New Product Idea and Book Giveaway -- Who Wants it? (N95 straw)

[berkeman]

EDIT -- "Who wants it" -- Obviously with no obligation to me, since I'm publishing it on a public forum.

So I just saw the very cute "Human Kindness" commercial on TV again, where the Dad sees his son with respiratory issues having trouble blowing out the candle on his 1 y/o birthday cake. The Dad goes and gets a straw to help the kid blow out the candle. Very nice.

But it reminded me of how bad the tradition of blowing out candles on birthday cakes is from a healtcare perspective. The last thing you want to have happen before you eat something is to have somebody blow all over it. Jeeze, especially a little kid (AKA "Germ Factory").

So putting the two things together, how about somebody markets straws in the birthday cake section of the supermarket that have N95 filters in them? The birthday person still gets to blow out the candles, and the "Germ Factory" consideration goes away.

Let's see how good the lung function is on us older folks blowing out our candles! Remember the lung function test from the great movie "The Right Stuff"?

 

[berkeman]

BTW, there is a bit of an engineering challenge to this project as well. Just stuffing some N95 filter material in the middle of a constant-radius plastic straw won't work very well.

Quiz Question -- Why not?

So what is the optimum (marketable) profile for an N95 birthday cake straw?

 

[berkeman]

Quiz Question -- Why not?

Very cool -- this thread has now expanded into a PF Book Giveaway thread. Thanks to Greg and Clifford V. Johnson , we have 2 copies of Dr. johnson's book to give away as prizes in this thread.

I would like to propose that your product ideas are posted in two categories: Professional and Amateur:

• If you are a professional in ME or Aero or a related field, please post using the Spoiler tags, so that the Amateur participants won't see the answers too soon
• If you are an Amateur/hobbiest, go ahead and post your thoughts on the design (no peaking at the spoilers please)

The design challenge is to incorporate germ protection into a straw or other device to make blowing out birthday cake candles germ-free and still fun.

Reference https://www.physicsforums.com/insights/interview-theoretical-physicist-clifford-johnson/

 

[Stavros Kiri]

Interesting and innovative ...

 

[gmax137]

The design challenge is to incorporate germ protection into a straw or other device to make blowing out birthday cake candles germ-free and still fun.

Spoiler

How about a curly straw? The spit / phlegm particles are removed from the airstream by the "cyclone" effect as they pass through the loops in the straws. This doesn't completely decontaminate the airstream but it removes a lot of the yuck. The straw would be thrown out after one use.

 

[BillTre]

While I am not an engineer, I am posting in spoilers since I have had a lot of experience using filters in both lab and aquaculture situations.
I leave the detailed sizing considerations to the engineers.

Just stuffing some N95 filter material in the middle of a constant-radius plastic straw won't work very well.

Quiz Question -- Why not?

The design challenge is to incorporate germ protection into a straw or other device to make blowing out birthday cake candles germ-free and still fun.

Work around for small filter size:
Alternative method to a filter:

 

[BillTre]

Well, too bad my spoilers did not work (after two tries!).
Its some alien technology to me.

 

[berkeman]

Just use [ spoiler ] [ /spoiler ] manual tags without the extra spaces...

Spoiler

 

[BillTre]

I'll try again later.

 

[lekh2003]

Why can't you stick some n95 filter in the straw? Can someone explain to me? I withdraw myself from the competition but spare me of the suspense.

Is it because the particles will block air flow? Then how about a slowly an increasing radius towards the mouth end. Like a cone, but the mouthpiece is smaller.

 

[256bits]

An admission of my submission.
This has to be a winner as a lot of thought and effort went into it.
Now all that is needed is some crowd funding to put it all together.

 

[Stavros Kiri]

An admission of my submission.
This has to be a winner as a lot of thought and effort went into it.
Now all that is needed is some crowd funding to put it all together.

'Like' for the possitive thinking etc.
However, the file won't open for me (after it's downloaded). Does anyone else have the same problem? It could be my device.

 

[berkeman]

However, the file won't open for me (after it's downloaded). Does anyone else have the same problem? It could be my device.

No problem opening the PDF on my desktop PC.

 

[Stavros Kiri]

No problem opening the PDF on my desktop PC.

Ok thanks. I'll find a way.
In the meantime, here's the solution that I propose: filter on the mouth (+ either straw or not) ...
[Simple!]

Edit note: I'm not just saying this as a joke, but the idea comes from surgery [facial] masks etc.. The question is how you get an effective blow and how hard you can blow etc. , but I think that with the right construction of the [mouth] filter / mask it would be possible.
(No need to mention though that I am an amateur/hobbiest in those ...)

2nd edit: other idea: multiple straws, all connected to one filtered end etc.

 

[Stavros Kiri]

Please (to everyone) take notice and review my significant editing on my previous post ...

 

[256bits]

Screen Capture as a jpg may be of help,
I am most likely disqualified due to flaunting of the rules.

 

[fireflies]

I am simply wondering, how much germ is it taking from a blow through the straw?

 

[berkeman]

I am simply wondering, how much germ is it taking from a blow through the straw?

I did a little searching just now, and found this:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...dles-increases-bacteria-cake-1-400/536178001/

"Preliminary tests of blowing on nutrient agar indicated that bioaerosols in human breath expelled from the mouth may be a source of bacteria transferred to cake surfaces," says the abstract in lingo seldom heard at birthday parties. Nutrient agar, to the uninitiated, is stuff used to cultivate microbes.

But reading more articles, it looks like some healthcare professionals don't think it increases your chance of getting sick very much. I'll have to do a bit more reading to get a good idea of the issues.

 

[BillTre]

OK, trying again.

Just stuffing some N95 filter material in the middle of a constant-radius plastic straw won't work very well.

Quiz Question -- Why not?

Spoiler

Most modern filters with particular pore sizes (like N95) are membrane filters. Their resistance to flow will go up as their surface area is reduced. The cross section of a straw is small, thus it would be difficult to get much human lung powered flow through it.

The design challenge is to incorporate germ protection into a straw or other device to make blowing out birthday cake candles germ-free and still fun.

Spoiler: Filter Approach

Use a larger filter.
1) Expand the area of the filter by making a mouth piece for the straw so that a filter several inches in diameter could fit into it (similar to standard syringe filters used for sterilizing solutions in labs, but bigger.), or
2) Fold the filter so that it is fluted and can fit into a smaller space. These can also be bought in syringe filter-like housings.
The filter would still have resistance and would have to be sized for the desired flow rate and the amount of pressure that could be applied (not trivial).

Spoiler: Non-Filter Approach

Use a UV sterilizer to sterilize the air as it goes by. This would require a very strong UV to sterilize the air in its brief exposure to the UV if it is blown rapidly. A UV LED or a UV laser might be required. It might be possible to power and size it similar to vaping devices.

 

[Hendrik Boom]

EDIT -- "Who wants it" -- Obviously with no obligation to me, since I'm publishing it on a public forum. [emoji2]

So I just saw the very cute "Human Kindness" commercial on TV again, where the Dad sees his son with respiratory issues having trouble blowing out the candle on his 1 y/o birthday cake. The Dad goes and gets a straw to help the kid blow out the candle. Very nice. [emoji2]

But it reminded me of how bad the tradition of blowing out candles on birthday cakes is from a healtcare perspective. The last thing you want to have happen before you eat something is to have somebody blow all over it. Jeeze, especially a little kid (AKA "Germ Factory").

So putting the two things together, how about somebody markets straws in the birthday cake section of the supermarket that have N95 filters in them? The birthday person still gets to blow out the candles, and the "Germ Factory" consideration goes away.

Let's see how good the lung function is on us older folks blowing out our candles! Remember the lung function test from the great movie "The Right Stuff"? [emoji2]

It may be that just focusing the blow directly on the flame significantly reduces the amount of germs reaching the cake, even without a filter.

 

[Stavros Kiri]

It may be that just focusing the blow directly on the flame significantly reduces the amount of germs reaching the cake, even without a filter.

a) How can you focus "the blow directly on the flame"? (Perhaps having many straws, with a variable space configuration, each one pointing on each candle ? ...)
b) Even with heat nearby, a great percentage of the germs may still end up on top of the cake.
Whether that's sanitarily dangerous or risky to get sick is a different story.
See also post #18 above.
Personaly I don't like having extra germs or small spittle or mouth humidity drops ending up on my cake for many reasons. [Increasing the chance of getting sick is only one of them, but it doesn't always happen - see ahead] Thus, I think, in any case @berkeman 's straw quest is I think useful.
Now regarding

I did a little searching just now, and found this:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...dles-increases-bacteria-cake-1-400/536178001/

But reading more articles, it looks like some healthcare professionals don't think it increases your chance of getting sick very much. I'll have to do a bit more reading to get a good idea of the issues.

Some bacteria are already airborne (e.g. in a birthday party). Viruses need a host to survive but some of them in the meantime (before finding one) they can survive and transmit for a respectable time period inside/via small humidity droplets, also floating around in the air across a respectable distance/range (max ~17-19 meters, I think, if I remember correctly). So, practically, they are also airborne and scattered all throughout e.g. a regular size birthday party room. Therefore, even just going to a birthday party may not be such a good idea after all anyway (of course we'll go if we have to), and the cake-blow problem can be only minor.
However, I think, the straw problem is still useful for two reasons (at least):
1. Who would want to increase the chances further?
2. You can probably filter out too germs (bacteria or viruses) that do not fall in the above categories that I described, and be a lot safer (e.g. with possible little actual spittle drops on the cake more microorganisms can transmit ...).

 

[berkeman]

Good proposals so far, and a pretty useful discussion overall, IMO. It's interesting how the use of a straw to blow out the candles on a birthday cake instead of the traditional blabbering high-velocity wide-angle blow might help to limit the germs deposited on the cake and might work pretty well all by itself, or in concert with small changes to the straw. Good stuff, IMO.

We'll run the book contest through the end of this coming weekend. Tune up your proposals or post new ones as appropriate.

 

[berkeman]

BTW, I still haven't seen the diagram that I expected to see in an experienced ME/Aero's Spoiler post. Maybe they are holding back...

 

[berkeman]

BTW, I still haven't seen the diagram that I expected to see in an experienced ME/Aero's Spoiler post.

And actually, based on a couple of the posts in this thread, I think there is an even better (and more marketable) straw design. Pretty cool.

 

[Stavros Kiri]

And actually, based on a couple of the posts in this thread, I think there is an even better (and more marketable) straw design. Pretty cool.

May be we can soon buy one! ...

 

[256bits]

I did a little searching just now, and found this:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...dles-increases-bacteria-cake-1-400/536178001/

But reading more articles, it looks like some healthcare professionals don't think it increases your chance of getting sick very much. I'll have to do a bit more reading to get a good idea of the issues.

For a lot of infections, a good many would be needed to inflict injury upon the host.
For other diseases, and for those with compromised immune systems, not a lot.

A small discussion;
https://www.reddit.com/r/askscience/comments/1go68r/can_i_get_sick_from_a_single_bacteria_cell_or/
Tags:
ID50
LD50
Infectious dose

See:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infectious_dose
It varies greatly.
Of course, they do not mention the pathway - mouth, nose, eye, etc...
Infectious doses for some known microorganisms

• Escherichia coli : very large (106 - 108 organisms)
• Salmonella : quite large in order to definitely establish infection (e.g. >105 organisms) but infection may also be established by lower numbers (e.g. 10s of organisms) [2]
• Vibrio cholerae : relatively large (104 - 106 organisms)
• Bacillus anthracis : relatively large (104 spores)
• Campylobacter jejuni: low (500 organisms)
• Francisella tularensis: very low (10-50 organisms)
• Shigella : very low (10s of organisms)
• Cryptosporidium parvum : very low (10 to 30 oocysts)
• Escherichia coli O1577 : very low (<10 organisms)
• Mycobacterium tuberculosis : very low (<10 organisms) [3]
• Entamoeba coli : extremely low (from 1 cyst)
• HIV : extremely variable, some studies suggest that a viral count or load of 1500/ml to 10000/ml or more can be contagious between a continuous unprotected sex partner like a spouse approximately 20%/year.

 

[Stephenk53]

I am an amateur with no experience what so ever, so my ideas will likely be terrible, any way, Id day use a curvy straw that has a strong heat source or UV light at the end to kill bacteria. Or have a device that when you blow on it, it completely blocks your air flow to the cake and reacts by creating its own flow instead so no bacteria is transferred from you, plus since your air does not blow the candles out directly, if you have weak lungs like me then you can still easily blow them out

 

[Ygggdrasil]

Some lateral thinking:
Low tech approach: Just give the kid a bottle of canned air.

There's-an-app-for-that approach: Design a butane-powered "candle" that connects to an augmented-reality smartphone app via bluetooth. The kid swipes the candle on the phone, which triggers the candle to turn off.

 

[256bits]

it completely blocks your air flow to the cake and reacts by creating its own flow instead

A barrier of some sort?
Think and brainstorm some more of what type of barrier could do this. ie Create another flow of air from your flow.

( No one said "No coaching!" )

 

[berkeman]

Last couple days to submit your product ideas. There have some very good ideas so far, both from professionals and hobbyist folks.

BTW, I bought a copy of the book that is being given away in this contest, and I received it yesterday. Here is what I posted about it in another thread -- fun book!

I agree. I bought the book and it came in the mail yesterday. It's a very unique book, and I'm having fun reading it so far.

One part I really like is at the end of each chapter, he's included comments and references about some of the things that have been covered in the dialogs in that chapter. That includes references at various levels, from popular literature to peer-reviewed journal articles. Good stuff.

View attachment 221381
View attachment 221382

 

[Stephenk53]

A barrier of some sort?
Think and brainstorm some more of what type of barrier could do this. ie Create another flow of air from your flow.

( No one said "No coaching!" )

Perhaps it has a fully closed end but has a mini fan that when you blow on creates a tiny electric charge that then activates a relay that allows a battery to power a larger fan to blow out the candle

 

[Stavros Kiri]

Last couple days to submit your product ideas. There have some very good ideas so far, both from professionals and hobbyist folks.

BTW, I bought a copy of the book that is being given away in this contest, and I received it yesterday. Here is what I posted about it in another thread -- fun book!
View attachment 221384
View attachment 221385

Enhanced the photos and did some reading already ...

 

[berkeman]

Enhanced the photos and did some reading already ...

LOL. I guess that's covered under "Fair Use" copyright law...

Because the PF was down for most of yesterday, I'm extending the deadline for submissions through the end of today. The two winners of the book will be announced tomorrow. Thanks for a fun thread, folks.

 

[OmCheeto]

How about a turbocharger whistle candle blower-outer.
No filter required.

I found something similar online, though I think it's just half of what's needed.

ps. I watched a video with Clifford Johnson, the author of the book, and he has a British accent. So I checked out his wiki page, and found that he was born in London, 50 years ago, today.

Happy Birthday Professor Johnson!

pps. Hope you didn't spit on the cake!

ppps. @berkeman , did you do all of this on purpose? Had the forum shut down for a whole day so the contest would land on his birthday? If not, that's quite a coincidence, methinks.

 

[Stavros Kiri]

I may have started reading the book already but my expectations for the contest aren't too high (I'm just amateur/hobbyist). [Of course ... you never know! ... ]
But in any case it seems that everything I have to propose here comes from the combination of two of my previous posts. I present it here again fully, dividing it now into 3 parts:
A)

here's the solution that I propose: filter on the mouth (+ either straw or not) ...
[Simple!]

Edit note: I'm not just saying this as a joke, but the idea comes from surgery [facial] masks etc.. The question is how you get an effective blow and how hard you can blow etc. , but I think that with the right construction of the [mouth] filter / mask it would be possible.
(No need to mention though that I am an amateur/hobbyist in those ...)

B)

other idea: multiple straws, all connected to one filtered end etc.

C) In case we want to use the heat from the candle flames as "germ deflector shield":

How can you focus "the blow directly on the flame"? (Perhaps having many straws, with a variable space configuration, each one pointing on each candle ? ...)