Possibility of a Conscious Universe: Proving Life and Awareness

  • Thread starter Thread starter M. Gaspar
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Life Universe
Click For Summary
The discussion centers on whether the universe can be considered conscious or alive, with participants debating the definitions of life and consciousness. Some argue that if humans are conscious and part of the universe, then the universe must also possess some form of consciousness. Others contend that consciousness and life should be reserved for living organisms, emphasizing that the universe is a collection of matter that cannot be classified as alive or dead. The conversation also touches on concepts like Quantum Decoherence and the relationship between order and disorder in the universe, suggesting that while the universe exhibits both coherence and chaos, it cannot be deemed conscious without a clear definition of awareness. Ultimately, the debate reflects the complexity of defining consciousness and life in relation to the universe as a whole.
  • #31
Originally posted by M. Gaspar
Is the Universe conscious? Is It a living Entity? How might one set about "proving" It's "alive" and "conscious"?

To answer such questions, you must first find what the definition of life is. What makes something alive. It is unidefined...personally, I think the universe is alive since it does have chemical reactions.
 
Space news on Phys.org
  • #32


Originally posted by M. Gaspar
IACCHUS:

You've managed to lump a few things together in an attempt to discredit the speculation that there's a thread of consciousness that runs through everything... so that the Universe is nicely "hooked up".

Do we have dreams that tap in? Maybe.

Is there a spiritual aspect to the Universe? Possibly.

Are archetypes a way of talking about similar "things" and, like any other "model", not exactly "real"? Probably so.

Do these things constitute a "realm" that includes -- NOT the Collective UNconscious (though there might be that,too) but the Collective CONSCIOUSNESS -- or network of thought -- that may or may not exist as part of the Universe.
Deride? No. I only say "unconscious" in the sense that most of us can't tap into it directly (and speak with it), other than that I don't see why it can't be one and the same ... In fact it makes a great deal of sense.

Originally posted by Iacchus32
I have the will to live! ... Yes, but where did that will come from? ... Out of non-existence?
Perhaps you construed my original comment as derisive? Which in effect probably was, but only in the sense that it's rather obvious and I don't need to look any further than myself. And yet the derisive part would have been directed more towards those who would have you believe otherwise (that the Universe wasn't conscious).
 
  • #33
What do grubs know?

Thus as you say, there's a thread of conciousness which runs through everything, I thought I would bring up my piece about grubs here, which refers to the one silken thread, "wisdom," by which one begins to "tap in" so to speak.

From the previous (PF 2.0) thread, What do grubs know? ...

Originally posted by Iacchus32

What do grubs know, except perhaps intuitively, what it's like to be a butterfly?

Could it be this is a reflection of our own condition, where we too are earthbound and in need of a "grubstake," as we look around with ravenous appetites and devour everything in sight?

It all seems kind of narrow-minded dosen't it? But then what does a grub know? Not much beyond being a grub I suppose ... but, there will come a time ...

We go to the ends of the universe to discover the truth, with a slew of fancy instruments and calculations and "God" knows what else? (and only he can) but, when you get right down to it, what do we really know beyond what a grub knows, as we "grub" around in the dark?

But, there will come a time in the life of the grub when he says enough is enough, I've had it, leave me alone, I would just like to lay down for awhile.

You see I've stripped the "Tree of Knowledge" bare, and now that I'm full (of myself?), what's the point? Where's the silken thread (wisdom) to this big walking sack of knowledge? I need some time to reflect.

Ahh, what's that you say? Something's coming out my rear end? What? I have everything back to front? Could it be? Yes, there it is! ... the thread ... and, what does the thread say? 1 + 1 = 2. Wow! even a little child could understand that! ... and therein lies the answer.

Perhaps what we need is to take some time out from our "worldliness" and reflect on why 1 + 1 = 2? For if in fact you can see this for yourself, without someone else to say it was so, then why isn't it possible to acknowledge the existence of God? Once again, if you were to ask little children about this (if God existed), most would probably relpy, "Yes."

And from the "one mind" we fallen, to accept "the two," and hence the "knowledge of opposites." 1 + 1 = 2.
 
  • #34
Don't feel so bad...

...this, too, shall pass...

...like the thread you have managed to EXpell, but no DISpell.


It seems there are many camps:

In MY camp, the UNIVERSE is a living, conscious Entity that's responsive to all of its parts -- not "created BY" an "outside force" called "God" -- but an Eternal Entity of Energy that goes on and on (much like WE do!).

In YOUR camp, "God" is an all-knowing, all-powerful "Creator of the Universe" who is made evident by "His" works.

In OTHER camps, "God" is NOT so evident and must be SOUGHT.

In STILL OTHER camps, "God" must be "proven" mathematically.

There's ALSO a camp that proclaims "God" is "His" own "SON"...a hat trick I will never understand.

Then there's ANOTHER camp that calls "God" another name and believes "He" has asked them to fly airplanes into buildings. (...which is not to deride the LARGER camp that bellieves "the Struggle" is within OURSELVES).

I could go on...and WILL:

What might a grub "know"? What might a proton "know"? What might we "know"? What might "God" "know"? What might the Universe "know".

Perhaps, that it is what it is. I DON'T "know". I speculate.

There are a few games in town. One is speculation. Another is "proving" via testing (or mathematics). Another might be having your "answers" delivered!

Not satisfied with the last, and not capable of the middle, I engage in the first game at FULL TILT!

Rest awhile, IACCHUS, and return refreshed to the game...cause I think we're on the same field...but DIFFERENT CAMPS!
 
  • #35
Originally posted by M. Gaspar
...this, too, shall pass...

...like the thread you have managed to EXpell, but no DISpell.


It seems there are many camps:

In MY camp, the UNIVERSE is a living, conscious Entity that's responsive to all of its parts -- not "created BY" an "outside force" called "God" -- but an Eternal Entity of Energy that goes on and on (much like WE do!).

In YOUR camp, "God" is an all-knowing, all-powerful "Creator of the Universe" who is made evident by "His" works.

In OTHER camps, "God" is NOT so evident and must be SOUGHT.

In STILL OTHER camps, "God" must be "proven" mathematically.

There's ALSO a camp that proclaims "God" is "His" own "SON"...a hat trick I will never understand.

Then there's ANOTHER camp that calls "God" another name and believes "He" has asked them to fly airplanes into buildings. (...which is not to deride the LARGER camp that bellieves "the Struggle" is within OURSELVES).
I subscribe to all of the above, even the last, because I can't say I've never been without delusion. Hmm... I wonder if this is what wuliheron means by acceptance?

Actually you're right in that I do need to get some rest, Thanks!
 
  • #36


Originally posted by MajinVegeta
To answer such questions, you must first find what the definition of life is. What makes something alive. It is unidefined...personally, I think the universe is alive since it does have chemical reactions.

But fire is a chemical reaction, and it isn't alive.
 
  • #37
Mentat...

Or maybe it IS.
 
  • #38


Originally posted by Mentat
But fire is a chemical reaction, and it isn't alive.
And yet it seems to be giving off "the essence" of something. Even if derived from an "inanimate form."
 
  • #39
Originally posted by M. Gaspar
What might a grub "know"? What might a proton "know"? What might we "know"? What might "God" "know"? What might the Universe "know".

Perhaps, that it is what it is. I DON'T "know". I speculate.
But we all know that grubs turn into butterflies, and that in fact there is an afterlife, at least for grubs anyway.
 
  • #40
IACCHUS

When big stars "die"...isn't it odd that their "corpse" has a powerful, attractive force that STILL effects its neighborhood, if not the Universe?
 
  • #41
Originally posted by M. Gaspar
When big stars "die"...isn't it odd that their "corpse" has a powerful, attractive force that STILL effects its neighborhood, if not the Universe?
Oh, do you mean like Elvis? Or perhaps Lenin? And oh yeah, "Jesus Christ Superstar!" Hey, if I didn't know your cosmological bent (not that I'm really up on cosmology), I would say you're talking about people here. And yet that's not the way I took it. Even so there's something peculiar about it either way now isn't there?

I take it you're referring to things like red giants, white dwarfs, black holes, etc., Right? While I guess you would be talking about their "gravity fields."
 
  • #42
Yes...

I'm talking about their gavitational fields...an odd "echo" for something considered "dead".

May I not speak figuratively in a PHYSICS Forum?

More later...gotta get some GRUB (before it turns into a butterfly and I have to chase it around the room to eat it).
 
  • #43
Originally posted by Iacchus32
But we all know that grubs turn into butterflies, and that in fact there is an afterlife, at least for grubs anyway.

How is this proof of any afterlife? No offense, but were you serious here?
 
  • #44
Originally posted by Mentat
How is this proof of any afterlife? No offense, but were you serious here?

I think he was serious bout that, an afterlife for grubs.
And we can be serious of afterlifes for embryoos, babies, and infants too!
 
  • #45
Originally posted by heusdens
I think he was serious bout that, an afterlife for grubs.
And we can be serious of afterlifes for embryoos, babies, and infants too!

Look at the word "afterlife", and tell me you don't see a compound word. It is obviously composed of the words, "after" and "life". Unless the grub dies, before becoming a butterfly (which it doesn't), the butterfly is not an afterlife of the grub.
 
  • #46
Originally posted by Mentat
Look at the word "afterlife", and tell me you don't see a compound word. It is obviously composed of the words, "after" and "life". Unless the grub dies, before becoming a butterfly (which it doesn't), the butterfly is not an afterlife of the grub.
Use your imagination!

And yet there will come a time in the life of the grub when an amazing transformation takes place, and through this one silken thread (wisdom) he spins his little cocoon and prepares for a very long deep sleep (death). And yet he finally awakens, only to discover that he's a new creature, and that indeed, there is an afterlife! Well at least for grubs anyway.

Isn't it a marvel that a grub can do this? Whose to say it isn't any different for human beings? Mother Nature has many mysteries to teach us which, after all, is what gave rise to science isn't it?
 
  • #47
And who's to say, Iacchus...

...that it's not the same for the UNIVERSE...a series of INFINITE INCARNATIONS from "Big Bang" to "Big Crunch" to next "Big Bang". [?] [?] [?] [?] [?]
 
  • #48
Isn't it a marvel that a grub can do this? Whose to say it isn't any different for human beings?
Yes it is indeed a marvel. Unfortunately the cocoons which people do their transformations in are often spun from yarn and used to lace the inside pine boxes.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #49
Originally posted by M. Gaspar
...that it's not the same for the UNIVERSE...a series of INFINITE INCARNATIONS from "Big Bang" to "Big Crunch" to next "Big Bang". [?] [?] [?] [?] [?]
I'm afraid the only real reference point I have is myself (consciously). And besides not being up on comsmology, I'm not really sure I can speak about the Universe as whole. Although I do believe it's conscious, because consciousness emanates from God (i.e., the one being the cause and the other being the effect).
 
Last edited:
  • #50
Originally posted by BoulderHead
Yes it is indeed a marvel. Unfortunately the cocoons which people do their transformations in are often spun from yarn and used to lace the inside pine boxes.
Yes, but where does this complex energy pattern (or field) which is so attached to our body, what we would call "our essence" (or soul), go when we die? Even something as inanimate as a piece of (dead) wood has to burn before it gives off its essence. But with something which is alive, like us, we expire just like that. Does our consciousness just evaporate into thin air? Of course you could cremate the "dead corpse" any time afterwards, but that would be comparable to burning a piece of dead wood? I mean what gives?

Besides, where do we go when we dream?
 
  • #51
...Does our consciousness just evaporate into thin air?
It might simply fade away after a few moments.
...I mean what gives?
I'd like to simply say that I'm Dying to find out.:smile:
 
  • #52
Originally posted by Iacchus32
Originally posted by M. Gaspar
...that it's not the same for the UNIVERSE...a series of INFINITE INCARNATIONS from "Big Bang" to "Big Crunch" to next "Big Bang". [?] [?] [?] [?] [?]
I'm afraid the only real reference point I have is myself (consciously). And besides not being up on comsmology, I'm not really sure I can speak about the Universe as whole. Although I do believe it's conscious, because consciousness emanates from God (i.e., the one being the cause and the other being the effect).
And what criteria are you using? Are saying the "Big Bang" has occurred more than once? And what do you mean by "Big Crunch?" Or, are these just reverberations of the "original event?" Whereas I'm afraid if the Universe is going to collapse, and blast apart all over again, it won't be happening anytime soon, and I won't be here to witness it.

Of course I do believe the Universe is constantly tearing itself to pieces and constantly re-assimilating itself due to "the clash" between Good and Evil. Which is why we all experience "pleasure and pain."
 
  • #53
Originally posted by Iacchus32
Use your imagination!

And yet there will come a time in the life of the grub when an amazing transformation takes place, and through this one silken thread (wisdom) he spins his little cocoon and prepares for a very long deep sleep (death). And yet he finally awakens, only to discover that he's a new creature, and that indeed, there is an afterlife! Well at least for grubs anyway.

Isn't it a marvel that a grub can do this? Whose to say it isn't any different for human beings? Mother Nature has many mysteries to teach us which, after all, is what gave rise to science isn't it?

The actual grub is not dead, when it is in it's cocoon.

The symbolic grub can do whatever you want it to, provided you add some meaning to it, after having given the illustration.
 
  • #54
Yes, Iacchus..

I'm saying the Universe is an Entity that has INFINITE INCARNATIONS...from "Big Bang" through EXPANSION through CONTRACTION to "Big Crunch" then another "Big Bang", etc


Or, let me put it another way...


[?] [?] [?] [?] ...if you get my drift.
 
  • #55


Originally posted by M. Gaspar
I'm saying the Universe is an Entity that has INFINITE INCARNATIONS...from "Big Bang" through EXPANSION through CONTRACTION to "Big Crunch" then another "Big Bang", etc


Or, let me put it another way...


[?] [?] [?] [?] ...if you get my drift.
Oh, do you mean the rhythm of the Universe? As in frequency? I understand its number is "432" ...

Of course I have my own ideas about the Big Bang theory, but that would imply God had a mistress, and that the Universe was conceived in "the moment."
 
  • #56
good grub

Mentat's point suggest to me the grub just stayed alive not zooming to afterlife although the question still lives. It is like Plato's allegory of livin in a cave one's whole life, the sounds outside may seem like God's and the outside does exist even if the ones inside the cave don't realize it.
By the way, for the sake of humor, my sister used to be a butterfly, but now she is a grub.
Sad but true, www.surrealcity.com and well a teacher once said about the afterlife, He will wait until he dies to find out. And we deserve a definitive answer, don't we? Geez, maybe I don't. Bye for now, Gilnv.
 
  • #57
Originally posted by Mentat
The actual grub is not dead, when it is in it's cocoon.
But that's the whole point, if there is an afterlife for us humans, then technically we're not dead either when we rise out of our dead corpses, or coffins, or cocoons or whatever. All of which is reflected in the following:

"But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.[/color] And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine." (Matthew 22:31-33)

Originally posted by Mentat
The symbolic grub can do whatever you want it to, provided you add some meaning to it, after having given the illustration.
Did you read the piece https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=830&perpage=15&pagenumber=3" above? I think the illustration and the meaning suites the symbolism just fine. Although I think you're suggesting I just come right out and say, Hey everybody, there's an afterlife! Now how far do you think that would go? At least this way I probably got you to think about it ...
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #58


Originally posted by nevagil
Mentat's point suggest to me the grub just stayed alive not zooming to afterlife although the question still lives. It is like Plato's allegory of livin in a cave one's whole life, the sounds outside may seem like God's and the outside does exist even if the ones inside the cave don't realize it.
Am not sure what you're saying? Are you saying Mentat is not acknowledging that the grub undergoes a "transformation" into an entirely different state? And that it "truly transcends" (meaning, to rise above) its previous state? If so, then I agree, otherwise you'll have to make yourself more clear.
 
  • #59
maybe grubs &

I thought Mentat meant the grub doesn't go to afterlife because it doesn't die, just transforms. I think Iacchus32 considers the transformation an afterlife or at least a good symbolic example of an afterlife. So it has me thinking that I've hoped that if there is an afterlife that we would be keeping our same consciousness, and not do such a transformation that I don't recall being human. I guess I'm questioning the definition of afterlife. Emotionally I wanta keep my consciousness. Many things like the universe don't seem conscious with choice or emotion. The universe seems like a hybred fruit tree that is living, reacting and could be split into two living parts or have half of it mixed with another universe for a hybred but it doesn't seem conscious or capable of reproduction. Although maybe us humans are the conscious part of it, like maybe we are its brain. Maybe humans someday will control the universe enough so that it can reproduce with our help.Then in that line of thinking maybe the universe is conscious a little. Maybe that's what that term collective consciousness or universe meant, I just glanced over that area.
Enjoy the spring, bye for now.
 
  • #60
Originally posted by Iacchus32
But that's the whole point, if there is an afterlife for us humans, then technically we're not dead either when we rise out of our dead corpses, or coffins, or cocoons or whatever. All of which is reflected in the following:

"But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.[/color] And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine." (Matthew 22:31-33)

Exactly, and if one doesn't die, then there can be no period that is "after life". There may be a resurrection (my opinion on that is irrelevant, and that is a Religious issue anyway), but that doesn't mean that the grub needs to be "resurrected" from it's transforming state (within the cocoon). It doesn't need to be resurrected because it's not dead.

Did you read the piece https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=830&perpage=15&pagenumber=3" above? I think the illustration and the meaning suites the symbolism just fine. Although I think you're suggesting I just come right out and say, Hey everybody, there's an afterlife! Now how far do you think that would go? At least this way I probably got you to think about it ...

This issue is entirely religious, and has no place in the Philosophy Forum. I mean no offense to you at all. It's just that the reason I don't post in the Religion Forum is that I made an agreement with someone that I wouldn't discuss Religious isssues, on the PFs. The person I made the agreement with doesn't mind that sometimes the topics get religious, and I keep resonding, so long as the mentors move it quickly, and I don't respond to it, once it's in the Religion Forum.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Similar threads

B What is Consciousness? How does it affect our Physical Universe?
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
2K
I Can the multiverse hypothesis be an explanation for life on Earth?
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
2K
B Big Bang and Infinite Universe
  • · Replies 20 ·
Replies
20
Views
1K
Is it possible to shift between parallel universes?
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
2K
I Probability, observers and the multiverse
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
I Is the CPT-Symmetric Universe Theory the Key to Solving the Antimatter Mystery?
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
I 3 questions about a paper on density fluctuations in the Universe
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
B Looking to get a better understanding of bubble universe formation
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
752
AI Consciousness?
  • · Replies 13 ·
Replies
13
Views
2K
I What proof do we have that the universe is homogenous?
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
2K