Phosphoric acid vs. Hydrochloric acid when removing rust and rerusting

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the chemical processes involved when using hydrochloric acid (HCl) and phosphoric acid (H3PO4) to remove rust from iron. Participants explore the differences in the formation of brown coatings after treatment with these acids, particularly focusing on the chemistry behind the reactions and the subsequent re-rusting phenomena.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants note that HCl reacts with rust (Fe2O3) to form FeCl3, which is water-soluble and can create a brown coating when exposed to air and water.
  • Others highlight that phosphoric acid reacts differently, forming FePO4, which does not exhibit the same immediate brown coating as FeCl3.
  • One participant explains that FeCl3 is deliquescent and absorbs moisture from the air, contributing to the formation of the brown coating over time.
  • Another participant questions the relevance of discussing the color of FeCl3 after washing, suggesting that the brown coating develops post-rinsing, indicating a different mechanism at play.
  • There is a discussion about the hydration of FeCl3 and the conditions necessary for the formation of its hydrated form, which is responsible for the observed color.
  • Some participants express skepticism about the initial claims, questioning whether HCl is truly anhydrous and the implications of the washing process.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the mechanisms behind the brown coating formation or the relevance of certain aspects of the chemistry involved. Multiple competing views remain regarding the roles of HCl and phosphoric acid in rust removal and re-rusting.

Contextual Notes

The discussion includes assumptions about the chemical behavior of the acids involved and the conditions under which the reactions occur. There are unresolved questions about the timing and nature of the brown coating formation.

Crushgear64
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Homework Statement



Why does a 12mol/L solution of HCl used to clean rust off iron get a brown coating after being exposed to air and washed with water, while the same concentration solution of phosphoric acid takes a day to have an apparent brown coating.

Homework Equations



Explain the similarities and differences in the chemistry of each acid when used to remove rust.

The Attempt at a Solution



6HCl+ Fe2O3 →2FeCl3 + 3H2O

2H3PO4 + Fe2O3 → 2FePO4 + 3H2O

Phosphoric is a weak acid? Lower concentration of hydrogen ions.
 
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Crushgear64 said:
Why does a 12mol/L solution of HCl used to clean rust off iron get a brown coating after being exposed to air and washed with water, while the same concentration solution of phosphoric acid takes a day to have an apparent brown coating.


Here is your hint...
 
Actually, FeCl3 is a water soluble salt, which is yellow in anhydrous state, but forms brown, acidic aqueous solution. It is also a deliquescent.

So when FeCl3 is formed, it absorbs water formed alongside itself, and from air and thus forming a brown coating.

Actually, the real chemistry behind this involves Co-ordination chemistry.
FeCl3 absorbs water to form its hydrated salt, FeCl3.6H2O; which is actually [Fe(H2O)4Cl2]Cl⋅2H2O.

This is like CuSO4.5H2O; which is actually [Cu(H2O)4]SO4.H2 in aqueous form. The [Cu(H2O)4]2+ complex ion is the reason the Copper Sulphate gets its blue colour.

Same here with [Fe(H2O)4Cl2]+ ion, which is brown.

The case of Ferric Phosphate is different. Firstly, it is also yellow salt, but is not a good deliquescent, which can form brown coating similarly to previous salt as quickly.
 
AGNuke said:
Actually, FeCl3 is a water soluble salt, which is yellow in anhydrous state, but forms brown, acidic aqueous solution. It is also a deliquescent.

So when FeCl3 is formed, it absorbs water formed alongside itself, and from air and thus forming a brown coating.

Actually, the real chemistry behind this involves Co-ordination chemistry.
FeCl3 absorbs water to form its hydrated salt, FeCl3.6H2O; which is actually [Fe(H2O)4Cl2]Cl⋅2H2O.

This is like CuSO4.5H2O; which is actually [Cu(H2O)4]SO4.H2 in aqueous form. The [Cu(H2O)4]2+ complex ion is the reason the Copper Sulphate gets its blue colour.

Same here with [Fe(H2O)4Cl2]+ ion, which is brown.

The case of Ferric Phosphate is different. Firstly, it is also yellow salt, but is not a good deliquescent, which can form brown coating similarly to previous salt as quickly.

While these are good points, I don't think this answers the OP's question. For example, why discuss the color of FeCl3 if it has been removed by washing? And the question suggests that the brown coating forms after rinsing so it isn't there initially but develops over time.
 
Hydrated FeCl3 is formed over time. See, the water from the reaction is not enough, so it tries to absorb it from the atmosphere, to a certain extent. However, to form full hydrated [Fe(H2O)4Cl2]Cl⋅2H2O, so that [Fe(H2O)4Cl2]+ can show its colour, we have to form its aqueous solution, which is formed only when we wash it with water.
 
So you think the HCl is anhydrous? And it's being washed in a solvent other than water?
The title of the thread indicates what is going on. It is re-rusting.
 

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