Magnetic waves/fields that precede cold weather fronts....

[Paul Schuster]

Are magnetic waves that travel ahead of low pressure wx fronts, a certain frequency? Are they a sign wave? Is it possible to cancel a magnetic wx front wave on a local basis by generating an 180 degree out of phase signal at the same frequency like you would a voltage wave? Is the magnetic wave part of a frequency sign wave in wx fronts? What is the frequency of a wx front magnetic wave? Is it in the same as the Earth's magnetic field?

 

[davenn]

Hi Paul
welcome to PF

Are magnetic waves that travel ahead of low pressure wx fronts, a certain frequency?

what magnetic waves ?? never heard of that one
do you have a reliable source for that ?

Dave

 

[Paul Schuster]

The sources I have are medical research articles that tie the heart rhythm condition AFIB, in part, to magnetic waves generated by cold weather fronts. I can gather a list if you like, but there are many studies indicating that these waves travel 24 to 36 hours ahead of the wx fronts and cause AFIB incidences. From my own experience I know that they do, and can feel them when they are coming on. I usually go into pro-longed AFIB symptoms until the front actually passes.

 

[davenn]

yes please they must be RELIABLE peer reviewed sources

 

[Paul Schuster]

References on the subject of AFIB and Cold Wx Fronts, magnetic fields...

http://www.afibbers.com/atrial_fibrillation/etiology/B96f.htm
..."The most interesting correlation though was between the approach of a cold front and the number of afib-related hospital admissions. All the high admission days (4-5 cases/day) occurred 24-36 hours prior to the arrival of a cold front. The researchers speculate that the effect may be due to the electromagnetic waves created in deep low-pressure systems and storm centers. These waves travel at the speed of light, whereas the front itself moves at 10-50 km/hr, thus explaining why the effect of an approaching cold front would be felt 24-36 hours in advance. The researchers found no relationship between afib incidence and the approach of a warm front. However, they did notice that periods of constant high atmospheric pressure were associated with a significant decline in hospital admissions for AF."

PUB MED:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18924023
..."A considerable influence of a cold front and occlusion of cold front type on increases in admissions to CCU for AF paroxysms was observed. The absence of arrhythmia for many consecutive days was noted during the presence of stationary high-pressure areas. There were no significant relationships between meteorological elements and AF paroxysms. A seasonal distribution of AF episodes was found, with the maximum incidence in winter months and a decrease in the number of patients hospitalised from May to August. The impact of cold fronts may be explained by the effect of electromagnetic waves occurring in the zone of atmospheric changes, which may penetrate into buildings. On account of the translocation speed of electromagnetic waves, the effects may be felt many hours before an atmospheric front approaches."

http://www.yourhealthbase.com/arrhythmias.html
..."The most interesting correlation though was between the approach of a cold front and the number of afib-related hospital admissions. All the high admission days (4-5 cases/day) occurred 24-36 hours prior to the arrival of a cold front. The researchers speculate that the effect may be due to the electromagnetic waves created in deep low-pressure systems and storm centers. These waves travel at the speed of light, whereas the front itself moves at 10-50 km/hr, thus explaining why the effect of an approaching cold front would be felt 24-36 hours in advance. The researchers found no relationship between afib incidence and the approach of a warm front. However, they did notice that periods of constant high atmospheric pressure were associated with a significant decline in hospital admissions for AF."

etc

 

[rootone]

Cold fronts are well known for being responsible for generating thunderstorms, however most of them don't, and weak ones don't even generate rain.
Obviously thunderstorms include a lot of electromagnetic activity, but then there are many kinds electromagnetism we are exposed daily to mosty having no ill effects.
It's true that a warm front passing usually is associated with the approach of a low pressure system, and a cold front when the system is moving away.
However people are also exposed to different atmospheric pressure frequently without weather fronts being involved.
If it was something to to with falling atmospheric pressure then walking up mountains and flying in planes would be a common cause of illness, and that clearly is not the case.

 

[Paul Schuster]

Cold fronts are well known for being responsible for generating thunderstorms, however most of them don't, and weak ones don't even generate rain.
Obviously thunderstorms include a lot of electromagnetic activity, but then there are many kinds electromagnetism we are exposed daily to mosty having no ill effects.
It's true that a warm front passing usually is associated with the approach of a low pressure system, and a cold front when the system is moving away.
However people are also exposed to different atmospheric pressure frequently without weather fronts being involved.
If it was something to to with falling atmospheric pressure then walking up mountains and flying in planes would be a common cause of illness, and that clearly is not the case.

 

[Paul Schuster]

One of the research articles from Norway or Sweden summarized that barometric pressure wasn't a factor, and the AFIB incidences were caused by magnetic waves preceding the cold wx fronts. I am trying to locate that research now.

 

[rootone]

I would think that the exposure to electromagnetism generated by a distant storm would be a lot less than the amount of exposure one gets from operating normal domestic appliances.
Furthermore if exposure to magnetism is a potential health hazard then MRI technology would not be routinely used in hospitals as a diagnostic tool, and for patients with fairly minor complaints.
The magnetic field in those is billions of times greater than any storm could produce.

Anyway I haven't looked at any of the links you gave yet, but this does sound very bizarre to me.
I haven't heard of this supposed correlation between weather fronts and heart disease before now.

 

[FactChecker]

Lightning is known to produce strong magnetic fields. The lightning is not alternating, but it does turn off and on:
from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightning#Lightning-induced_magnetism

the average duration is 0.2 seconds made up from a number of much shorter flashes (strokes) of around 30 microseconds

I assume that the magnetic field would reflect this in some way. A step function from no field to a strong field would contain a spectrum of all frequencies. Depending on the timing of the flashes, some frequencies could be mitigated and others could be strengthened. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a lot of random results from this.

It would surprise me if lightning one day away caused more magnetic disturbance than nearby lightning.

 

[Paul Schuster]

To be technical, heart disease and AFIB are different. For example my heart condition is fine, but it is what triggers the AFIB are extra electrical pulses bouncing around the atrial chamber which throws it out of sync. I have been an digital electronics field engineer, and ham radio operator all of my life, and trained in electronics. What I am trying to understand is the association of magnetic waves that travel with sine voltage waves. These magnetic fields you speak of in all sorts of devices may not be of the same frequency as those that precede wx fronts and those that trigger the AFIB incidences, or am I totally off base? I understand what you are saying and thought the same thing myself, but I can tell you that I can absolutely feel the pressure in my chest coming on, then check the wx front maps, and almost always, there is a large low pressure front approaching at a distance somewhere around Nebraska to Mo., and headed for Kentucky. After the front passes the pressure and rhythm problems go away. Now that isn't to say that they are totally responsible, because I have other things that trigger the attacks as well, but in the Summer they are infrequent, and when these fronts come through in the Fall and Winter, they occur much more frequently. My cardiologist is very aware of low pressure cold weather fronts causing these incidences, and the studies that have been done in Norway and Sweden. Unfortunately, the cardiologists only solution is more drugs, which aren't effective during these conditions as compared to other AFIB triggers. I am interested in developing an out of phase generator that would detect and cancel the magnetic effects that must be riding on an electrical wave, and interested in knowing how to detect them, and how the combo of the voltage/magnetic field is structured. Thank you.

 

[Paul Schuster]

I don't think it has anything to do with lightning. I know that lightning doesn't have to be occurring for it to happen.

 

[Dale]

PUB MED:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18924023
..."A considerable influence of a cold front and occlusion of cold front type on increases in admissions to CCU for AF paroxysms was observed

This is the only important reference, the other ones were simply citing this study. The problem is that the link between EM waves and AF in this paper was entirely speculative with absolutely no evidence presented in support of that speculation.

The data that they actually collected said that there was a relationship between a cold front and AF, but no relationship between any of the measured parameters (pressure, temperature, cloudiness, wind speed) and AF. So the data from this paper at best support the idea that some other effect (besides pressure, temperature, cloudiness, and wind speed) is involved, not that the other effect is EM.

BUT the paper is extremely weak evidence even for that much. The methods section gives very little detail of either the data collection or the statistical methodology used. The fit model is unjustified and no diagnostics are reported, nor are even basic statistical measures like the p values. No attention is paid to multiple comparisons, model selection, over fitting, or other standard statistical concerns.

And again the evidence and analysis provide no support for the connection between EM and AF which is described in the discussion section.

 

[rootone]

If atmospheric pressure change and magnetic fields produced by lightning are both eliminated, I can't think of any possible other mechanism by which a weather front could cause symptoms of heart problems even when the front is directly overhead, let alone a day or more away.

 

[ZapperZ]

If there is such a magnetic field strong enough to cause such physiological effect, it would have been easy enough to detect such a thing via sticking various antennae and measuring the changes as a cold front approaches. This would have been the most obvious way to verify and correlate.

Yet, I don't see this most obvious test being done. In other words, the presence of this magnetic field is still unverified. It would be irrational to skip that step and try to discuss what causes it.

Zz.

 

[Paul Schuster]

Yes I agree ZZ, that it would have to be detected. That is why I am trying to get some idea of what frequency range to look for, so I can experiment with detection.

 

[davenn]

I don't think it has anything to do with lightning. I know that lightning doesn't have to be occurring for it to happen.

well any EM emission would be the strongest from a storm front compared to any other cool front
if these people weren't sensitive to an approaching front full of lightning discharges, they are VERY UNLIKELY to be affected
by any approaching front that doesn't have lightning discharges assoc with it

and as Dalespam said ...

The problem is that the link between EM waves and AF in this paper was entirely speculative with absolutely no evidence presented in support of that speculation. The data that they actually collected said that there was a relationship between a cold front and AF, but no relationship between any of the measured parameters (pressure, temperature, cloudiness, wind speed) and AF. So the data from this paper at best support the idea that some other effect (besides pressure, temperature, cloudiness, and wind speed) is involved, not that the other effect is EM.

there has been no empirical studies done from a real scientific point. Its all speculation

On a related side note
MY seismograph system ( earthquake recorder for those that don't know) can detect approaching cold fronts up to 24 hrs before they arriveDave

 

[Paul Schuster]

I would have to agree with you. There is a big gap there. I will try and find some other sources now that I know what to look for. Thank you for leading me in that direction. I can say however that through these studies, and my own experiences that large low pressure fronts are correlated with these AFIB incidences. If not EM then something. I also believe if someone can actually find what that is, a corrective device could very well be possible, which would be a huge medical discovery. The gap in research that you mentioned could be the key to that discovery. Thank you.

 

[davenn]

That is why I am trying to get some idea of what frequency range to look for, so I can experiment with detection.

a magnetic field on its own doesn't have a frequency
and if the magnetic field is moving it then becomes an EM field

 

[sophiecentaur]

a magnetic field on its own doesn't have a frequency
and if the magnetic field is moving it then becomes an EM field

It all seems very tenuous and there are pressure and temperature changes that can actually be measured a could correlate with the observes AF effects. There could be other causes, such as spending more time in doors and walking about less in bad weather. To make any sense at all, the frequency of the EM would have to be suggested and measured. Putting AF sufferers in Faraday cages whilst a weather front passes would be a possible approach.

 

[Paul Schuster]

well any EM emission would be the strongest from a storm front compared to any other cool front
if these people weren't sensitive to an approaching front full of lightning discharges, they are VERY UNLIKELY to be affected
by any approaching front that doesn't have lightning discharges assoc with it

and as Dalespam said ...there has been no empirical studies done from a real scientific point. Its all speculation

On a related side note
MY seismograph system ( earthquake recorder for those that don't know) can detect approaching cold fronts up to 24 hrs before they arriveDave

What you need to understand is that this pressure that I can feel in my chest, is steady, I have lots of problems with my heart skipping beats, and at some point will go into full AFIB. This happens until the front passes. It isn't like a lightning storm that comes and goes. Lightning storms don't bother me. There is a big gap here between the medical field and the physics field. Physics needs empirical evidence, the medical field can't even explain the placebo effect and it is more of a "practice of medicine" than absolute proof. I think that in this gap lies the answer.

 

[ZapperZ]

What you need to understand is that this pressure that I can feel in my chest, is steady, I have lots of problems with my heart skipping beats, and at some point will go into full AFIB. This happens until the front passes. It isn't like a lightning storm that comes and goes. Lightning storms don't bother me. There is a big gap here between the medical field and the physics field. Physics needs empirical evidence, the medical field can't even explain the placebo effect and it is more of a "practice of medicine" than absolute proof. I think that in this gap lies the answer.

But you too are not understanding this gap, because in physics, what you described is not sufficient evidence to narrow down the cause and effect. What you have is an ANECDOTAL description of a possible correlation. This does not imply a causation even if this correlation can be established, which it hasn't.

If you want to be as rigorous as what we do in physics, then you need to first and foremost establish clearly the correlation. Then THEN establish the causation, all using proper and sufficient statistics, not just using what you described.

Zz.

 

[Paul Schuster]

But you too are not understanding this gap, because in physics, what you described is not sufficient evidence to narrow down the cause and effect. What you have is an ANECDOTAL description of a possible correlation. This does not imply a causation even if this correlation can be established, which it hasn't.

If you want to be as rigorous as what we do in physics, then you need to first and foremost establish clearly the correlation. Then THEN establish the causation, all using proper and sufficient statistics, not just using what you described.

Zz.

I agree with that. I received my information from medical research papers which I thought was more than an anecdotal description, but perhaps I was wrong. I can't believe they would come up with these claims without any foundation. They could have easily said it was caused by the devil. However I still think something is missing here and I will pursue it to find out. Perhaps the authors of these medical studies can explain where they came up with magnetic fields. Thanks for your help.

 

[Paul Schuster]

You guys are tough, but I like it. At least I am talking to people with intelligence, a rare occurrence in Kentucky.

Ok, I found more detail in the Pub Med article, on how the researchers describe EMF from low pressure fronts and how they relate to AFIB.. Maybe not absolute proof, but it does explain their take on how emf is generated from low pressure weather fronts... excerpt...<<Edit: very long excerpt removed>>

 

[ZapperZ]

I wish you make exact citation to whatever it is that you are quoting (this, btw, is also a standard procedure in science). Also, if you did a copy-and-paste, this was a VERY strange copy-and-paste.

Next, there is nothing special with that frequency range of low kHz. Your computers and cellphones emit in that range. So if you have an adverse effect to it, you will feel it all the time! It is a common frequency. I should know, we have to deal with EM background noise all the time in our measurements. So why would people suddenly feel ONLY the EM radiation from the fronts?

I'd like to know the amplitudes of these waves when compared to the background noise in that range.

Zz.

 

[Dale]

What you need to understand is that this pressure that I can feel in my chest, is steady, I have lots of problems with my heart skipping beats, and at some point will go into full AFIB. This happens until the front passes. It isn't like a lightning storm that comes and goes. Lightning storms don't bother me.

So your anecdotal evidence seems to go along with that paper. Both provide evidence that there is a weather related effect and neither provide evidence that there is an EM related effect.

There is a big gap here between the medical field and the physics field. Physics needs empirical evidence, the medical field can't even explain the placebo effect and it is more of a "practice of medicine" than absolute proof. I think that in this gap lies the answer.

The medical field needs empirical evidence also. Although there may not be an explanation for the placebo effect that you like, the empirical evidence that it exists is overwhelming. That is not the case here. The evidence supporting a connection between AF and weather-induced EM is essentially nonexistent.

 

[Dale]

Ok, I found more detail in the Pub Med article, on how the researchers describe EMF from low pressure fronts and how they relate to AFIB.. Maybe not absolute proof, but it does explain their take on how emf is generated from low pressure weather fronts... excerpt...

No need to quote verbatim large sections of the paper. You already provided the link so anyone can read it. If you have a specific point then quote a specific sentence or two. If you have a general opinion then just refer to the relevant sections.

Did you not read my previous response regarding the paper? Note that nothing regarding EM and weather was actually tested. The AF-EM connection appears in the discussion, but there is no related material in the methods or results.

Think critically about the claim. If a scientist performs an experiment, collects some data, and makes a claim but the claim is unrelated to the experiment and unsupported by the data, then how credible should you consider that claim? Do you accept the claim just because they say so? If you do, then what about when a different scientist makes a different but similarly unsupported claim?

 

[rootone]

In the main reference they seem to be more interested in seasonal patterns rather than the passage of temporary weather systems.

 

[davenn]

. To make any sense at all, the frequency of the EM would have to be suggested and measured. Putting AF sufferers in Faraday cages whilst a weather front passes would be a possible approach.

.best testing setup anyone has suggested yet
would be pretty good proof of an EM effect or not

D

 

[Paul Schuster]

Ok, my apologies, I respect your professional format, but I came on here to find information and guidance concerning low pressure fronts and how emf was generated from them so I could investigate it further, not write a formal scientific paper or prove anything. Many of the questions and objections raised by my responders are the same questions I have had. My career has been in digital electronics including previous work for NASA, so I have a good understanding of electronics but fall short on emf theory. The first posting listing the article only referred to an abstract, not the entire article. The lengthy cut and paste was from the complete research paper, and explained their take on how emf was generated from low pressure fronts so I thought it was pertinent as additional information. It was also a translated version and had rough spots in it. The full paper also states that it was not their intent to prove the relation of emf and AFIB, but only to open the door for more investigation, which in short is what I am attempting to do. Regardless of how well the referenced paper does in proving this theory, I know from personal experience that something about low pressure fronts triggers AFIB. Therefore my next step is to build a large Faraday cage and use it when these weather fronts affect me. That way I will know if it is related to emf or some other weather condition, and then go from there. Thank you, I have enjoyed these exchanges, and it is good to know that there are forms of intelligence out there.

 

[sophiecentaur]

I came on here to find information and guidance concerning low pressure fronts and how emf was generated

Before trying to explain or predict this, it would be necessary to detect those fields, to prove they are present and to correlated them with the weather. I can't see anything other than a suggestion that it may be a real phenomenon.
If you intend building an effective Faraday cage, you will need more than a few sheets of chicken wire. The first thing that's needed to to identify what frequency band you are interested in and build the cage appropriately. That really is a monster project, if you want to be sure that your results really constitute valid evidence. When I suggested a Farday cage, I was really assuming that it would be done properly.

 

[Paul Schuster]

Before trying to explain or predict this, it would be necessary to detect those fields, to prove they are present and to correlated them with the weather. I can't see anything other than a suggestion that it may be a real phenomenon.
If you intend building an effective Faraday cage, you will need more than a few sheets of chicken wire. The first thing that's needed to to identify what frequency band you are interested in and build the cage appropriately. That really is a monster project, if you want to be sure that your results really constitute valid evidence. When I suggested a Farday cage, I was really assuming that it would be done properly.

Do you have any links that talk about building large Faraday cages? I have a professional woodworking shop for the frame and can fabricate anything. All I need are specs. and info.

 

[Paul Schuster]

Do you have any links that talk about building large Faraday cages? I have a professional woodworking shop for the frame and can fabricate anything. All I need are specs. and info.

Also what would you suggest for an EMF meter or detection system?

 

[sophiecentaur]

Do you have any links that talk about building large Faraday cages? I have a professional woodworking shop for the frame and can fabricate anything. All I need are specs. and info.

You would need to supply the spec, based, at the very least, on expected field strength values and frequency. At the moment we could be dealing with anything from vlf (a few tens of kHz - or even lower) to mf (up to 1MHz, perhaps).

Also what would you suggest for an EMF meter or detection system?

It would all depend on the frequency and level involved (it isn't going to be 'DC' as there is a lower limit to the rate that your body reacts to 'inputs').

There is another approach and that could be to irradiate yourself and try to stimulate the condition. Some sort of double blind experiment would be needed, to eliminate bias. PF doesn't usually approve of dangerous practices but I wouldn't think that the risk would be significant - you can identify when your AF gets worse and turn off the source. Even then, you would need some idea of the frequencies involved or you could be a long time in finding what affects you, if anything.
I suggest that an extended search on the topic could yield some information - if the whole thing is actually worth while, then someone else must have been working on it. AF is a significant enough problem. I have a touch of it myself, enough to delay some surgery, a few years ago and to produce some really bizarre heart rythms during exercise when I was younger. Until an anaesthetist spotted it, I thought it was a pretty normal phenomenon, aamof.

 

[Paul Schuster]

You would need to supply the spec, based, at the very least, on expected field strength values and frequency. At the moment we could be dealing with anything from vlf (a few tens of kHz - or even lower) to mf (up to 1MHz, perhaps).It would all depend on the frequency and level involved (it isn't going to be 'DC' as there is a lower limit to the rate that your body reacts to 'inputs').

There is another approach and that could be to irradiate yourself and try to stimulate the condition. Some sort of double blind experiment would be needed, to eliminate bias. PF doesn't usually approve of dangerous practices but I wouldn't think that the risk would be significant - you can identify when your AF gets worse and turn off the source. Even then, you would need some idea of the frequencies involved or you could be a long time in finding what affects you, if anything.
I suggest that an extended search on the topic could yield some information - if the whole thing is actually worth while, then someone else must have been working on it. AF is a significant enough problem. I have a touch of it myself, enough to delay some surgery, a few years ago and to produce some really bizarre heart rythms during exercise when I was younger. Until an anaesthetist spotted it, I thought it was a pretty normal phenomenon, aamof.

So your speaking of building some sort of variable frequency or sweep frequency generator? No problem, but where does the electromagnetic component of those ac waves come in? Remember I am fairly ignorant on this. I have seen emf models where the emf wave exists perpendicular to the sine wave.. Do emf waves more or less ride carrier frequency waves, much like AM rides on a carrier wave but only perpendicular to it, or is the EMf portion just inherently part of the ac frequency wave and you get both waves regardless?... Geez I hope that made some sort of sense...