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Lance Armstrong won't fight doping charges; loses titles

  1. Aug 23, 2012 #1
  2. jcsd
  3. Aug 24, 2012 #2

    turbo

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    Sad. He apparently never failed a doping test. Was he hounded out of his sport? I hope not, though much of this stuff goes on "behind the scenes".
     
  4. Aug 24, 2012 #3
    If I recall right, he only failed one, but it was poorly handled or gotten illegally or something so it was thrown out.

    It's definitely a witch hunt. He probably did it, but it's still a witch hunt.
     
  5. Aug 24, 2012 #4
  6. Aug 24, 2012 #5

    cobalt124

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    From what I heard the evidence is that his teammates did it and said he did as well, but they haven't backed up what they are saying with evidence. My gut feeling is he is guilty but you cannot act without evidence. If you can take drugs and pass drugs tests that makes me worry about the validity of recent British successes.
     
  7. Aug 24, 2012 #6

    BobG

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    So, from 1999 to 2010, 9 of the 12 tour winners were stripped of their victories?

    These should make some tough Trivial Pursuit questions. People that watched the Tour de France during those years would have a tougher time answering those questions than people that just looked them up.

    Well, for a year or two, at least. I guess it's possible that the tour winners during any of those years could change on a regular basis and more than once for any given year. How can a person possibly keep their Trivial Pursuit cards current when the answers keep changing?
     
  8. Aug 24, 2012 #7

    Chi Meson

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    Is Jan Ulrich Partying now?
     
  9. Aug 24, 2012 #8

    BobG

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    Could be. Only Ullrich's awards from 2005 on were stripped for doping. His three 2nds to
    Armstrong still count. Plus he had a 1996 2nd place finish behind Bjarne Riis who admitted doping during his 1996 victory, but was never suspended. Ullrich could be a 5 time winner!

    Just to put things into perspective, drugs have been a part of pro cycling for decades - something many people don't realize. I was listening to an interview on NPR and the interviewer had a true D'oh moment. He said the spate of winners caught doping must make one long for the simpler, purer days of riders like 5-time winner Jacques Anquetil - except not only did Anquetil use performance enhancing drugs, and not only did he make no secret of it, but he argued using performance enhancing drugs should stay legal (which they were back in the days when Anquetil won his races); that drugs were absolutely essential for completing ordeals such as the Tour de France and other multi-stage races. Some commended him for his courage and honesty, since the stance on drug use was very similar to the stance on steroids in baseball in the 90's (technically legal, but something your stars such as Barry Bonds, Mark McGwire, Sammy Sosa, et al avoided admitting at almost any cost).

    And when drugs such as amphetamines were first banned, the penalties for testing positive were usually a time penalty for the race they were caught in. A 10 minute penalty for testing positive was fairly common and was a fairly serious penalty for a rider contending for a tour victory. Eddie Merckx, arguably the best cyclist ever, was penalized for positive tests four times in his career, but never in the Tour de France.

    So, in one sense, the public is shocked and outraged when 5 out of the top 10 riders in the 1999 Tour used drugs sometime during their career, and 6/10 in the 2000 Tour, 4/10 in 2001, 6/10 in 2001, 6/10 in 2002, 8/10 in 2003, 5/10 in 2004, 8/10 in 2005. It's more the pain of pro cycling finally making a serious effort to get drugs out of the sport than a sudden surge in drug use. (That doesn't mean they were penalized for that particular tour, as in Ullrich's 2nd place finishes counting even though he was later suspended and stripped of later victories.)

    So, Armstrong may be able to say he never failed a drug test and he may be able to say he's being treated unfairly, but I'd be surprised if he actually never used drugs. He certainly could be telling the truth, but if he didn't, he'd be one of a very few didn't (which would make his wins even more remarkable).

    But wouldn't that be ironic to strip Armstrong of his victories and award 3 of them to another rider that had also had been suspended and had victories stripped because of doping?
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2012
  10. Aug 25, 2012 #9

    Borek

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    As far as I can tell whole story - especially the part about the lost titles - is an exaggeration and misrepresentation of facts.

    From what I understand USADA says Armstrong was stripped of his titles, but USADA has no authority over UCI (Union Cycliste Internationale). And it is UCI that decides who holds the title, not USADA. So far UCI said something like "if we will be presented with serious proofs, we will make a decision". But USADA hunts the Armstrong for so many years and so far failed to present the proof, somehow I find it hard to believe they have something new now. The only new fact is that Armstrong said "I am tired of fighting them" which doesn't mean "I am guilty", unless my English fails me big. But I have a feeling it is USADA that has problems with reading with comprehension.

    That's regardless of whether Armstrong was clean or not.
     
  11. Aug 25, 2012 #10

    Chi Meson

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    I think it is significant that Lance NEVER, ever said, especially when specifically pressed to do so, "I have never used performance enhancing drugs."

    His responses have always been (as already noted)
    "I have never tested positive"
    "Lance Armstrong has never admitted to using drugs" (Yes, in the third person)
    "The policy of the USPS team is that we are opposed to blood doping." (And "blood doping" usually refers to the relatively simple act of adding extra blood, often your own blood that was saved-up over the prior year).

    The fact that he would never say "I have never used performance enhancing drugs during the Tour de France" is very telling. Wiggins came out and said as much (dang it all if he ever falls!)

    Was it Anquetil or Hinault who said "You don't win the tour on bottled water"?

    Edit:
    This http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2012/jul/13/bradley-wiggins-dope-drugs for example is something that Lance never came close to saying.
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2012
  12. Aug 25, 2012 #11
    I don't have any strong feelings either way. I'm not into sport at all.
     
  13. Aug 25, 2012 #12
    He should have stuck to trumpet playing.
     
  14. Aug 25, 2012 #13

    arildno

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    Dearly Missed

    Or he should have played with strumpets.
    What a zero value thread.
     
  15. Aug 25, 2012 #14

    Borek

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    Earlier UCI statement on USADA actions:

    http://www.uci.ch/Modules/ENews/ENewsDetails.asp?source=SiteSearch&id=ODU0NA&MenuId=MTI2Mjg&CharValList=607%3B&CharTextList=&CharFromList=&CharToList=&txtSiteSearch=&SelChar207=607&LangId=1 [Broken].

    Again, I am not defending Armstrong, I just find the original statement of Armstrong loosing his titles idiotic in the circumstances.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 6, 2017
  16. Aug 25, 2012 #15

    BobG

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    Neither. It was Eddie Merkcx. (Actually he said "You don't win the tour on bread and water.")

    Hinault said, "... you can win the tour on mineral water." Granted, he said this long after he retired in response to an entire team being kicked out of the Tour in 1998 for doping.
     
  17. Aug 25, 2012 #16

    Astronuc

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    How does one prove that one didn't use doping in the past - especially in the absence of evidence that one did.

    As far as I know, it is simply conjecture, which it seems is based on hearsay. Yes, no?

    Is this guilt by association?

    Was Armstrong not properly tested? If he did use doping, how was it that he didn't fail subsequent tests?
     
  18. Aug 25, 2012 #17

    Redbelly98

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    I had noticed that too. He would deny that there was any evidence of his using them. Still, I always wanted to believe he was innocent.

    I wouldn't think it is hearsay, the new evidence is that former teammates are willing to testify that they saw Armstrong using performance-enhancing substances during the years he was winning the Tour.

    It's worth mentioning that he did win it outright in 1997 -- I guess you are counting that among the 5.
     
  19. Aug 27, 2012 #18

    BobG

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    The drug test procedures aren't secret. In effect, they establish the limits on how much a rider can dope and the types of drugs/procedures they can use without failing the tests. For high profile riders that can afford the best procedures, those procedures should provide 100% certainty that they'll always pass a drug test. Except no one can achieve 100% success forever. Eventually, someone always gets caught and, presumably, a long enough career and everyone is sure to get caught at least once.

    From Bernard Kohl, who was caught doping after his third place finish in the 2008 Tour: http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/kohl-tells-all-about-doping-1

    The younger, anonymous riders are probably clean - simply because they can't afford the procedures used by the top riders. Once the riders have established their careers and can afford the more expensive procedures, they usually use them.
     
  20. Oct 18, 2012 #19

    Astronuc

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  21. Jan 14, 2013 #20

    Astronuc

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    Lance Armstrong's doping admission: Questions Oprah should have asked
    http://sports.yahoo.com/news/questions-oprah-should-ask-lance-armstrong-230849439.html

     
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