On the issue of kids not pursuing engineering/science/math these days

[Andy Resnick]

I agree. I think there's two issues though - the number of non-scientists who take some mathematics and science (which is perhaps too low) and the number of people who try to become scientists (which is perhaps too high).

I actually do mathematics, so I'm a bit off-centre in this discussion, but we see this all the time in discussions on the numbers of students doing mathematics in Australia (where I'm from). People keep saying there aren't enough. I wonder where I went wrong, since I did study mathematics and don't really feel like I've got much of a place in Australia (or the rest of the world for that matter - sigh), at least not one using mathematics. If there aren't enough, shouldn't I be in demand? What aren't there enough for anyway?

But then I realized what they meant - they want aspiring economists, aspiring doctors, aspiring social workers and aspiring engineers and so forth to learn some mathematics. By itself, it doesn't qualify you for much, but people in these other professions can use mathematics and science, and citizens in general can perhaps make better voting/purchasing decisions if they understand science. So it's good to get people interested, but not too interested, in case they get addicted and all start trying to pursue research careers.

I completely agree with this sentiment- I think society is much better off, having a voting populace that understands the scientific method, and perhaps more to the point, understands that logical thought and objective reality are useful tools to solve problems.

 

[symbolipoint]

The members participating in this discussion have made some brilliant speculations regarding the apparent (or perceived) lesser frequency these days of kids taking interest in Math and Science. Two important general ways to increase likelihood of getting related jobs or better related jobs in Science, Math, or Engineering are to enroll in a concentration of other courses (possibly but not necessarily including double-majoring), and finding work experience before graduating. Further, participating in some kind of activity to maintain any kind of recent experience may be useful (because of some employers' prejudices).

Very frequently, as some latter posts express, Mathematics is mostly a TOOL for other fields.

 

[mordechai9]

I don't doubt that there's fewer students in science, engineering, etc. now compared to as many in the past. (Proportional to the current population, anyways).

First of all, some people claim that there are already too many people in science and engineering, academic jobs are already too competitive, etc. However, this is missing the point, because if there was more people in science/engineering, then there would be more positions, more funding and everything as a result. If 20% of our politicians were former scientists/engineers, for example, these areas would get a lot more funding, and there would be a lot more positions available.

Basically I think the problem is mainly educational/societal like other people have mentioned. The K-12 education system in the U.S. is a joke, basically. There's a lot of good teachers out there and it's not necessarily their fault. But school in the U.S. is like a daycare, with huge variation depending on neighborhood and location, lots of kids don't even learn how to read, let alone learn to become a scientist.

Societally, science and engineering are completely ignored, considering the value they impart on society. Everybody thinks math and science are so impossibly hard, you tell them you're a scientist and they say "Oh jeez I could never do that!" People don't understand science/engineering is very approachable if you just work at it over a long period of time, just like anything else. In America there isn't a lot of culture -period-, let alone cultural appreciation for something as esoteric and "drab" as science/math/engineering. Of course, it's not drab at all, but this is how it is misportrayed and interpreted. Back to the education system again.

The key fault of the educational system is it just doesn't convince anybody that anything is interesting. It's obsessed with fulfilling dictations given by the overlords in the chain of command, all down the line. There's very little motivational/inspirational type of activity. Most students don't take any "career" classes for their entire time in K-12. It's a miserable situation.

 

[djeitnstine]

, my core point still holds: that there is still more than enough youth interest in the sciences considering the availabilities in these fields.

Interesting, I suppose that explains the major vacuum of engineers in america at the moment. I hope this little article from forbes helps: http://www.forbes.com/2009/06/03/hard-jobs-fill-leadership-careers-employment.html written 06.03.09

A small quote:

For the second year in a row, engineer is the hardest job to fill in America.

Why are engineers so hard to find? "We have whole generations of people loving liberal arts, not going into science and math," says Larry Jacobson, executive director of the National Society of Professional Engineers. ...

Also, I'm sure your statement explains why such a large number of students drop out of my degree at my university (Aerospace Engineering)

 

[maverick_starstrider]

Interesting, I suppose that explains the major vacuum of engineers in america at the moment. I hope this little article from forbes helps: http://www.forbes.com/2009/06/03/hard-jobs-fill-leadership-careers-employment.html written 06.03.09

A small quote:

Also, I'm sure your statement explains why such a large number of students drop out of my degree at my university (Aerospace Engineering)

Yeesh, reading that article, the job titles are so broad that I find it difficult to think of jobs that AREN'T covered in that list. Engineers, Nurses, Constructions Workers, Skilled Trade, Sales Reps, etc. that doesn't leave a whole lot out.

 

[DukeofDuke]

Interesting, I suppose that explains the major vacuum of engineers in america at the moment. I hope this little article from forbes helps: http://www.forbes.com/2009/06/03/hard-jobs-fill-leadership-careers-employment.html written 06.03.09

Hey, malicious sarcasm isn't cool


Note that "physics professor" wasn't on that list. Maybe I'm wrong in this respect, but when I read "interests in the sciences" I assumed we were talking about interest in scientific research, not interest in applied sciences.

In that case I'd like to note that biology is usually a school's second or third most popular major after business/econ and psych.

 

[avant-garde]

^ do you think that's because a lot of pre-med students choose biology as their major? what do biologists do for a living?

 

[djeitnstine]

Hey, malicious sarcasm isn't cool

Im sorry I did not intend for it to come across so malicious. But I couldn't keep from pointing out the facts.

 

[DukeofDuke]

Im sorry I did not intend for it to come across so malicious. But I couldn't keep from pointing out the facts.

More sarcasm

Like I said before, I was referring to interest in physics more than I was interest in engineering. This is why all my comments referred specifically to the oversaturation of PhD's looking for academic positions, in comparison to the available positions. Spend a few hours on this forum, and the topic will inevitably come up...

 

[DukeofDuke]

^ do you think that's because a lot of pre-med students choose biology as their major? what do biologists do for a living?

I think biology is one of those "standard" majors you pick if you don't know what to do. And then there are the premeds too. Also, a lot of people around where I live go into biotech jobs, synthesizing biochemicals and such. Its actually a pretty big job presence around here (I live in the Research Triangle Park, the Raleigh/Durham/Chapel Hill area that has the most PhD's per unit area in the world).

 

[DukeofDuke]

I completely agree with this sentiment- I think society is much better off, having a voting populace that understands the scientific method, and perhaps more to the point, understands that logical thought and objective reality are useful tools to solve problems.

Priority number one: High school science classes MUST mention that a theory is not "just a theory." I somehow doubt the Republican Party would be able to use the religious right and more moderate elements of that faction as easily if they understood some basic scientific concepts. ID would be much less of an issue if people realized how much had to be done before something could be taught as "just a theory."

 

[djeitnstine]

More sarcasm

I think you misread my post. Anyhow, I give this interesting article from times which discusses the topic at hand as it applies to the general public

http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1912548,00.html

 

[rabbitweed]

I completely agree with this sentiment- I think society is much better off, having a voting populace that understands the scientific method, and perhaps more to the point, understands that logical thought and objective reality are useful tools to solve problems.

I think you really over estimate the intelligence of humanity as a whole.

I spent a few years between high school and university pretty much working any bottom of the barrel of the jobs I can get, and I find as a result my faith in humanity is much, much lower than all my student and academic peers. There are many people out there who have never really rubbed shoulders with the morons of society.

 

[avant-garde]

I'm afraid that it's just pure and simple economics. STEM careers require a lot of work, and while the pay isn't bad, you can probably do better elsewhere with less effort.

Yeah but... when people start to realize this, won't they all go in that direction? And then it will create a surplus in that field that requires "less effort," thus driving salaries down.

Haven't we seen this with law degrees? Soon it will happen to undergraduate business?

 

[ralilu]

i love that reply avant-garde

 

[DukeofDuke]

Yeah but... when people start to realize this, won't they all go in that direction? And then it will create a surplus in that field that requires "less effort," thus driving salaries down.

Haven't we seen this with law degrees? Soon it will happen to undergraduate business?

Not unless our system radically changes. Science is usually not short term profitable, in that gains are hard to measure and only happen over time. Modern economics demands quarterly bottom lines...so unless we have a systematic overhaul the big bucks probably won't go to the scientists in the room.

 

[chiro]

In australia we are trying to get more scientists and engineers by reducing the cost of the degree.

I've found when speaking to other people when they find out I'm doing math is that they say "Ohhh" and then they say something along the lines "Wow you must be smart".

It seems that a lot of people have bad experiences with learning math and although math does not equal science, a lot of scientific endeavours require math in order to think logically and move from idea to establishing a theory or conjecture or hypothesis.

Personally I think the only way this is going to change is to get skilled people in math (think uni professors and lecturers) to go to schools and teach kids not only what math is all about but why we do math. If people aren't interested then fine to each their own. But if they are interested but struggling then that is where someone skilled can step in correcting the mistakes and perceptions of that student.

Another thing I've found is that in general education is a thing whereby in most subjects students aren't actively engaged in learning, they are simply tested on how well they can memorize and slightly process what they are meant to know. I believe that people in general do not learn with a bunch of theorems shoved down their throat but learn through discovery.

Another thing with science is that there is the perception that one can't make sufficient amounts of money in that career. I would argue against this if the student had business acumen and learned to combine science with business and go where the money is. Many people have done this and come out very well in the end.

If we are to get more people into these areas we need to think about what the perceived incentives are. Money only goes so far. Recognition goes pretty far. People like recognition. People want to acknowledged and rewarded for doing something hard.

I think one thing with science and engineering is that people have to realize that they
can do more than just engineering or science after they complete that degree. You can tell people about MBA's advisory or consultant jobs, political jobs, development roles the list is endless. If students realized that degrees didn't confine their options then I think students would be more willing and open to undertaking these degrees. Thats just my opinion though.

 

[Sankaku]

I think you really over estimate the intelligence of humanity as a whole... (snip)

There are many people out there who have never really rubbed shoulders with the morons of society.

While I like to think of myself as an optimist, in my darker moments I have to agree with you. We still have to do our best to make sure non-science students leave school/university with a solid understanding of what science actually is. Our future depends on it. Without that understanding, people will continue to make incredibly destructive decisions - both at a personal and at a national level.

 

[avant-garde]

Not unless our system radically changes. Science is usually not short term profitable, in that gains are hard to measure and only happen over time. Modern economics demands quarterly bottom lines...so unless we have a systematic overhaul the big bucks probably won't go to the scientists in the room.

Yeah, but what about engineers/programmers who work in the corporate world?

 

[TMFKAN64]

Engineers in industry do well... but the "big bucks" are in management/marketing/sales. Which, to be honest, is probably where they should be. Companies need engineers to build a product. But it is *far* more important that they are able to sell this product for revenue.

Good marketing beats good engineering every single time.

 

[DukeofDuke]

Good marketing beats good engineering every single time.

At making money, yes, not at making better products.

 

[Tiger99]

Personally I think the only way this is going to change is to get skilled people in math (think uni professors and lecturers) to go to schools and teach kids not only what math is all about but why we do math. If people aren't interested then fine to each their own. But if they are interested but struggling then that is where someone skilled can step in correcting the mistakes and perceptions of that student.

You might be pleased to know that the CSIRO's launched a program to do just that: http://austmaths.wordpress.com/2009/08/15/mathematicians-in-schools/
Or maybe you already knew?

 

[Troponin]

My early years were a perfect storm for producing students that did not want to pursue math or science.
First is "no child left behind." I don't know what others take is on this, but in my experience it is more along the lines of "no child allowed to excel."
Classes are taught at the level of the average student...at the pace of the slowest students.

Add to that the fact that being smart is "lame."
It's "cool" to be good at sports. Being smart, especially in math and science is (in my experience) the exact opposite of cool.
It's not just the kids that perpetuate this. Even our math teachers would make jokes and innuendos about math being for "dorks."

It took me 29 years to finally "accept" math. I was so sure I hated it that I never let myself realize I love it.

Hell, even today, when my wife and I visit my parents and my Father asks me about "life," the second I mention Physics, Math, or studying, he says something along the lines of "I got to party with you!" or "That sounds like my kind of Saturday night. You must be a BLAST to hang out with."

I'd have to guess there are a lot of people my age out there who could/would have gone into math or science if some of the above things affected them a little bit different.

 

[bleedblue1234]

The problem with most students today is that most fields in most sciences (economics, physics, mathematics, biology, etc.) are so very specialized and require literally years and thousands and thousands of hours of effort to truly appreciate and do revolutionary work in the field.

I don't think there will be many Isaac Newtons or even Einsteins running around as we move well into the 21st century, just because even the smartest of minds can only accomplish so much, and much of what is quote "easy" to discover has been done so already.

Maybe with further advances in computer technology and a genetic engineering we can create far more intelligent humans, but as it stands right now to do truly revolutionary work in a field of science requires years of dedication for a cause most people see as fruitless or "whats the point?".

There are no more "renaissance" men... and with the death of many of the true "famous" scientists, so goes most peoples interest in science itself...

 

[Phyisab****]

Lack of attractive women.

 

[chiro]

You might be pleased to know that the CSIRO's launched a program to do just that: http://austmaths.wordpress.com/2009/08/15/mathematicians-in-schools/
Or maybe you already knew?

Hey there thanks for the heads up. Thats great news, a great initiative.

 

[TMFKAN64]

At making money, yes, not at making better products.

Well, of course. But we were talking about where the "big bucks" were... and unsurprisingly, they're with the people who bring in the money.

 

[Sankaku]

It's "cool" to be good at sports. Being smart, especially in math and science is (in my experience) the exact opposite of cool.

This is a significant problem. If you are lucky to go to an elite school, this kind of peer response is more rare, but for most of us it is a huge obstacle. I can only think that it is a defence reaction to feeling inadequate when someone you know is smarter than you (or works harder than you).

In schools, the teaching is only half the battle. The 'learning culture' is the other half. If kids are actively discouraged from learning by their peers, it almost doesn't matter what kind of excellent science teachers are in the schools. I am a firm believer in equal education for all, but stuff like this makes me realize why some parents send their kids to private schools.

It evens out by University to some degree, because students are paying for their own education (mostly) and have found their path by then (mostly). However, for many people the damage has already been done.

I think it isn't an issue of enough people going into the hard sciences. Rather it is an issue with non-scientists having a solid science background. If everyone who went through university had to have decent skills of rational scientific thought, we wouldn't see so many 'well educated' idiots making policy and business decisions that we all regret.

 

[Office_Shredder]

My early years were a perfect storm for producing students that did not want to pursue math or science.
First is "no child left behind." I don't know what others take is on this, but in my experience it is more along the lines of "no child allowed to excel."
Classes are taught at the level of the average student...at the pace of the slowest students

...

It took me 29 years to finally "accept" math. I was so sure I hated it that I never let myself realize I love it.

In all fairness, No Child Left Behind was passed way after you left your early years

 

[Troponin]

In all fairness, No Child Left Behind was passed way after you left your early years

Fair enough. I didn't really word it well anyway. My formative years were a perfect storm for "learning" that school was pointless.

The classes were still taught at the level of the average student at the pace of the slowest students. In a situation like that, it is very easy for the top students to lose interest unless they have someone to influence them against that.
Not that I was one of those top students...I wasn't.

I really just used the no child left behind so that I could say it should be called "no child allowed to excel."

Regardless, I come from a blue collar family in a blue collar town. My beliefs growing up were that sports were what was "important" about school. Math was lame, studying was for dorks, and you just had fun playing sports and partying until it was time to get a garbagety job and start a family.

I'm not blaming my upbringing for that, I just wish I had the maturity to realize how stupid that view is.

My high school Algebra teacher would make jokes about how we'd never need algebra in the "real world," but it shows colleges that you're willing to suffer through it anyway.

Like I said, my Father pokes fun at me for going back to school. If we're at a family gathering, as soon as the topic of me going back to school comes up...it turns into a mess of sarcastic comments like "you must be a RIOT to party with!"
Then I hear "what are you going to do with that math?"
"will you ever use that stuff"
"what so fun about adding numbers all day?"

I actually tried to tell my Mother that math isn't "really" about numbers...but she argued with me that I was wrong...I'm sure it's over-dramatized, but you read about Feynman's school years and you hear about his physics professor giving him an Advanced Calc book, or how his math teacher would give him and his buddy special problems to take home and try to work out. That would never have happened when I was in school. Hell, I think the physics professor would be punished for not making the student follow along with what he was supposed to be learning.
And if a kid were staying after hours with a teacher and becoming friendly...the teacher would be punished for giving that kid special treatment. I really don't want to sound like I'm whining about my school years. I loved school. I was captain of the football and baseball teams. I was a two time small college All-american in football. I had a great time in school. I just wish I let myself take a different view about education. As a kid I dreamed about being a scientist. I was certain I would be the first astronaut archaeologist who figured out how to travel faster than the speed of light. Unfortunately my experiences made it harder to maintain that view, and very easy to take the view I did. I sound like a major f'n cry baby...

 

[sportsstar469]

i know this may sound a bit...idk far fetched to some of you guys on this forum. but not everybody is a math/science expert, or has a passion to do any of that stuff. and yes not everyone wants to learn something hard because they are lazy. some people just can't do math no matter how much they try. i am a 19 year old college student..turning 20 in a week or two, and i am only i ncollege algebra/trig. we haven't even covered the trig yet, but i do not find the algebra portion easy like most of you guys here would. hell i struggle finding the range of a function from a formula.some people just arent good at math. would you guys rather have everyone puruse a science degree and have non competent individuals trying to perform scientific breakthroughs?

 

[Sankaku]

I agree that not everyone needs to go into the sciences.

some people just can't do math no matter how much they try.

I think there is a small minority of people who really have difficulty with math (like a math dyslexia). However, most people who think they are bad at math have just been robbed by their schooling at an earlier age. If you are having trouble with algebra at age 19, then there are 3 possibilities:

1) You really are bad at math: Unlikely, but possible.
2) You are a slow starter: In which case, if you have good teaching and motivation starting now, you could make up for lost time and do well.
3) You are just as capable at math as most of us, but have been confused by bad teaching and negative peer pressure (see troponin's post) and now feel out of your depth. Again, if you have good teaching and motivation starting now, you will catch up fine.

Option number 3 is very very common.

 

[symbolipoint]

Let me say something that will rile some nerves here: Students have better opportunity to learn Mathematics if they stay out of the common typical minimum Math courses in high school but attend only the college preparatory Math courses of Algebra 1, Geometry, Algebra 2, MathAnalysis/PreCalculus/Statistics/IntroCalculus. The material is more thorough and of better quality and motivation (what kind) is often clearer, and the material is taught often from teachers who have a deeper Mathematical background than from non-college prep. teachers.

I am NOT insisting that this is universally true. It is only a partly experienced impression.

 

[sportsstar469]

I agree that not everyone needs to go into the sciences.

I think there is a small minority of people who really have difficulty with math (like a math dyslexia). However, most people who think they are bad at math have just been robbed by their schooling at an earlier age. If you are having trouble with algebra at age 19, then there are 3 possibilities:

1) You really are bad at math: Unlikely, but possible.
2) You are a slow starter: In which case, if you have good teaching and motivation starting now, you could make up for lost time and do well.
3) You are just as capable at math as most of us, but have been confused by bad teaching and negative peer pressure (see troponin's post) and now feel out of your depth. Again, if you have good teaching and motivation starting now, you will catch up fine.

Option number 3 is very very common.

well if you don't mind id like to give you a little history on my math career(if youd like to call a 19-20 year olds school history that)
in 6th grade i was in the normal math class, apparently the teachers thought i was doing to well in that class and put me in the higher level math class. keep in mind there were kids who were place din the higher level math class FROM the beginning of the year based on 5th grade i guess. but never the less i was deemed ''smarter at math'' than my fellow average math classmates. at the end of 6th grade we took a math and english placement test. i placed into pre algebra for 7th grade which I am sure most of you know is the higher level math class. there's math and pre algebra. its here that my difficulties with math began. i got alike a 40-50 percent final grade in that class. i just couldn't keep up with the class's concepts. i then repeated pre algebra in 8th grade and passed it with a b?
i went onto algebra in 9th grade, and once agai nwas completely lost. i failed it. the counnselor decided to put me intop ''intermeidate'' algebra which is a class lower than algebra 1 for the start of my 10th grade year. i got kicked out of my high school during my tenth grade year. i won't go into that,but i got into a fight with a kid and that's wh y igot thrown out..theres more to the story but that is irrelevant. SO from my 10th grade to 12th grade i layed and rotted in alternative school. my mind was sitting with no stimulation.
i took intermeidate algebra agai nat alternative school, then cheated my way to an A in geometry..and never took any mroe math except for a ''checking'' class.
still got a high school diploma.
when i got to college itook the placement test and got like 99 on the english and reading part, s and like 90 on the arithmitic parts. i got a 40 on the algebra parts. i was palced i n an elementary algebra class which i aced. since i was behind i took an algebra 2/intro to right triangle trig course, in the 6 week summer session this past summer. i also got an A in that. now i am in college algebra /trig and i think there's some pre calc we go into at the end but I am not sure. I am not trying super hard, and i did get a 100 on the first quiz we had, but the last quiz we had i think i bombed(like a 70-80 if I am lucky). i haven't been doing the homework, but that's no excuse. algebra should come naturally to a college student. ALSO i got A'S in my other two math classes because iwould go for tutoring and extra teacher help EVERY DAY making sure to never fall behind. i had great math teachers so its not their fault. i also have a great math teacher this term, and i go to her for extra help after EVERY CLASS. i also go to the amth tutoring lab. however, if i don't understand a concept, it doesn't matter how many times the tutors explain it to me, as theyre talking nothing gets absorbed, and it just seeps through my head until every last ounce of substance saidd pusses outt he other side of my head.

well that's my situation, sorry for the long rant.

 

[Klockan3]

well that's my situation, sorry for the long rant.

So, what is the moral of the story? You didn't really make a point that fit the topic.