No prefix: Understanding the Total Force on a Mass Attached by Two Springs

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Homework Help Overview

The problem involves a mass connected to two identical springs on a frictionless surface, requiring an understanding of forces acting on the mass when it is displaced. The context includes concepts from mechanics, specifically Hooke's law and the dynamics of spring systems.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory, Assumption checking, Mathematical reasoning

Approaches and Questions Raised

  • The original poster attempts to derive the total force acting on the mass using two different approaches based on Newton's second law. They question the correctness of their first approach and the signs used in their equations. Other participants provide insights on the forces exerted by the springs and discuss the implications of the signs in the equations.

Discussion Status

Participants are actively engaging with the problem, exploring different interpretations of the forces involved. Some have provided clarifications regarding the signs in the equations and the reasoning behind them, while others are questioning the assumptions made in the original poster's derivations.

Contextual Notes

There is an ongoing discussion about the correct interpretation of the forces from the springs, particularly regarding the signs in the equations and the displacement definitions. Participants are also considering the implications of the springs being stretched or compressed.

CGandC
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1. Homework Statement
The following problem is an example from the book ' Berkely - Waves by Frank S. Crawford Jr '.

Mass 'M' slides on a frictionless surface. It is connected to rigid walls by means of two identical springs, each of which has zero mass, spring constant 'K' and relaxed length 'Ao' .
At equilibrium position , each spring is stretched to length 'A' and thus each spring has tension 'K(A-Ao)' at equilibrium.

Find the total force acting on the mass in the z direction when it is stretched to the right.
note: in the pictures it is written 'a' instead of 'A' , I used 'A' just for convenience
upload_2018-2-8_0-30-5.png


Solution : Fz = -2K(z-A)
Derivation:
upload_2018-2-8_0-34-25.png


2. Homework Equations
Hooke's law : F = -k(x-xo)

3. The Attempt at a Solution
I don't fully understand the derivation to the solution in terms of coordinates, Especially the second term: ' +K(2A-z-Ao) '

Here's my attempt: I redrew the third image as follows:

upload_2018-2-8_1-11-0.png


Solving:

Approach 1:
I used Newtons second law on the mass : Fz = -k(z-Ao)+k(z-(2A-Ao) )

Explanation:
'-k(z-Ao)' because of the left spring , the displacement of the mass from the left spring's relaxation point is 'z-A0'

'+k(z-(2A-Ao) )' because of the right spring ( which is compressed) . the displacement is as it is because 'z' is the coordinate of the mass and ' 2A-Ao ' is the relaxation coordinate of the right spring. hence , I wrote ' z - (2A-Ao) '

However,this approach seems false because: Fz=-k(z-Ao)+k(z-(2A-Ao) ) =-kz+kAo+kz-2Ak+kAo=2k(Ao-A)
and this does not match the solution, so after that I tried another approach:

Approach 2:

Fz = -k(z-Ao)-k(z-(2A-Ao) )

Explanation:

everything's the same as in approach 1 , but I only changed sign on the second expression, from
'+k(z-(2A-Ao) )' to '-k(z-(2A-Ao) )'
using this approach I get the right answer:
Fz = -k(z-Ao)-k(z-(2A-Ao) ) = -2k(z-A)


So the questions are:
1.why was my first approach incorrect? ( isn't the sign on the second term suppost to be positive? [ because the right spring moves the mass to the right ] )
2. even though eventually I got to the right answer using approach 2, was this a 'correct' way to solve the problem?
3. was I right to make the displacement corresponding to the first spring as 'z-Ao' and the displacement regarding to the second spring as 'z-(2A-Ao) ' ?
 

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I'll be brief because I'm not very good with english (sorry). I'll consider just the left spring because you seem to have problem with that one only:

## F = -k(z-(2a-a_0)) = -k(x-x_0) ## with ##x = z## and ##x_0 = 2a-a_0##.

Since ##x-x_0 < 0 → F = +k(x_0-x) = +k((2a-a_0)-z) ## and you get the formula from the book

Hope it's clear

CGandC said:
isn't the sign on the second term suppost to be positive

Yes but only if you switch ##x## with ##x_0##, because the general formula is ##F=-k(x-x_0)##, but in this very case ##x-x_0<0## so you can change the sign
 
CGandC said:
isn't the sign on the second term suppost to be positive? [ because the right spring moves the mass to the right ]
The initial extension of the right spring is a-a0 to the left, so exerts a force K(a-a0) to the right.
To this is added a displacement (z-a) to the right, so adds a force K(z-a) to the left.
Summing, a force K(a-a0) -K(z-a) = K(2a-z-a0) to the right.
 
dRic2 said:
I'll be brief because I'm not very good with english (sorry). I'll consider just the left spring because you seem to have problem with that one only:

## F = -k(z-(2a-a_0)) = -k(x-x_0) ## with ##x = z## and ##x_0 = 2a-a_0##.

Since ##x-x_0 < 0 → F = +k(x_0-x) = +k((2a-a_0)-z) ## and you get the formula from the book

Hope it's clear
Yes but only if you switch ##x## with ##x_0##, because the general formula is ##F=-k(x-x_0)##, but in this very case ##x-x_0<0## so you can change the sign
haruspex said:
The initial extension of the right spring is a-a0 to the left, so exerts a force K(a-a0) to the right.
To this is added a displacement (z-a) to the right, so adds a force K(z-a) to the left.
Summing, a force K(a-a0) -K(z-a) = K(2a-z-a0) to the right.
So I thought about it, and I think the second term : ' -k(z-(2A-Ao) ) ' is negative because the right spring is compressed , this means a force to the right acts on this spring to compress it, and by Newtons third law, it exerts the same magnitude of force but to the negative 'z' direction on the mass , hence the force from this spring on the mass is 'Force on mass from right spring= -k(z-(2A-Ao) ) '
Would you say that my reasoning is correct?
 
CGandC said:
So I thought about it, and I think the second term : ' -k(z-(2A-Ao) ) ' is negative because the right spring is compressed , this means a force to the right acts on this spring to compress it, and by Newtons third law, it exerts the same magnitude of force but to the negative 'z' direction on the mass , hence the force from this spring on the mass is 'Force on mass from right spring= -k(z-(2A-Ao) ) '
Would you say that my reasoning is correct?
Looks ok.
 
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