Low Signal Amplification: OP-07 & LM324 Preamp

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the amplification capabilities of operational amplifiers (op-amps) like the OP-07 and LM324, particularly in the context of low signal levels such as microvolts. Participants explore circuit design considerations, biasing techniques, and the performance of both op-amps and transistor preamps in low-noise applications.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Experimental/applied

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question whether op-amps can amplify signals down to microvolt levels, with specific mention of the OP-07.
  • There is a discussion about the necessity of biasing op-amp inputs, particularly in configurations where very low signals are present.
  • One participant explains that a resistor connected to the op-amp input serves as a pull-up resistor to maintain a defined reference voltage, preventing charge trapping in the input capacitor.
  • Concerns are raised about the noise levels of general-purpose op-amps like the LM324, suggesting that they may not be suitable for microvolt-level signals due to noise interference.
  • Participants share experiences with low noise transistor preamps, noting challenges in getting them to work as intended.
  • There is a debate regarding the design and functionality of a specific transistor amplifier circuit, with some participants expressing skepticism about its effectiveness while others suggest it might work under certain conditions.
  • Some participants discuss the importance of matched transistors in achieving desired performance in transistor circuits.
  • There are mentions of potential improvements to circuit designs and the sharing of alternative schematic approaches.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express a range of views on the effectiveness of op-amps at low signal levels, with some agreeing on the challenges posed by noise while others propose that certain designs could still be viable. The discussion on the transistor circuit remains contested, with differing opinions on its potential functionality and design quality.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight limitations related to circuit design, biasing arrangements, and the impact of component mismatches on performance. There are also references to specific noise levels and performance metrics that are not universally agreed upon.

  • #31
Here is the SPICE model (see thumbnails) of the common-emitter version of the weird amp. The low frequency response is very sensitive to the capacitor bypass on the two emitters. With 4.7k emitter resistors (corresponding to about 1 mA collector current per transistor), the bypass had to be about 1000 uF to make the frequency response flat with minimal phase shift.
For posting these thumbnails from SPICE, I do a Print Screen of each SPICE image, paste them into Power Point, and save them as jpg.
Bob S
[Edit] As before, this circuit requires a floating 9V battery.
 

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  • #32
Here is a redo of the common-emitter amplifier circuit in the previous post, except that the 9-volt battery has been separated from the collector signals, and the power supply bypassed to ground, so now this circuit can be coupled to a ground-referenced dc supply. Performance is about the same.
 

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  • #33
Thanks Bob, great simulations.

The second one looks a little more friendly although I find it hard to get away from a ground-referenced way of thinking.
I'm just a little worried that this may be a simulator artefact.

Did you get an idea of the input impedance for each common emitter setup?
 
  • #34
Here are some numbers for the last circuit. I put a resistor in series with the input voltage source, and found the corresponding output amplitudes:

0 ohms, -23.0 dB (below 1 volt)
1k ohms, -25.3 dB
2k ohms, -26.3 dB
5k ohms, -29.9 dB
10 k ohms, -33.7 dB

So 5K-ohm series input impedance is about half amplitude (6 dB down).

In the dc operating point measurement, the positive and negative rails are +3.76 volts and -5.24 volts, meaning the input would have a dc offset if the circuit runs on ground-referenced power supplies, so an input offset balance pot might be needed.

[Edit] I put two center-grounded 4.5 volt power supplies in series to replace the 9-volt battery, and the offset voltage across a 5k series input resistor was 6.8 mV, so there is an input bias current of 1.4 microamps.
Bob S
 
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