help much as it is a tad outdated. The US, I fear has many problems that only we can fix ourselves, trial and error at the voting box.

And Outsider, some of the context of what I was saying was meant to be funny, or at least I was attempting humor often. Like when I mentioned Smurf would be proud I hadn't mentioned the c word. Yes, observant you are, I did mean to write it. Don't take everything so seriously, I don't, NORMALLY. :)

 

[The Smoking Man]

TSM, my cousin was just in shanghai for a number of months. When I spoke to her about it she cited a few examples of strong censorship that she considered ridiculous. For example, when the people she was staying with were watching television and the show was suddenly cut out (some sort of technical difficulty) just when a paticular part was coming on.. say... When a tank was about to drive over a person (no specific historical reference).

What's your response to that?

It's a crock.

Unless she can understand Chinese, why would the people she was 'staying with' be sitting there watching a 'TV show' she couldn't understand?

Do you think that ANYBODY would be this unfeeling as to throw on a TV show their guest couldn't understand and then ignore them?

You will find that most of the people watch DVDs and they are neither censored nor Government controled.

In fact, I have had movies prior to their western release with less censorship than the western theatre releases..

 

[The Smoking Man]

Chinese people in my opinion are "trained" to say that they love their country... this is does not take away the fact that some of them live in an element of fear and insecurity. But I think that is their problem to deal with. This does not give anyone the right to judge their country. It's like a left hander telling a right hander that they are stupid, or weird, or wrong. Being "right handed" does not mean "right" in the context of "right and wrong".

Who are we, really, to judge another persons problems when we haven't dealt with our own?

Yup.

I understand it is "chik" nowadays in the US to put on your Chez Guevarra shirt, pop open a bottle of red star beer and watch the demise of america. Sorry if I do not do the same, for I love my friends, my family and my country, even if it is still young in the eyes of the world. It is horrible what the US did to the indians too. My wife is part american indian and my step-father was part american indian and was also a member of our military. Two different tribes though. Blackfoot (wife) and Chippewa (step father).

See above.

Love and hate DO seem to be taught.

 

[The Smoking Man]

I bid you good day, (or night, depending) and I thank you smurf for not just jumping on the "insult Orwell" bus. Actually, I've been wondering about China's intentions ever since they held our spy plane and military personnell in confinement back in 2001. I must admit, they were all treated well, cudos to China for that. I thought the crap was going to hit the fan that day.

Why? Did you think they would treat them like the Americans would and spirit them off to an island for torture somewhere?

Maybe you missed when the Chines embassy was bombed by the USA too and the reaction was far less than what the USA normally responds with?

 

[The Smoking Man]

The massive buildup of weapons by a communist country and purchases from russia I haven't been able to see as a good thing. (please set me straight) It scares me quite frankly, just as the US power may scare the Chinese. I don't know if they are scared of the US, I'm just generalizing. Japan had similar military buildup prior to wwii. I understand China has soverign rights like any country so militaries and navies are normal, but such a rapid growth scares me personally, that and the Chinese-Russian pact and joint exercise. Is it for Taiwan only (if the US were to defend Tiawan) or I have wondered if the US part of the equation separate from Taiwan, scary. Japan had similarly massive military buildup prior to wwii. We know how that turned out.

You answered your own question.

Fear.

This was something you should take note of in regard to the US actions in Iraq relative to the UN.

The UN was created to do away with the need for war. For the most part, it has done a fair job in removing the need by providing a forum for debate and for the passage of resolutions and imposing sanctions.

The USA seems to be opting out of these options and is going directly to armed conflict.

How do you think these actions are perceived even by your allies?

China has been blocked from purchasing arms based on an internal issue ... Tiananmen.

The USA has armed Taiwan to the teeth and has threatened China directly.

China isn't expecting to start a war. They are expecting to ANSWER to an attack which, by the actions of America in opting out of the UN process has become a real issue in the rest of the world.

Why do you think Iran is persuing the bomb?

Why is Pakistan persuing Nuclear Cruise?

Even those states that were previously a part of the coalition of the willing have been threatened and their personal 'space attacked or violated'. Think CIA ... think Italy.

You want a safe world? ... Put it back into your pants.

 

[The Smoking Man]

China has been an angel compared to the other two so far as deaths are concerned. Hitler was a socialist. National Socialist German Workers Party to be specific (which is where the term nazi comes from). I heard that Hitler and Stalin were cozy before Hitler double-crossed him and invaded russia. Stalin was hurt by this, or so I heard in some WWII documentary. If I am wrong, please correct me, don't attack me, for I am only relaying what I have heard, read or watched. Maybe I shouldn't lump all communist countries or ideologies together into one mold, but when you don't know of the difference between them, can I be blamed for asking? I've never taken communism 101 and I dropped my international politics class. This thread has been somewhat of a learning experience, actually.

One of your major problems is that you are fond of labels and what people call themselves.

Do you know where Greenland got its name?

So tell me it's green.

So if you read the 'manifesto' where does it mention the words 'Gulag', or mass murder?

Maybe they should call themselves 'the green party'?