Mechanism for extinction by scattering?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the mechanism of light extinction due to scattering by air molecules when a monochromatic laser beam is directed towards a light sensor. Participants explore the relationship between the electric field amplitude of the electromagnetic wave and the scattering process, considering both classical and quantum mechanical perspectives.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions how the electric field amplitude decreases as the sensor is moved away from the laser, suggesting that destructive interference from air molecules may be involved.
  • Another participant notes that scattering is a quantum mechanical process but suggests a qualitative understanding can be gained using small antennas.
  • There is a discussion about the phase relationship between the oscillating electrons in air molecules and the incident electric field, with conflicting views on whether the induced electric field is in phase or out of phase with the incident field.
  • Some participants argue that if the frequency of light is much lower than the resonance frequency of the electrons, the induced electric field will be opposite to the external field, while others challenge this interpretation.
  • A later reply proposes that while a single molecule cannot produce destructive interference, a large plane of oscillating molecules can, leading to extinction effects.
  • One participant introduces the idea of damping forces related to radiation reaction, suggesting that for frequencies below a certain threshold, the scattered wave may appear to slow down light propagation.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the phase relationships and mechanisms of scattering, with no consensus reached on the nature of the electric field interactions or the implications for extinction. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the specifics of how scattering affects the electric field amplitude.

Contextual Notes

Participants acknowledge the complexity of the scattering process, including the dependence on the distance from the scattering molecules and the frequency of the incident light relative to the resonance frequency of the electrons. There are also references to the limitations of one-dimensional models in capturing the full behavior of the electric fields involved.

damosuz
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Let's say you have a monochromatic laser beam directed towards a light sensor. As you move the sensor away from the laser, the intensity read by the sensor will decrease because of scattering on air molecules (extinction). Since intensity is proportional to the square of the E-field amplitude of the EM wave, this means that the E-field amplitude has decreased in the beam. My question is : how?

In my mind, the only way to decrease the E-field is if the air molecules produce an E-field that interferes destructively with the incident E-field. However, by treating air molecules as electrons oscillating on a spring, you get constructive interference for visible incident light.
 
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damosuz said:
However, by treating air molecules as electrons oscillating on a spring, you get constructive interference for visible incident light.
How?
Note that the far field looks different from the near field.

Scattering is a quantum mechanical process, but you should get a qualitative picture with small antennas.
 
mfb said:
How?

Note that the far field looks different from the near field.

If light frequency is way smaller than resonance frequency of electron in molecule, electron will oscillate in phase with the force, thus accelerate 180° with the force. The EM wave produced by the molecule will then be 180° with the force, thus in phase with the incident E-field.

I agree that far field is different than near field, but should we observe the same extinction whether we put the light sensor close to the air molecules or not (by putting it at the end of a long vacuum tube)?
 
damosuz said:
thus accelerate 180° with the force.
That is not in phase.
If the frequency of light is small, the electron will follow the force vector in phase, and the induced electric field is opposite to the external field.
damosuz said:
I agree that far field is different than near field, but should we observe the same extinction whether we put the light sensor close to the air molecules or not (by putting it at the end of a long vacuum tube)?
Scattering will look completely different if your sensor is within 1-2 wavelengths of things that scatter.
 
mfb said:
That is not in phase.

Electron accelerates at 180° with the force, but force is 180° with incident E-field, so acceleration (and emitted E-field) is in phase with incident E-field.
 
damosuz said:
Electron accelerates at 180° with the force
No, it follows the force direction.
 
mfb said:
No, it follows the force direction.

You mean it follows the force in the sense that its position will be positive if force is positive, right? Which means acceleration will be 180° with the force...
 
I get a different 180° count.

Anyway, what you suggest would violate conservation of energy. Even if scattering would be purely classical the phase has to be right.
 
I think I found the answer. It seems like you cannot get destructive interference with a single molecule, but if you consider a large plane of such molecules oscillating in phase, then you can show that the E-field produced by the plane will be at 180° with the velocity of the electrons. If you consider a damping force (which would be related to radiation reaction for a gas), then for f < f0 you get a scattered wave at 90° with the incident wave (giving the impression that light travels slower) and another at 180° (responsible for extinction).
 
  • #10
damosuz said:
You mean it follows the force in the sense that its position will be positive if force is positive, right? Which means acceleration will be 180° with the force...

This is indeed the case if the frequency of the external field is much lower than the natural frequency of the oscillating electron.

It can be shown that the radiation component of the electric field due to such oscillating electron, at a place farther down the line of propagation of the external wave, has the same sign as the external electric field. Thus the electron increases the total electric intensity in this direction on this line, "downstream". On the other hand, the electric field due to the electron on a half-line upstream now has two traveling waves of opposite velocity and opposite phase at each point of half-line upstream. Thus the electron decreases the total electric intensity on this half-line.

In the following graph, field of external linearly polarized wave (electric field has only y component) coming from the left (violet), the radiation field of the charged particle at ##x=0## (green) and their sum (gray) are depicted on the line of propagation at time when the force on the particle is zero. Notice how the field gets decrease in front of the oscillating particle but increased behind it. This is only one-dimensional view of things though; there are other points of the surrounding space where the field strength may be higher or lower. This is significant only in the vicinity of the electron; far from it, the external wave dominates.

4kguh1.jpg
 

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