Pilot wave theory, fundamental forces

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Pilot wave theory posits that the only force acting on a particle is derived from the pilot wave, challenging conventional views that include classical forces like gravity and electromagnetism. Discussions highlight the need for references that specifically emphasize this formulation, as existing literature often includes both quantum and classical potentials. The theory is said to yield new, testable predictions, with suggestions to explore works by Mike Towler and A. Valentini for further insights. However, there is contention within the community regarding whether the quantum potential or the wave function is more fundamental, with various authors presenting differing viewpoints. Overall, the conversation underscores the complexity and ongoing debates within pilot wave theory.
  • #31
Seems interesting.

I will talk about making Bohmian nonlocal particle mechanics compatible with relativity and particle creation/destruction. It will be based on
http://au.arxiv.org/abs/0811.1905 [Int. J. Quantum Inf. 7 (2009) 595]
http://au.arxiv.org/abs/0904.2287 [to appear in Int. J. Mod. Phys. A]
but some new insights will also be presented.
 
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  • #32
Will there be a transcript of these talks made available online? Since my last little "tussle" regarding dBB I've felt the need to broaden my horizons and learn more about it. I'm still not buying it, but then, I find it somewhat hard to accept TCI as well.

@Zenith: Come now, the Salahis made it into the damned White House, just walk on stage and start talking. ;)
 
  • #33
Frame Dragger said:
I'm still not buying it
What would you emphasize as your main problem(s) with it?
 
  • #34
Demystifier said:
What would you emphasize as your main problem(s) with it?

Hmmm... Right now I don't know that I feel comfortable in my knowledge of dBB, and I'm a skeptical logical positivist with a phenomonological bent. My respect for dBB grows as I research it, but it still seems... arbitrary. I appreciate how much more... sense... it makes that wavefunction collapse, and it's much more appealing than, "shut up and calculate!".

Specifically however, the entire concept of the pilot wave seems terribly convenient. It's impressive that dBB survived Bell's theorem by going non-local when LHV theories died, so I'm not discounting it. I suppose that Zenith was right and in the end I'm more concerned with he utility of the theory than I am with the interpretation. She said, and I agree, that perception shapes thinking. I'm not sure that it matters in this case however. SQM has produced results that have produced further results, even if on its own it is a probabilistic and not necessarily accurate description of nature. Given that, until an Interpretation becomes necessary to explain events AND make progress, it seems that anyone is free to posit a view re QM.

Now, here is where I abondon all pretense of formality and tell you my final issue with the Pilot Wave theory. The Pilot Wave seems like the deterministic hand of god, vs the natural unpredictablity and unexplained depths of TCI. I don't know that anything beyond preference matters at this point, and given that I am leery of the seemingly intuitive theory (dBB).
 
  • #36
Demystifier said:
Concerning the arbitrariness, perhaps this thread
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=252491
might convince you that it is not so arbitrary as it looks at first sight.

That is fascinating, and is part of dBB's ability to outlive virtually every respectable theory. However, between the highly reductionist TCI, and dBB... TCI seems more in line with LESS "added" elements. Non-Local HV's, a purely theoretical pilot wave... it all makes for a theory that keeps up with TCI, but the one argument I haven't seen properly defended is just Occam's Razor. I read one defense of that one linked by Zenith, but while TCI is incredibly WEIRD, it doesn't make as many assumptions to stay deterministic.

I don't believe that TCI is a fully accurate description of quantum behaviour, or how it becomes macroscropic... however, the word of Interpretations is the world of metaphysics. I suppose dBB strikes me as slightly more contrived than TCI, and therefore less useful as a working theory.
 
  • #37
Frame Dragger said:
I suppose dBB strikes me as slightly more contrived than TCI, and therefore less useful as a working theory.

Yeah - TCI is massively useful. For example:

"From these arguments we must conclude that it is meaningless to assign to the free electron a magnetic moment" (c) Bohr, Heisenberg et al. (1928)

People were still telling Hans Dehmelt up to the 1980s to stop trying to measure it because Bohr had 'proved' using the Copenhagen interpretation that it couldn't be done. Today the magnetic moment of the electron is probably the best measured number in the whole of science and Dehmelt has got a very nice prize sitting on his mantelpiece.

Perception shapes thinking.
 
  • #38
zenith8 said:
Yeah - TCI is massively useful. For example:

"From these arguments we must conclude that it is meaningless to assign to the free electron a magnetic moment" (c) Bohr, Heisenberg et al. (1928)

People were still telling Hans Dehmelt up to the 1980s to stop trying to measure it because Bohr had 'proved' using the Copenhagen interpretation that it couldn't be done. Today the magnetic moment of the electron is probably the best measured number in the whole of science and Dehmelt has got a very nice prize sitting on his mantelpiece.

Perception shapes thinking.

True, but utility leads to progress, and as strange and unlikely as TCI is it has lead to progress. Let's face it however, it's issues just such as the ones you cite that have more and more people like me, listening to people like you. Once upon a time I would have had to burn you at the stake! ;)

I think I'll stay on the fence... with a tilt towards TCI. Not for the sake of rhetoric, but they both are so clearly incomplete that I'm happy to examine both ideas and keep them in mind when confronting cardinal issues of apparent QM behaviour.

Edit: To be fair, the magnetic moment of the electron was not a TYPICAL blunder by Bohr, although it was typically Bohr. TCI has a better record of producing results (whatever you attribute that to, teaching/student bias included) although it has its major problems. So does dBB... but dBB is just that little bit more... "complete". At this point, completion in the dBB Interpretation smacks of bias towards a more classicist and deterministc view. Not for everyone, but many. TCI is just... the math without apoligies or meaningful philosphophy... which probably makes it the least metaphysical, and therefore the most valuble.
 
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  • #39
Frame Dragger said:
True, but utility leads to progress, and as strange and unlikely as TCI is it has lead to progress.

You have no evidence whatsoever that more progress wouldn't have been made if people had believed deBB from the start. It's the same mathematics but a clearer conceptual picture, so I rather suspect there would have been.
Frame Dragger said:
Non-Local HV's, a purely theoretical pilot wave... it all makes for a theory that keeps up with TCI, but the one argument I haven't seen properly defended is just Occam's Razor. I read one defense of that one linked by Zenith, but while TCI is incredibly WEIRD, it doesn't make as many assumptions to stay deterministic..

.. I suppose dBB strikes me as slightly more contrived than TCI, and therefore less useful as a working theory.
(1) Occam: Just for the record, deBB adds no math that is not already there - everything follows from one semantic change in the meaning of the word 'probability'. It also eliminates the - to most people uncompelling - postulates about measurement (so it actually has fewer premises..). It gives a completely new interpretation of quantum phenomena in which e.g. probability plays no fundamental role. The descriptive content is identical but the theories are not equivalent at all. There is no basis to apply Occam here.

(2) You can't moan about the theory being non-local unless you yourself can explain entanglement in a better way. And you can't - we already discussed this. In fact, I seem to recall you said 'I believe in nonlocality'.

(3) As for being contrived - OK, let's work this through. For a start, you're confusing Copenhagen with instrumentalism/shut-up-and-calculate.

Let's start with the equations of quantum mechanics (the Schroedinger equation, say). Here are three typical choices:

* Instrumentalism: assume that we can never know what the mathematical objects in the theory represent (or that we don't care) and just look at the probabilities of experimental results. Perfectly reasonable if you just want to build stuff.

* deBB: assume that the mathematical objects in the theory correspond to things that actually exist. This is also perfectly reasonable if you want to build stuff (it's the same maths) but it makes completely clear what is happening in an individual quantum event and hence guides thinking.

* TCI: because we are in thrall to the latest 1920s philosophical fashion which we heard in a Danish pub assume that one of the two mathematical objects in the theory corresponds to something (God knows what?) that exists er.. only when humans look at it, and insist (with no evidence whatsoever) that nature must be fundamentally probabilistic. Allows you to build stuff but makes everyone who studies it utterly confused (witness the hordes of students posting here).

Now, if we asked a panel of independent witnesses to say which of those options is more contrived, what do you think they would say?
Not for everyone, but many. TCI is just... the math without apoligies or meaningful philosphophy... which probably makes it the least metaphysical, and therefore the most valuble.

But who says metaphysics is not useful? Take the guy in the https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=372423" who's going on about the momentum being imaginary in classically-forbidden regions. His whole argument (though he won't have noticed this because he will have been taught that philosophy is pointless) is based on the idea that an actual particle is tunneling through the barrier and that it has an actual momentum given by quantizing the expression 'mv'.

Now of course, if you do assume that particles exist (deBB) then an examination of the Schroedinger current tells you that their momentum is not given by the quantum equivalent of mv but by something else (because of the existence of the quantum force or particles being pushed around by the wave field). So the quantum-mechanical 'momentum' operator only gives the true momentum of a particle in the classical limit i.e. when the wave component is passive. Thus when you 'measure' the momentum in a quantum system, you are not in fact measuring anything at all. This is what people mean by 'contextuality'. So when people make physical arguments about 'the uncertainty in the momentum' they always talk as if they mean the actual uncertainty in the actual momentum of some particle even though, strictly speaking, \Delta p as defined by Heisenberg refers to one component of the stress tensor of the wave field.. (see Peter Holland's deBB textbook). Ho hum.

With hindsight we can now see how impractical, inhibiting ideas came to dominate and distort the entire development of quantum theory. The early quantum physicists attributed to nature a limitation we can now see was simply a deficiency of contemporary thought. [Holland, 1993]
 
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  • #40
zenith8 said:
You have no evidence whatsoever that more progress wouldn't have been made if people had believed deBB from the start. It's the same mathematics but a clearer conceptual picture, so I rather suspect there would have been.



(1) Occam: Just for the record, deBB adds no math that is not already there - everything follows from one semantic change in the meaning of the word 'probability'. It also eliminates the - to most people uncompelling - postulates about measurement (so it actually has fewer premises..). It gives a completely new interpretation of quantum phenomena in which e.g. probability plays no fundamental role. The descriptive content is identical but the theories are not equivalent at all. There is no basis to apply Occam here.

(2) You can't moan about the theory being non-local unless you yourself can explain entanglement in a better way. And you can't - we already discussed this. In fact, I seem to recall you said 'I believe in nonlocality'.

(3) As for being contrived - OK, let's work this through. For a start, you're confusing Copenhagen with instrumentalism/shut-up-and-calculate.

Let's start with the equations of quantum mechanics (the Schroedinger equation, say). Here are three typical choices:

* Instrumentalism: assume that we can never know what the mathematical objects in the theory represent (or that we don't care) and just look at the probabilities of experimental results. Perfectly reasonable if you just want to build stuff.

* deBB: assume that the mathematical objects in the theory correspond to things that actually exist. This is also perfectly reasonable if you want to build stuff (it's the same maths) but it makes completely clear what is happening in an individual quantum event and hence guides thinking.

* TCI: because we are in thrall to the latest 1920s philosophical fashion which we heard in a pub assume that one of the two mathematical objects in the theory corresponds to something (God knows what?) that exists er.. only when humans look at it, and insist (with no evidence whatsoever) that nature must be fundamentally probabilistic. Allows you to build stuff but makes everyone who studies it utterly confused (witness the hordes of students posting here).

Now, if we asked a panel of independent witnesses to say which of those options is more contrived, what do you think they would say?


But who says metaphysics is not useful? Take the guy in the https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=372423" who's going on about the momentum being imaginary in classically-forbidden regions. His whole argument (though he won't have noticed this because he thinks philosophy is pointless) is based on the idea that an actual particle is tunneling through the barrier and that it has an actual momentum given by quantizing the expression 'mv'.

Now of course, if you do assume that particles exist (deBB) then their momentum is not given by the quantum equivalent of mv but by something else (because of the existence of the quantum force or particles being pushed around by the wave field). So the quantum-mechanical 'momentum' operator only gives the true momentum of a particle in the classical limit i.e. when the wave component is passive. Thus when you 'measure' the momentum in a quantum system, you are not in fact measuring anything at all. This is what people mean by 'contextuality'. So when people make physical arguments about 'the uncertainty in the momentum' they always talk as if they mean the actual uncertainty in the actual momentum of some particle even though, strictly speaking, \Delta p refers to one component of the stress tensor of the wave field.. (see Peter Holland's deBB textbook). Ho hum.

With hindsight we can now see how impractical, inhibiting ideas came to dominate and distort the entire development of quantum theory. The early quantum physicists attributed to nature a limitation we can now see was simply a deficiency of contemporary thought. [Holland, 1993]

"...This allows you to build stuff." When it comes down to it, this is what matters right now. You see the formalism of TCI or Instrumentalism as restrictive, and the coherent explanation of dBB is freeing. I don't. I see the concrete, but unlikely conjectures (not the math, but the interpretation of what that means) made by dBB as supporting a more anthropic and comfortable view of physics. TCI essentially says that the math is an accurate description of the system, and therefore whatever the math says is true. Hence, dead-cat, live-cat, +observer in box with cat, etc...

Is it confusing? Yes. Does it seem likely? I don't know. You say things like, "Corrosponds to something (God knows what?)", but that shows a human fallacy. Why do you take your intuitive experience to be more reliable than the math which allows us to, as you say, "build stuff"? I suppose I'm Instrumentalist willing to work with TCI, or even dBB and MWI, but I don't buy any of them. I DO believe that there is a description beyond the utility of the math, but I don't think we're at the point of forming a coherent description.

Given that dBB is a coherent description of apparently QM behaviour in a manner that is not purely probabilistic, I suppose you could say that in my eyes that makes it wrong from the outset. Yes, dBB is a construction that CURRENTLY holds up, but it wouldn't take much experimental or observational evidenence for it to be brushed aside. In my view, dBB (as I've said before) is more of an "option" waiting in the wings if TCI and Instrumentalism stop panning out. The thing is... they haven't yet, and the margin by which dBB can rely on Pilot Waves and particles instead of a true duality is slim. The fact that TCI is also a shakey theory or borne of academia is purely tu quoque. If the situation were reversed, a person positing TCI could make the same argument about exlusionist practictices, etc. In essence, they are both worth considering, and then the terms cancel.

EDIT: What if the universe operates in such a way that we can only ever hope to come CLOSER to a meaningful Interpretation, but ultimately can only guess and "build stuff" (which from a philosphical POV and not a physics one, is not unlikely or unreasonable). In addition, I do believe you apply Occam's Razor to the CONCEPTS which are introduced to explain the math in dBB/QM. TCI just says that the math which clearly shows everything being a function of probabilities, is literally right. This may seem counterintuitive, or silly, but it introduces no unecessary concepts not mandated by the math. dBB introduces a Pilot Wave and (now) non-local hidden variables. To say that I must give a better explanation of non-locality (entanglement) is also tu quoque. My response is that it is a poorly understood phenomenon, not yet well explained by any existing interpreation, and therefore the Instrumentalist approach is best.

What is so wrong with accepting the conditional and fluid nature of theory and knowledge? If medicine progresses as expected, we may all live long lives; long enough to see more than one theoretical framework be born and die. Get too wedded to one at your own peril, which may be the best argument for practicality of all time.
 
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  • #41
Frame Dragger said:
argument I haven't seen properly defended is just Occam's Razor. I read one defense of that one linked by Zenith, but while TCI is incredibly WEIRD, it doesn't make as many assumptions to stay deterministic.
Occam razor is a vague argument, because the notion of "simplicity" is not well defined.
Anyway, if you accept the argument that purely probabilistic interpretation of QM is simpler than Bohmian QM, then, by the same argument, you should also accept that a purely probabilistic interpretation of CLASSICAL mechanics is simpler than the standard deterministic view of classical mechanics. For the details see
http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/quant-ph/0505143 [Found.Phys.Lett. 19 (2006) 553]
http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/0707.2319 [AIPConf.Proc.962:162-167,2007]
So, would you say that a purely probabilistic interpretation of classical mechanics is better or more convincing than the standard view of classical mechanics?
 
  • #42
zenith8 said:
But who says metaphysics is not useful? Take the guy in the https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=372423" who's going on about the momentum being imaginary in classically-forbidden regions. His whole argument (though he won't have noticed this because he will have been taught that philosophy is pointless) is based on the idea that an actual particle is tunneling through the barrier and that it has an actual momentum given by quantizing the expression 'mv'.

Hmm .. I guess you mean me. Interesting that you seem to think you know my (or anyone else's) opinions on philosophy without discussing them with me.

For the record, I definitely do not think philosophy is useless ... and I have no preference for either TCI or dBB (so far). I am a bit confused about why people seem to think one has to have a favorite. I have found it incredibly instructive to see how the different interpretations deal with different problems in Q.M. Perhaps my point of view will change as I learn more about dBB ...
 
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  • #43
Demystifier said:
Occam razor is a vague argument, because the notion of "simplicity" is not well defined.
Anyway, if you accept the argument that purely probabilistic interpretation of QM is simpler than Bohmian QM, then, by the same argument, you should also accept that a purely probabilistic interpretation of CLASSICAL mechanics is simpler than the standard deterministic view of classical mechanics. For the details see
http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/quant-ph/0505143 [Found.Phys.Lett. 19 (2006) 553]
http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/0707.2319 [AIPConf.Proc.962:162-167,2007]
So, would you say that a purely probabilistic interpretation of classical mechanics is better or more convincing than the standard view of classical mechanics?

That definitely seems like reductio ad absurdum to me... Classical mechanics was a stepping stone on the way to notions of relativity and probability. Simplicity is relative within a given system. That said, of course arguments can be made for both sides; that's why dBB is around when virtually all of its compatriots died in the great "Bell's Theorem Pogrom" ;) and subsequent 'cuts'.

Like SpectraCat, I don't HAVE to stick to one Interpretation in my daily life (a luxury, I realize), so I don't. If I had to choose, I've shown that I'm ultimately Instrumentalist/Phenomonologist/Skeptic. It's not the most comfortable state of mind, but it works for now.
 
  • #44
Frame Dragger said:
Like SpectraCat, I don't HAVE to stick to one Interpretation in my daily life (a luxury, I realize), so I don't. If I had to choose, I've shown that I'm ultimately Instrumentalist/Phenomonologist/Skeptic.

Indeed, you were a Copenhagenist this morning.
 
  • #45
zenith8 said:
Indeed, you were a Copenhagenist this morning.

Play nice now... It's not easy to find your way in the world of interpretations of quantum theory. I still consider myself essentially an adherent of TCI, however from a practical point of view I'm obviously flexible. Part of that flexiblity is that none of the existing interpretations are without their gaping holes, or assumptions. A Pilot Wave and hidden variables, or wavefunction collapse and entanglement... it's not really the greatest choice of all time. That said, as counterintuitive as it may be, TCI seems to require the fewest additional elements to work. If I were to be in any situation outside of a debate over interpretations, I would generally just leave it as metaphysics and move on.

Beyond that, I refer to my earlier posts on the subject, and would simply say that the best description for QM is the most effective at describing the system and making predictions. dBB seems more concerned with just keeping alfoat.
 
  • #46
Ok, it's clear I need to do some homework to keep up with these discussions. I am looking for a good text on Bohmian mechanics. Would anyone recommend the recent book by Durr and Teufel? Is there a better choice? I would appreciate recommendations by zenith, maaneli and demystifier, or anyone else who is an expert on the subject.
 
  • #47
SpectraCat said:
Ok, it's clear I need to do some homework to keep up with these discussions. I am looking for a good text on Bohmian mechanics. Would anyone recommend the recent book by Durr and Teufel? Is there a better choice? I would appreciate recommendations by zenith, maaneli and demystifier, or anyone else who is an expert on the subject.

I'll second that. Feel free to make it a big reading list.
 
  • #48
SpectraCat said:
Ok, it's clear I need to do some homework to keep up with these discussions. I am looking for a good text on Bohmian mechanics. Would anyone recommend the recent book by Durr and Teufel? Is there a better choice? I would appreciate recommendations by zenith, maaneli and demystifier, or anyone else who is an expert on the subject.

Even though it's modern, I find Duerr and Teufel's book pretty poor - too much of the wrong sort of mathematics - not enough physics. And there's something about the pompous tone of the book that makes you want to hit them.

Peter Holland's 1993 book 'The Quantum Theory of Motion' is an exhaustively detailed presentation of the whole theory - essentially recalculating every result in standard QM from this new perspective. If you don't mind the excessive detail, it's great for the non-relativistic stuff. It's less good for the relativistic stuff (which wasn't that well developed back then anyway but never mind). D+T don't touch the relativistic stuff at all.

There's a new book by Peter Rigg called "Quantum Causality" which is a really good little discussion monograph - I like it. He unfortunately tries to rename the theory as the 'Causal theory of quantum mechanics' so no-one will actually know what it's about from looking at the title.

You could also read Bohm + Hiley's 'The Undivided Universe' from the same year as Holland, but I wouldn't bother yet (they're too clever to bother with boring details, and they mix in far too much speculative nutter stuff to make it a good introductory textbook).

If you just want a decent summary, [PLAIN]http://www.tcm.phy.cam.ac.uk/~mdt26/pilot_waves.html" is good (there's also a 60+ slide popular lecture on the same site which I really like). Obviously he lacks the detail of a proper textbook but he manages to pack a surprising amount in (he doen't get very far into the relativistic theory either).

Antony Valentini is apparently writing a comprehensive textbook that should be out this year. This won't help you at the moment obviously but it will be the one to read, I'm sure. His recent historical study "Quantum Theory at the Crossroads: reconsidering the 1927 Solvay Conference" (2009) - also available online - was a revelation to me regarding the historical context.

A final decent option might be reading some of the review articles. There is a comprehensive list of Bohm/pilot-wave references with links on Towler's [PLAIN]http://www.tcm.phy.cam.ac.uk/~mdt26/pilot_waves.html" (Click 'Further Reading' in the right hand column).
 
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  • #49
zenith8 said:
Even though it's modern, I find Duerr and Teufel's book pretty poor - too much of the wrong sort of mathematics - not enough physics. And there's something about the pompous tone of the book that makes you want to hit them.

Peter Holland's 1993 book 'The Quantum Theory of Motion' is an exhaustively detailed presentation of the whole theory - essentially recalculating every result in standard QM from this new perspective. If you don't mind the excessive detail, it's great for the non-relativistic stuff. It's less good for the relativistic stuff (which wasn't that well developed back then anyway but never mind). D+T don't touch the relativistic stuff at all.

There's a new book by Peter Rigg called "Quantum Causality" which is a really good little discussion monograph - I like it. He unfortunately tries to rename the theory as the 'Causal theory of quantum mechanics' so no-one will actually know what it's about from looking at the title.

You could also read Bohm + Hiley's 'The Undivided Universe' from the same year as Holland, but I wouldn't bother yet (they're too clever to bother with boring details, and they mix in far too much speculative nutter stuff to make it a good introductory textbook).

If you just want a decent summary, [PLAIN]http://www.tcm.phy.cam.ac.uk/~mdt26/pilot_waves.html" is good (there's also a 60+ slide popular lecture on the same site which I really like). Obviously he lacks the detail of a proper textbook but he manages to pack a surprising amount in (he doen't get very far into the relativistic theory either).

Antony Valentini is apparently writing a comprehensive textbook that should be out this year. This won't help you at the moment obviously but it will be the one to read, I'm sure. His recent historical study "Quantum Theory at the Crossroads: reconsidering the 1927 Solvay Conference" (2009) - also available online - was a revelation to me regarding the historical context.

A final decent option might be reading some of the review articles. There is a comprehensive list of Bohm/pilot-wave references with links on Towler's [PLAIN]http://www.tcm.phy.cam.ac.uk/~mdt26/pilot_waves.html" (Click 'Further Reading' in the right hand column).

I agree with zenith's recommendations. And Towler's further reading list is in fact the most comprehensive archive on the subject available anywhere.
 
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  • #50
Thanks very mich Zenith, Maaneli.
 
  • #51
Here is my opinion about the books:

Duerr and Teufel - too mathematical for my taste

Bohm and Hiley - good, but slightly too philosophical for my taste

Riggs - also good, but slightly too philosophical for my taste

Holland - very physical, i.e., the best for my taste
 
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  • #52
Demystifier said:
Seems interesting.

I will talk about making Bohmian nonlocal particle mechanics compatible with relativity and particle creation/destruction. It will be based on
http://au.arxiv.org/abs/0811.1905 [Int. J. Quantum Inf. 7 (2009) 595]
http://au.arxiv.org/abs/0904.2287 [to appear in Int. J. Mod. Phys. A]
but some new insights will also be presented.

I've read the first paper before, and I liked it very much. But I still don't understand how you've managed to get around the need for a preferred frame or spacetime foliation, in your effort to construct a fundamentally Lorentz invariant deBB dynamics.
 
  • #53
Frame Dragger said:
That definitely seems like reductio ad absurdum to me...
Yes, that was the intention.

Frame Dragger said:
If I had to choose, I've shown that I'm ultimately Instrumentalist/Phenomonologist/Skeptic. It's not the most comfortable state of mind, but it works for now.
That is certainly a reasonable attitude too.
 
  • #54
Maaneli said:
I've read the first paper before, and I liked it very much. But I still don't understand how you've managed to get around the need for a preferred frame or spacetime foliation, in your effort to construct a fundamentally Lorentz invariant deBB dynamics.
Thanks for asking it. But before giving you an answer, I'll ask YOU a question. Do you see a need for any preferred foliation in Eqs. (17)-(19)?

The point is the following. Even though for each s there may exist a particular (s-dependent) Lorentz frame with respect to which the force between two particles is instantaneous, such a Lorentz frame is by no means special or ``preferred''. Instead, such a particular Lorentz frame is determined by covariant equations of motion supplemented by a particular choice of initial conditions X_a^{\mu}(0).

See also this thread:
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=354083
especially posts #1 and #109.

If you still have questions, I will be happy to answer them.
 
  • #55
Demystifier said:
Thanks for asking it. But before giving you an answer, I'll ask YOU a question. Do you see a need for any preferred foliation in Eqs. (17)-(19)?

The point is the following. Even though for each s there may exist a particular (s-dependent) Lorentz frame with respect to which the force between two particles is instantaneous, such a Lorentz frame is by no means special or ``preferred''. Instead, such a particular Lorentz frame is determined by covariant equations of motion supplemented by a particular choice of initial conditions X_a^{\mu}(0).

See also this thread:
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=354083
especially posts #1 and #109.

If you still have questions, I will be happy to answer them.

Thanks, I'll read those posts and get back to you ASAP.

Edit: I have read the posts, and reread the relevant sections of your paper, and I have comments and questions - but they will have to wait until (hopefully) tomorrow, on account of it being very late at night here in New York.
 
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  • #56
Thank you very much for the recommendations! I will buy Holland, and I will look at some of the review papers on Towler's list.
 
  • #57
SpectraCat said:
Thank you very much for the recommendations! I will buy Holland, and I will look at some of the review papers on Towler's list.
That's a good strategy IMHO. :approve:
 
  • #59
Maaneli said:
I've read the first paper before, and I liked it very much. But I still don't understand how you've managed to get around the need for a preferred frame or spacetime foliation.


it does not

http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/quant-ph/pdf/0607/0607124v1.pdf

Since the existence of a time foliation would be against the spirit of relativity, several attempts have been undertaken at obtaining a relativistic Bohm-like theory without a time foliation. I briefly describe four such proposals in this subsection, items (i)–(iv) below. However, (i)–(iii) are not satisfactory theories, and (i) and (iv) both involve some foliation-like structure, something just as much against the spirit of relativity as a time foliation.

(i) Synchronized trajectories [11, 21, 56]. Define a path s 7→ X(s) in (space-time)N as the integral curve of a vector field jψ on (space-time)N, with jψ a suitably defined current vector field obtained from a wave function ψ on (space-time)N. The path
X(s) =(X1(s), . . . ,XN(s)) defines N paths in space-time, parametrized by a joint parameter s, which are supposed to be the particle world lines. This approach is based on a naive replacement of space with space-time. Apparently, it does not possesses any equivariant measure, and thus does not predict any probabilities.
Moreover, it does introduce a foliation-like structure: The joint parametrization defines a synchronization between different world lines, as it defines which point on one world line is simultaneous to a given (spacelike separated) point on a second world line. Indeed, the synchronization is encoded in the world lines since, if N non-synchronous points X1(s1), . . . ,XN(sN) on the N world lines are chosen, then the integral curve s → Y (s) of jψ starting from Y (0) =(X1(s1), . . . ,XN(sN)) will generically lead to different world lines than X.

11.-Berndl, K., Durr, D., Goldstein, S., Zangh`ı, N.: Nonlocality, Lorentz invariance, and Bohmian quantum theory. Phys. Rev.A 53: 2062–2073(1996).
21.-Dewdney, C., Horton, G.: A Non-Local, Lorentz-Invariant, Hidden-Variable Interpretation of Relativistic Quantum Mechanics Based on Particle Trajectories. J. Phys. A: Math. Gen. 34: 9871–9878 (2001).
56.-Nikolic, H.: Relativistic Quantum Mechanics and the Bohmian Interpretation. Foundations of Physics Letters 18: 549–561 (2005).










Foliation independent:

http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/quant-ph/pdf/0607/0607124v1.pdf

The GRW theory can be made relativistic, without a time foliation or any similar structure, when using the flash ontology [72] [74].


The foliation independence of the model can be expressed in the following way: With every spacelike 3-surface epsilon in the future of epsilon 0 there is associated a wave function ψ epsilon on epsilonN , the conditional wave function, which depends on all flashes between epsilon0 and epsilon, as well as on the seed flashes before epsilon0 and, of course, on the initial wave function. (Indeed,the conditional wave function collapses at every flash.)


.-72 Tumulka, R.: A Relativistic Version of the Ghirardi–Rimini–Weber Model. To appear in J. Statist. Phys. (2006).
.-74 Tumulka, R.: Collapse and Relativity.On the Present Status of Quantum Mechanics, AIP Conference Proceedings 844, 340–352. American Institute of Physics (2006).
 
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  • #60
Maaneli

You clearly have a strong grasp of the pilot wave theory, can you explain your understanding to a waitress? I'm concerned about time in the quantum world, not gravity. Gravity in quantum terms, if you forget the standard model that will be proven accurate but hugely misinterpreted eventually, can be easily described in quantum-relavatistic terms that are equivalent to recent experiments where blobs of oil find their way around a maze. Mass creates a potential difference in the background fabric. The mechanism is beyond current theories, but it's most certainly not any Higgs particle that imparts mass to itself. Until we accept that the background fabric is more than minowski spacetime, and that our post-enlightenment view is a barrier in terms of understanding that our physics is looking at a holographic plate from the perspective of both the surface image and the projected image, we will hide under Bohr's clever arguments. We need to connect the holographic principle with non locality in QM. We need to really understand the inside out view we have of reality where relativity says that there is no such thing as time for photons and electrons.

We think of relativity as the enemy of QM. In reality, Einstein gave us a theory that was ahead of it's time.
 
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