Practical measurements of rotation in the Kerr metric

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The discussion centers on the complexities of measuring rotation in the context of the Kerr metric, particularly through the use of gyroscopes and Sagnac rings. It highlights that a stationary Sagnac ring in the gravitational field of a rotating black hole will indicate rotation due to the Sagnac effect, while gyroscopes mounted on the ring may show different results depending on their local reference frame. The conversation also explores the conditions under which these devices indicate zero rotation, emphasizing that the criteria for both are equivalent in Kerr spacetime. Additionally, it notes that no stable circular orbits exist outside the event horizon of a Kerr black hole, except at a critical radius. The complexities of frame-dragging and the relationship between local and distant references are crucial in understanding these measurements.
  • #61
WannabeNewton said:
Sorry for the long post but I just wanted to make sure that I myself understood what you were trying to describe in the first place. Cheers.
I think you interpreted what I was getting at correctly.
PeterDonis said:
So the worldline of the rotating observer with his gyro will look like a very, very stretched out helix, whose tangent vectors are almost vertical: and adding the very, very small angular momentum to the BH will only need to change the behavior of the gyroscope by a very, very small amount to switch it from the right hand sketch behavior to the left hand sketch behavior.
After giving WBN's post some thought, I came to a similar conclusion that the time factor and the slow rotation involved makes the apparent 'step change' in the behaviour of the gyroscopes after a small perturbation, less dramatic, so I will concede I have no strong counter arguments to WBN's position in post #53.

Back to the question of azimuthal acceleration or lack of. On page 66 of this book, equation (3.3.37) states that the azimuthal acceleration is zero, but this is from the point of view of a ZAMO observer, so this is to be expected. I am still unable to see pages 62 and 63 of the same book, that gives the acceleration according to a static local observer with ##(d\phi=d\theta=dr=0)## in the Kerr metric. Any chance of someone forwarding those 2 pages to me?
 
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  • #63
Peter, you might be interested in sections 5 and 6 of this paper: http://arxiv.org/pdf/0708.0170v1.pdf

It initially states exactly what Sachs and Wu state i.e. that observers belonging to a time-like congruence ##\xi^{\mu}## can (locally) synchronize their clocks using radar if and only if ##\xi^{[\gamma}\nabla^{\mu}\xi^{\nu]} = 0## but uses notation that both you and I are well accustomed to; note however the caveat that the clocks must be infinitesimally separated (top of p.17).

After that it introduces Proposition 4 (also p.17) which in some sense generalizes the radar synchronization method above to clocks that are not infinitesimally separated but close enough so that radar can be utilized. The added restriction is that now ##\xi^{\mu}## has to satisfy both ##\xi^{[\gamma}\nabla^{\mu}\xi^{\nu]} = 0## and ##\nabla^{(\mu}\xi^{\nu)} = 0## i.e. it must be both irrotational and rigid.
 
  • #64
WannabeNewton said:

Thanks WBN! I appreciate you taking the time to upload the pages.:smile: It seems we are still stuck with the paradox Peter mentioned earlier. Why does the coordinate angular velocity of the free falling particle in the equatorial plane, increase if there is no angular acceleration due to gravity?

I think I may have to resort back to the idea of the connection between spin angular momentum and orbital angular momentum that I mentioned earlier. Normally these quantities are conserved separately. Spin angular momentum of the particle is conserved if there are no external torques acting on it, but there is an external torque acting on the particle, altering its intrinsic spin in the Kerr metric (if its orbital velocity is not that of a ZAMO), so the particle can not be considered as an isolated system. A particle with initial zero spin and zero orbital velocity in the Kerr metric, will generally have its spin increased and to conserve total angular momentum the orbital velocity has to increase in the opposite direction to conserve a total angular momentum of zero. Basically, in the Kerr metric, there appears to be spin-orbit coupling and these quantities are not individually conserved.

Normally spin-orbit coupling is associated with atoms and electrons but it can apply in large systems. Consider a rotor arm that has a fixed rotation axis at one end and a flywheel attached to the other end of the rotor via an electric motor, such that the rotation axes of the rotor and the flywheel are parallel and orthogonal to the rotor arm. Initially with the motor switched off, the total angular momentum is zero. When the motor is energised, it spins up the flywheel, but conservation of angular momentum dictates that the rotor arm must rotate in the opposite sense so that the flywheel starts orbiting the fixed axis of the rotor arm. The coupling of the spin and orbital motion in this system, conserves total angular momentum, but the spin and orbital angular momenta are not individually conserved. The coupling between the rotor and the flywheel is due to the electromagnetic field inside the energised motor. In the Kerr metric, the coupling is due to the gravitational field.

An example of gravitational spin-orbit coupling is the Earth, Moon system. Tidal friction is causing the Earth intrinsic spin to gradually slow down. To conserve the total angular momentum of the system, the orbital angular momentum of the Moon has to increase and this is reflected in the gradual increase of the orbital radius of the Moon around the Earth. Here again, spin and orbital angular momentum are not individually conserved in a coupled system.
 
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  • #65
yuiop said:
Why does the coordinate angular velocity of the free falling particle in the equatorial plane, increase if there is no angular acceleration due to gravity?

I think the answer is that there *is* angular acceleration due to gravity, for objects that have nonzero radial velocity. In other words, my earlier claim that the acceleration due to gravity is the same for a static observer as for an object freely falling radially past him, was wrong.

Suppose we have an object which is only moving radially, i.e., its 4-velocity (in Boyer-Lindquist coordinates) only has components ##(u^t, u^r)##. The proper acceleration of such an object is given by

$$
a^b = u^a \nabla_a u^b = u^a \left( \partial_a u^b + \Gamma^b{}_{ac} u^c \right)
$$

Expanding this out, we have

$$
a^b = u^t \left( \partial_t u^b + \Gamma^b{}_{tc} u^c \right) + u^r \left( \partial_r u^b + \Gamma^b{}_{rc} u^c \right)
$$

We are interested in whether the ##b## index can be anything other than ##t## or ##r##. The partial derivative terms can't contribute any terms like that (since ##u^b## only has ##t## and ##r## components), but the connection coefficient terms can--in Kerr spacetime, not Schwarzschild spacetime. In Schwarzschild spacetime, the only connection coefficients with ##tt##, ##tr##, or ##rr## as lower indexes (which is required to match the only nonzero ##u^c## components) have ##t## or ##r## as upper indexes. But in Kerr spacetime, there is at least one that doesn't (assuming that I've done the Maxima inputs correctly): ##\Gamma^{\phi}{}_{tr} = \Gamma^{\phi}{}_{rt}##. This will contribute a nonzero ##a^{\phi}## component, but only if ##u^r## is nonzero. So a static observer will not see any angular acceleration due to gravity, but an observer free-falling radially will.
 
  • #66
According to the following paper, ##\Gamma^{\phi}_{tr}## is non-vanishing: http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu//full/1999MNRAS.308..863S/0000874.000.html (see p.874)

That being said, for a freely falling particle we have ##u^{\gamma}\nabla_{\gamma}u^{\mu} = 0## so that in particular ##\frac{\mathrm{d} ^{2}\phi}{\mathrm{d} \tau^2} = -\Gamma ^{\phi}_{\mu\nu}u^{\mu}u^{\nu}##.

If ##u^{\mu}|_{\tau = 0} = (u^t_0, u^r_0,0,0)## then ##\frac{\mathrm{d} ^{2}\phi}{\mathrm{d} \tau^2}|_{\tau = 0} = -2\Gamma ^{\phi}_{r t}u^{t}_0 u^{r}_0##.

Hence ##\frac{\mathrm{d} ^{2}\phi}{\mathrm{d} \tau^2}|_{\tau = 0} \neq 0## and thus ##\frac{\mathrm{d}^2 \phi}{\mathrm{d} t^2}|_{\tau = 0} = (u^t_0)^{-2}\frac{\mathrm{d} ^{2}\phi}{\mathrm{d} \tau^2}|_{\tau = 0} + u^{\phi}_{0}\frac{\mathrm{d} ^{2}\tau}{\mathrm{d} t^2}|_{\tau = 0} = (u^t_0)^{-2}\frac{\mathrm{d} ^{2}\phi}{\mathrm{d} \tau^2}|_{\tau = 0}\neq 0##.

So even if we have ##\Omega_0 = 0## for a freely falling particle, ##\dot{\Omega}_0 \neq 0## which will start increasing the freely falling particle's angular velocity relative to infinity.

Also, I don't think there's any problem with the acceleration of the freely falling particle as it passes by the origin of the local Lorentz frame of a static observer. If a freely falling particle passes by the origin of the Fermi-Normal coordinates of a static observer, then at that event the static observer will measure the acceleration due to gravity of the freely falling particle to be ##\vec{g} = -\vec{a} - 2\vec{\Omega}\times \vec{v} + 2(\vec{a}\cdot \vec{v})\vec{v}## (see exercise 13.14 in MTW). Here ##\vec{a}## is the static observer's acceleration, ##\vec{v}## is the 3-velocity of the freely falling particle, and ##\vec{\Omega}## is the spin of the static observer's local Lorentz frame; all of these quantities are of course relative to the Fermi-Normal coordinates of the static observer.

So ##\vec{g}## isn't just ##-\vec{a}## (inertial acceleration) but also ##-2\vec{\Omega}\times \vec{v} ## (Coriolis acceleration) and ## 2(\vec{a}\cdot \vec{v})\vec{v}## (relativistic correction to inertial acceleration).

Now as we already know the congruence of static observers in Kerr space-time has a 4-velocity field that's parallel to the time-like killing field ##\xi^{\mu}##, which itself has a non-vanishing twist (vorticity) given by ##\omega^{\mu} = \epsilon^{\mu\nu\alpha\beta}\xi_{\nu}\nabla_{\alpha}\xi_{\beta}##. According to the following paper, the vorticity has non-vanishing radial and polar components in the local Lorentz frame of a given static observer in the congruence: http://arxiv.org/pdf/1210.6127.pdf (see eq.(35) in p.4). Furthermore, according to eq.(2.161) in p.54 of Straumann's GR text, the spin of the static observer's local Lorentz frame is given by ##\Omega^{\mu} = -\frac{1}{2}(\xi^{\gamma}\xi_{\gamma})^{-1}\epsilon^{\mu\nu\alpha\beta}\xi_{\nu}\nabla_{\alpha}\xi_{\beta}##.

So in particular the spin should have a polar component and if we have a freely falling particle pass through the origin of the static observer's local Lorentz frame such that it only has a radial 3-velocity at that instant then the cross product of its radial 3-velocity with the polar component of the spin of the static observer's local Lorentz frame should yield an azimuthal component to the Coriolis acceleration that contributes to ##\vec{g}## at that instant.
 
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  • #67
WannabeNewton said:
According to the following paper, ##\Gamma^{\phi}_{tr}## is non-vanishing: http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu//full/1999MNRAS.308..863S/0000874.000.html (see p.874)

Good, then I did the Maxima inputs right. :cool:

WannabeNewton said:
That being said, for a freely falling particle we have ##u^{\gamma}\nabla_{\gamma}u^{\mu} = 0## so that in particular ##\frac{\mathrm{d} ^{2}\phi}{\mathrm{d} \tau^2} = -\Gamma ^{\phi}_{\mu\nu}u^{\mu}u^{\nu}##.

If ##u^{\mu}|_{\tau = 0} = (u^t_0, u^r_0,0,0)## then ##\frac{\mathrm{d} ^{2}\phi}{\mathrm{d} \tau^2}|_{\tau = 0} = -2\Gamma ^{\phi}_{r t}u^{t}_0 u^{r}_0##.

Hence ##\frac{\mathrm{d} ^{2}\phi}{\mathrm{d} \tau^2}|_{\tau = 0} \neq 0## and thus ##\frac{\mathrm{d}^2 \phi}{\mathrm{d} t^2}|_{\tau = 0} = (u^t_0)^{-2}\frac{\mathrm{d} ^{2}\phi}{\mathrm{d} \tau^2}|_{\tau = 0} + u^{\phi}_{0}\frac{\mathrm{d} ^{2}\tau}{\mathrm{d} t^2}|_{\tau = 0} = (u^t_0)^{-2}\frac{\mathrm{d} ^{2}\phi}{\mathrm{d} \tau^2}|_{\tau = 0}\neq 0##.

So even if we have ##\Omega_0 = 0## for a freely falling particle, ##\dot{\Omega}_0 \neq 0## which will start increasing the freely falling particle's angular velocity relative to infinity.

Yes, but note that you need to have ##u^r_0 \neq 0## in order to have ##\dot{\Omega} \neq 0##. So an object that is released by a static observer in free fall, so that it initially has ##u^r = 0##, will have ##\dot{\Omega} = 0## initially. But as it builds up radial velocity, it will start to have ##\dot{\Omega} \neq 0##.

WannabeNewton said:
So ##\vec{g}## isn't just ##-\vec{a}## (inertial acceleration) but also ##-2\vec{\Omega}\times \vec{v} ## (Coriolis acceleration) and ## 2(\vec{a}\cdot \vec{v})\vec{v}## (relativistic correction to inertial acceleration).

Yes, I agree.
 
  • #68
So I guess then that the black holes text from the google preview linked earlier in the thread forgot to take into account the Coriolis acceleration when calculating the acceleration due to gravity on the freely falling particle in the local Lorentz frame of a static observer? Because it claimed that the acceleration due to gravity on the freely falling particle in such a static frame would just be ##\vec{g} = -\vec{a}## but this would neglect the Coriolis acceleration, and hence the azimuthal component of acceleration due to gravity, on the particle due to the spinning of the static frame and we know that a static frame in Kerr space-time must be spinning due to frame dragging so the Coriolis acceleration can't be eliminated.
 
  • #69
yuiop said:
If there was azimuthal acceleration as well as regular radial acceleration due to gravity, the plumb bob would be accelerated downwards and sideways, so if the plumb bob is used by an observer as a local reference for vertical, he will not detect any azimuthal acceleration. However, I am not sure if that is how a local observer defines vertical and probably by such a definition he would not detect any polar acceleration either. Any thoughts? Just trying to get to the bottom of this puzzle.

Going back a bit to this question. Some time ago I worked out ( with Maxima) the kinematics for a static ( hovering ) frame in Boyer-Lundqvist coordinates.

acceleration has components in the ##r## and ##\theta##-directions. The ##r## term contains ##\cos(\theta)## with values

##a_r = \frac{m\,r-{a}^{2}}{{r}^{2}\,\sqrt{{r}^{2}-2\,m\,r+{a}^{2}}}## with ##\cos(\theta)=0## ( azimuthal) and ##a_r = \frac{m\,\left( r-a\right) \,\left( r+a\right) }{{\left( {r}^{2}+{a}^{2}\right) }^{2}\,\left( {r}^{2}-2\,m\,r+{a}^{2}\right) }## with ##\cos(\theta)=1## ( polar).

In the ##\theta##-direction ##a_\theta = -\frac{{a}^{2}\,\cos\left( \theta\right) \,\sin\left( \theta\right) }{{\left( {a}^{2}\,{\cos\left( \theta\right) }^{2}+{r}^{2}\right) }^{{3}/{2}}}##

If these are correct, the polar and azimuthal bovering frames need only an ##r##-acceleration, but in btween there is also a ##\theta##-acceleration required.

There is vorticity ( spin around the ##r##-axis) of ##-\frac{a\,\sqrt{{r}^{2}-2\,m\,r+{a}^{2}}\,\cos\left( \theta\right) }{{\left( {a}^{2}\,{\cos\left( \theta\right) }^{2}+{r}^{2}\right) }^{{3}/{2}}} ## which is greatest at the pole and falls to zero in the azimuthal plane.
 
  • #70
WannabeNewton said:
So I guess then that the black holes text from the google preview linked earlier in the thread forgot to take into account the Coriolis acceleration when calculating the acceleration due to gravity on the freely falling particle in the local Lorentz frame of a static observer?

I haven't been following this thread at all, but this is really hard to believe. Frolov and Novikov! Is it possible that the book calculates something different?
 
  • #71
Mentz114 said:
There is vorticity ( spin around the ##r##-axis) of ##-\frac{a\,\sqrt{{r}^{2}-2\,m\,r+{a}^{2}}\,\cos\left( \theta\right) }{{\left( {a}^{2}\,{\cos\left( \theta\right) }^{2}+{r}^{2}\right) }^{{3}/{2}}} ## which is greatest at the pole and falls to zero in the azimuthal plane.

This doesn't look right. The vorticity should be around the ##z## axis (or at least there should be a component around that axis--i.e., the axis perpendicular to the ##r-\phi## plane), and it should not be zero in the equatorial (i.e., ##\theta = \pi / 2##) plane.
 
  • #72
I have now read the passage in the book. The book says
Let us look at the forces acting in this frame due to the presence of a rotating black hole.

This means "At all p, compute the relative acceleration between a static observer at p and a momentarily comoving (##\vec{v}=0##) freely falling observer at p."

So, as shown by WannabeNewton and PeterDonis, the book is correct.
 
  • #73
George Jones said:
This means "At all p, compute the relative acceleration between a static observer at p and a momentarily comoving (##\vec{v}=0##) freely falling observer at p."

Ah ok, all is well then :smile:

Merry Christmas!
 
  • #74
PeterDonis said:
This doesn't look right. The vorticity should be around the ##z## axis (or at least there should be a component around that axis--i.e., the axis perpendicular to the ##r-\phi## plane), and it should not be zero in the equatorial (i.e., ##\theta = \pi / 2##) plane.
Agreed. I've checked for gross errors but baffled by this.:frown:. The comoving frame basis I'm using mixes ##t## and ##\phi## so I'm not sure what 'comoving' means here.
 
  • #75
Hope you all had a pleasant Christmas!

It seems that the velocity dependent Coriolis force explanation given by Peter and WBN, resolves the paradoxical issues mentioned earlier. Equations 4.24 and 4.22 of this text gives an expression for the angular velocity ##d\phi/d\tau## (assuming the affine parameter is the proper time of the particle) for a free falling particle, in terms of ##M, \alpha, L, E## and r. All these parameters are constants of motion except for r which can be expressed as a function of proper time ##r(\tau)##. If ##d r(\tau)/d\tau =0## then ##r(\tau)## is a constant then there is no time dependent parameter left in the expression for ##d\phi/d\tau##, so ## d^2 \phi/ d\tau^2## must be zero under those conditions. This agrees with the velocity dependent nature of the 'fictitious' Coriolis force.

Something that is still puzzling me is the section on frame dragging in this Wikipedia article on the Kerr metric.
Qualitatively, frame-dragging can be viewed as the gravitational analog of electromagnetic induction. An "ice skater", in orbit over the equator and rotationally at rest with respect to the stars, extends her arms. The arm extended toward the black hole will be torqued spinward. The arm extended away from the black hole will be torqued anti-spinward. She will therefore be rotationally sped up, in a counter-rotating sense to the black hole. This is the opposite of what happens in everyday experience. If she is already rotating at a certain speed when she extends her arms, inertial effects and frame-dragging effects will balance and her spin will not change. Due to the Principle of Equivalence gravitational effects are locally indistinguishable from inertial effects, so this rotation rate, at which when she extends her arms nothing happens, is her local reference for non-rotation. This frame is rotating with respect to the fixed stars and counter-rotating with respect to the black hole. A useful metaphor is a planetary gear system with the black hole being the sun gear, the ice skater being a planetary gear and the outside universe being the ring gear. This can be also be interpreted through Mach's principle.
Is this qualitative description correct? It says nothing about changing orbital radius so presumably includes perfectly circular orbits. It seems to imply that any orbiting object with a given (possibly constant) orbital velocity and radius, has an associated spin rate and if the object does not have this critical spin rate it will be subjected to a spin torque until the spin reaches the associated critical value.
 
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  • #76
I find that the quoted qualitative description is poorly worded.

To summarize, frame dragging, at the simplest level, can manifest itself in two ways:

In the case of a ZAMO frame, frame dragging causes the ZAMO frame to have a non-zero angular velocity relative to infinity. However the ZAMO frame has no intrinsic spin again because the ZAMO congruence has a 4-velocity field ##\eta^{\mu} = \alpha\nabla^{\mu}t## that has identically vanishing vorticity: ##\eta^{[\gamma}\nabla^{\mu}\eta^{\nu]} = 0##. In other words the ZAMO frame is locally non-rotating: it sets the local standard of non-rotation just like an inertial frame in Minkowski space-time sets the standard of non-rotation. Mutually orthogonal gyroscopes at rest in the ZAMO frame don't precess and hence the ZAMO frame itself doesn't precess relative to asymptotic Minkowski frames since asymptotic Minkowski frames are also locally non-rotating. But the ZAMO frames do, as mentioned, have an orbital angular velocity relative to asymptotic Minkowski frames.

On the other hand, we have for a static frame a manifest intrinsic spin due to frame dragging; this is again because the static congruence has a 4-velocity field ##\xi^{\mu} = \beta (\frac{\partial}{\partial t})^{\mu}## that has non-zero vorticity: ##\xi^{[\gamma}\nabla^{\mu}\xi^{\nu]} \neq 0##. The static frame will obviously not have an orbital angular velocity relative to asymptotic Minkowski frames but it will rotate relative to a local ZAMO frame, that is mutually orthogonal gyroscopes at rest in the static frame will precess and hence the static frame itself will precess relative to asymptotic Minkowski frames.

EDIT: if the relationship between ##\eta^{[\gamma}\nabla^{\mu}\eta^{\nu]} = 0## and a lack of gyroscopic precession isn't clear then see section II.C of the following paper: http://arxiv.org/pdf/1210.6127v4.pdf
 
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  • #77
Mistake in paper ?

I have a query about the paper referred to earlier ( http://arxiv.org/pdf/1210.6127v4.pdf). It has a section on the Kerr metric at the top of the second column on page 4. I think the frame basis and cobasis vectors given are wrong, in that they do not give the ##d\phi^2## term in the metric above. This is easy to see because the contributions to the ##d\phi^2## term come from ##e^\hat{t}## and ##e^\hat{\phi}##, i.e. ##\left( \frac{2\,a\,m\,r\,{\sin\left( \theta\right) }^{2}}{\sqrt{\Sigma}\,\sqrt{\Sigma-2\,m\,r}} \right)^2 + \left(\frac{\sin\left( \theta\right) \,\sqrt{\Delta}\,\sqrt{\Sigma}}{\sqrt{\Sigma-2\,m\,r}} \right)^2 = \frac{{\sin\left( \theta\right) }^{2}\,\left( \Delta\,{\Sigma}^{2}+4\,{a}^{2}\,{m}^{2}\,{r}^{2}\,{\sin\left( \theta\right) }^{2}\right) }{\Sigma\,\left( \Sigma-2\,m\,r\right) }##.

Have I made a mistake, or missed something ?
 
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  • #78
WannabeNewton said:
... The static frame will obviously not have an orbital angular velocity relative to asymptotic Minkowski frames but it will rotate relative to a local ZAMO frame, that is mutually orthogonal gyroscopes at rest in the static frame will precess and hence the static frame itself will precess relative to asymptotic Minkowski frames.
Thanks for the explanation WBN. I am curious if the axis of gyroscopes in the static frame rotates at the same rate as the axis of a gyroscope in the ZAMO frame with equal radius as seen by the very distant observer? To clarify, consider a ZAMO observer that orbits a Kerr BH once per year as viewed by the observer at 'infinity'. The distant observer sees the axis of the ZAMO gyroscope rotate once per year while maintaining a constant angle wrt the instantaneous radial axis of the ZAMO observer. Will the axis of a gyroscope held by a static observer at the same radius also rotate once per year as observed by the distant observer, or is not as simple as that?

Now back to the Wikpedia ice skater...
... An "ice skater", in orbit over the equator and rotationally at rest with respect to the stars, extends her arms. The arm extended toward the black hole will be torqued spinward. The arm extended away from the black hole will be torqued anti-spinward. She will therefore be rotationally sped up, in a counter-rotating sense to the black hole. This is the opposite of what happens in everyday experience. ..
I think I 'get' this now. While the orbiting ice skater is at rest wrt the distant stars, she does not have zero angular momentum. When she extends her arms, conservation of angular momentum requires that her spin angular velocity slows down, but to the distant observer, this looks like an increase in spin angular velocity relative to the distant stars. In fact, this idea provides a practical alternative to a gyroscope to determine angular spin momentum (or lack of). If extending your arms causes no change in your angular spin velocity, then you have no spin momentum (around your vertical axis), even if you appear to be rotating relative to the distant stars or relative to a radial vector pointing at the gravitational source or whatever other reference point you choose.
 
  • #79
yuiop said:
Will the axis of a gyroscope held by a static observer at the same radius also rotate once per year as observed by the distant observer, or is not as simple as that?

I hope I'm understanding your use of the term "rotation" correctly here in that "rotation of the ZAMO gyroscope" refers to the orbital rotation of the gyroscope around the central Kerr BH relative to infinity, since it has no spin rotation (as you noted its angle is constant wrt the instantaneous spatial axes of a ZAMO frame), whereas "rotation of the static gyroscope" refers to the spin rotation of the gyroscope relative to infinity.

If so, it isn't as simple as what you stated but it can still be described mathematically at the surface level. Consider the entire family of static observers in Kerr space-time; the congruence of worldlines of these observers has, as noted earlier, the 4-velocity field ##\xi^{\mu} = \frac{1}{\sqrt{-g_{tt}}}\delta^{\mu}_{t} = \gamma \delta^{\mu}_t##.

Consider an observer ##O## in this family. We attach to ##O## a frame, which, by definition, is a choice of orthonormal basis wherein the time-like basis vector is simply the 4-velocity of ##O##. The particular frame we attach to ##O## is given by ##\{\xi^{\mu}, \eta^{\mu}_1, \eta^{\mu}_2, \eta^{\mu}_3 \}## where ##\eta^{\mu}_{i}## are spatial basis vectors setup in a special way: ##O## has three infinitesimally neighboring static observers separated from him along the directions ##\eta^{\mu}_1,\eta^{\mu}_2,\eta^{\mu}_3## of this frame and each of ##\eta^{\mu}_1,\eta^{\mu}_2,\eta^{\mu}_3## points from him to the respective neighbors. In order to force the ##\eta^{\mu}_{i}## to remain locked to the respective neighbors everywhere along his worldline, ##O## uses what's called Lie transport: ##\mathcal{L}_{\xi}\eta^{\mu}_{i} = \xi^{\gamma}\nabla_{\gamma}\eta^{\mu}_{i} - \eta^{\gamma}_{i}\nabla_{\gamma}\xi^{\mu} = 0##. We have thus defined a frame for ##O##; let's call this a static frame.

*Of course there's a physical reasoning behind this choice of frame and it relates to the way in which we aim to measure the rotation of the frame. Imagine we are in flat space-time and we have a rotating disk. Two superimposed observers ##O## and ##O'## sit at the center of the disk; ##O## belongs to a family of observers, the rest of whom are situated at all other points on the disk. Imagine that relative to ##O'## all these other observers have instantaneous tangential velocities ##\vec{v} = \vec{\omega}\times \vec{r}## where ##\vec{\omega}## is the angular velocity of the disk and ##\vec{r}## the position vector to a given observer, whereas relative to ##O## all these other observers are stationary on the disk. Then clearly ##O## is spinning in place relative to ##O'##.

Now if we attach to ##O## the frame ##\{\xi^{\mu}, \eta^{\mu}_1, \eta^{\mu}_2, \eta^{\mu}_3 \}## from above then the Lie transport condition ##\mathcal{L}_{\xi}\eta^{\mu}_{i} = 0## that locked the spatial basis vectors to neighboring observers is the exact same thing as having the observers sitting at all other points on the disk remain stationary relative to ##O##. On the other hand ##O'## has an inertial frame attached to him given by some ##\{e^{\mu}_0, e^{\mu}_1,e^{\mu}_2,e^{\mu}_3 \}## and because this is an inertial frame, the ##e^{\mu}_{i}## are physically realized by torque-free gyroscopes. In other words this frame constitutes what we call a non-rotating frame. Above we said that the observers sitting at all other points on the disk have tangential velocities relative to ##O'##; this is exactly the same thing as saying that the spatial basis vectors ##\eta^{\mu}_{i}## of ##O##'s frame rotate relative to the gyroscopes ##e^{\mu}_{i}##. This measures the rotation of ##O##'s frame relative to the non-rotating frame of ##O'## by means of torque-free gyroscopes.*

Coming back to the congruence of static observers in Kerr space-time, we measure the rotation of a static frame almost identically to what was described above. The main difference now is that we must work with locally non-rotating frames so we superimpose a locally non-rotating observer on our chosen static observer ##O## (meaning they share the same worldline) and the rotation of the static frame attached to ##O## (more precisely, the rotation of the ##\eta^{\mu}_{i}##) is, at each event, measured relative to the torque-free gyroscopes of the locally non-rotating frame attached to the locally non-rotating observer superimposed on ##O##. We define the vorticity 4-vector ##\omega^{\mu} = \epsilon^{\mu\nu\alpha\beta}\xi_{\nu}\nabla_{\alpha}\xi_{\beta}## as the rotation of the ##\eta^{\mu}_{i}## (and hence of the static frame). This is just a relativistic generalization of the vorticity 3-vector from fluid mechanics. It's magnitude is simply ##\omega = \sqrt{\omega^{\mu}\omega_{\mu}}## and the units of ##\omega## are ##[\omega] = \frac{1}{s}##.

The periodicity of ##\omega## is with respect to a clock carried by a locally non-rotating observer sharing the same worldline as our static observer ##O## so in order to get ##\omega_{\infty}## we simply tack on the "gamma factor" ##\gamma = \frac{dt}{d\tau}## where ##d\tau## is the proper time along the shared worldline of ##O## and a locally non-rotating observer. Doing this we get ##\omega_{\infty} = \gamma^{-1}\omega##.

Letting ##\Omega## be the angular velocity of a ZAMO observer about the central Kerr BH, we can then compute ##\frac{\omega_{\infty}}{\Omega}## in order to compare the two rotation rates. I haven't explicitly done the calculation yet but just looking at the form of ##\omega^{\mu}## from the paper I linked earlier, a priori I can't see any reason why we would get ##\frac{\omega_{\infty}}{\Omega} = 1##.

Sorry for the incredibly long post but I just wanted to describe, once and for all, what we are really measuring when it comes to the rotation of static frames.
 
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  • #80
WannabeNewton said:
Letting ##\Omega## be the angular velocity of a ZAMO observer about the central Kerr BH, we can then compute ##\frac{\omega_{\infty}}{\Omega}## in order to compare the two rotation rates. I haven't explicitly done the calculation yet but just looking at the form of ##\omega^{\mu}## from the paper I linked earlier, a priori I can't see any reason why we would get ##\frac{\omega_{\infty}}{\Omega} = 1##.

If ##\Omega## is also measured at infinity (i.e., using time at infinity), then you will have ##\omega_{\infty} / \Omega_{\infty} = 1##. Think of the distant observer looking down on a static observer directly below him (radially), and a family of ZAMOs all at the same radius as the static observer (this is all in the "equatorial plane" so the family of ZAMOs occupies the "orbital ring" in the equatorial plane at that radius). At some time ##t = 0## the distant observer marks which ZAMO is just passing the static observer; he chooses the time so that the static observer's gyroscope also points directly at him at the same instant. Then he waits until the same ZAMO comes around to pass the static observer again.

Observe, first, that the ZAMO's gyroscope must also be pointing directly at the distant observer at ##t = 0##. (That has to be the case because the ZAMO's gyroscope always points directly radially outward.) Observe next that the ZAMO's gyroscope and the static observer's gyroscope will always be parallel (because they must both be rotating, relative to infinity, at the same rate, since they are at the same radius). That means the static observer's gyro will once again point at the distant observer (i.e., will have completed one rotation) at the same time the ZAMO's does; but that will be precisely when the ZAMO passes the static observer again, as seen by the observer at infinity.

The part that may be counterintuitive is that the static observer and the ZAMO do *not* measure the same angular velocity of rotation; ##\Omega## as measured by the ZAMO (by watching successive passages overhead of an object at infinity) is *not* the same as ##\omega## as measured by the static observer (by the method you describe). That's because they are in relative motion, so their respective ##\gamma## factors relative to infinity are not the same.
 
  • #81
PeterDonis said:
(because they must both be rotating, relative to infinity, at the same rate, since they are at the same radius)

I don't understand why the two rotation rates relative to infinity must be the same, even if the ZAMO and the static observer are at the same radius. Wouldn't that require ##\omega_{\infty} = \Omega_{\infty}##? We have ##\Omega_{\infty} = \frac{2Mar}{(r^2 + a^2)^2 - \Delta a^2 sin^2\theta}##. As for ##\omega_{\infty} = \gamma^{-1}\sqrt{\omega^{\mu}\omega_{\mu}}## we have to compute the vorticity ##\omega^{\mu}## of the congruence of static observers with 4-velocity field ##\xi^{\mu} =\gamma\delta^{\mu}_{t}##. If the expressions for ##\omega^{\mu}## in the following paper are correct, then I don't see why ##\omega_{\infty} = \Omega_{\infty}## would have to hold just by inspection (I'm not saying it won't but I feel like crying just at the sight of the computation that would be required to verify this :-p): http://arxiv.org/pdf/1210.6127v4.pdf (p.4)
 
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  • #82
WannabeNewton said:
Wouldn't that require ##\omega_{\infty} = \Omega_{\infty}##?

Yes; but I haven't actually done the computation, I just gave a physical argument that seems convincing to me. I don't relish the computation either. :redface:
 
  • #83
PeterDonis said:
Yes; but I haven't actually done the computation, I just gave a physical argument that seems convincing to me. I don't relish the computation either. :redface:

Sorry, I think I'm not understanding the physical argument well enough then. Could you explain again why ##\omega_{\infty} = \Omega_{\infty}## should hold physically, at least when restricted to a single radius?
 
  • #84
WannabeNewton said:
Sorry, I think I'm not understanding the physical argument well enough then. Could you explain again why ##\omega_{\infty} = \Omega_{\infty}## should hold physically, at least when restricted to a single radius?
I am beginning to suspect that ##\omega_{\infty} \ne \Omega_{\infty}## by considering what happens in the Schwarzschild case due to geodetic and/or the Lense-Thirring precession. In the Schwarzschild metric a non orbiting gyroscope at constant altitude continues to point at a given distant star indefinitely, while an orbiting gyroscope does not, or at least that is what the Gravity probe B experiment is claimed to demonstrate. It seems clear that in the Schwarzschild metric, the equivalent of ##\omega_{\infty} = \Omega_{\infty}## does not hold, so there in strong reason to think it should automatically hold in the Kerr metric. In fact the Lense-Thirring effect is the precession of an orbiting gyroscope caused by the rotation of the gravitational body, so the equations for that should be directly relevant to the Kerr metric.
 
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  • #85
yuiop said:
I am beginning to suspect that ##\omega_{\infty} \ne \Omega_{\infty}## by considering what happens in the Schwarzschild case

Unless I'm misunderstanding the terminology, ##\omega## and ##\Omega## are both zero in Schwarzschild spacetime. A ZAMO in Schwarzschild spacetime has zero angular velocity relative to infinity, so ZAMO = static observer, and a static observer's vorticity is zero (more precisely, the vorticity of the static congruence is zero), so his gyroscopes stay pointing in the same direction relative to infinity; they don't precess. The only reason the question arises at all in Kerr spacetime is that a ZAMO is *not* the same as a static observer at finite ##r##.

yuiop said:
due to geodetic and/or the Lense-Thirring precession.

These are only nonzero for objects with nonzero angular velocity in Schwarzschild spacetime, which, as above, are neither static (of course) nor ZAMOs (since ZAMOs are static, as above).
 
  • #86
WannabeNewton said:
Could you explain again why ##\omega_{\infty} = \Omega_{\infty}## should hold physically, at least when restricted to a single radius?

The simplest way to put it is that, given a ZAMO and a static observer at the same ##r##, viewed from infinity:

(1) The ZAMO's gyroscope rotates with the same angular velocity as the ZAMO himself revolves around the hole (because the ZAMO's gyroscope always points directly radially outward);

(2) The static observer's gyroscope rotates with the same angular velocity as the ZAMO's gyroscope (because they are both gyroscopes at the same radius and therefore subject to the same "frame dragging" effect).

(3) #1 and #2 together imply that the static observer's gyroscope rotates (which is what I understand ##\omega_{\infty}## to mean) with the same angular velocity as the ZAMO revolves around the hole (which is what I understand ##\Omega_{\infty}## to mean).
 
  • #87
PeterDonis said:
(1) The ZAMO's gyroscope rotates with the same angular velocity as the ZAMO himself revolves around the hole (because the ZAMO's gyroscope always points directly radially outward);

Gyroscopic rotation in the above context refers to the orbital rotation of the gyroscope around the BH correct? If so then I agree.

PeterDonis said:
(2) The static observer's gyroscope rotates with the same angular velocity as the ZAMO's gyroscope (because they are both gyroscopes at the same radius and therefore subject to the same "frame dragging" effect).

Given a static observer ##O## in the congruence of static observers in Kerr space-time, ##\omega = \sqrt{\omega^{\mu}\omega_{\mu}}## represents the rotation of a set of spatial basis vectors Lie transported along the worldline of ##O##, meaning they are locked to neighboring static observers, relative to a set of spatial basis vectors Fermi-Walker transported along the worldline of ##O##, which can be physically realized as torque-free gyroscopes carried by a locally non-rotating observer sharing the same worldline as ##O##. By inserting ##\gamma## appropriately we get ##\omega_{\infty}##. I apologize if I explained that poorly before. So when we say "the static observer's gyroscopes" are we referring to the Lie transported spatial basis vectors (which precess relative to infinity) or colocated Fermi-Walker transported spatial basis vectors?
 
  • #88
WannabeNewton said:
Gyroscopic rotation in the above context refers to the orbital rotation of the gyroscope around the BH correct?

Strictly speaking, it refers to the rotation of the direction the gyroscope is pointing, relative to infinity. That is the same as the rate of orbital rotation about the hole for a ZAMO, so in that particular case, yes, it refers to the rate of orbital rotation as well. But for a non-ZAMO observer the two are not the same.

WannabeNewton said:
Given a static observer ##O## in the congruence of static observers in Kerr space-time, ##\omega = \sqrt{\omega^{\mu}\omega_{\mu}}## represents the rotation of a set of spatial basis vectors Lie transported along the worldline of ##O##, meaning they are locked to neighboring static observers, relative to a set of spatial basis vectors Fermi-Walker transported along the worldline of ##O##, which can be physically realized as torque-free gyroscopes carried by a locally non-rotating observer sharing the same worldline as ##O##. By inserting ##\gamma## appropriately we get ##\omega_{\infty}##.

Ok, then it may just be a matter of signs; ##\omega_{\infty}## as you've defined it is a *backwards* rotation (i.e., in the opposite sense to the rotation of the hole), because it's the rotation of the Lie transported basis vectors (which always point in the same direction relative to infinity) relative to the Fermi-Walker transported basis vectors (whose direction relative to infinity rotates, in the same sense as the hole rotates). I was thinking of ##\omega_{\infty}## as the angular velocity relative to infinity of the gyroscopes carried by the static observers, which has the same magnitude, but opposite sign, to the ##\omega_{\infty}## that you've defined. We're really concerned here with the magnitude, not the sign, so I don't think it really matters which definition we adopt.

WannabeNewton said:
So when we say "the static observer's gyroscopes" are we referring to the Lie transported spatial basis vectors (which precess relative to infinity) or colocated Fermi-Walker transported spatial basis vectors?

The latter; see above.
 
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  • #89
Ah ok, I see now; I was confusing the two. Thanks!
 
  • #90
PeterDonis said:
(2) The static observer's gyroscope rotates with the same angular velocity as the ZAMO's gyroscope (because they are both gyroscopes at the same radius and therefore subject to the same "frame dragging" effect).

Well, it appears that this, however intuitively plausible it seemed, was wrong. :redface: When I compute the vorticity for the static congruence, I get

$$
\omega = \frac{M a}{r^3 \left( 1 - 2M / r \right)}
$$

which agrees with the result given in this paper (the one WBN linked to in an earlier post). This gives (in the equatorial plane)

$$
\omega_{\infty} = \gamma^{-1} \omega = \frac{M a}{r^3 \sqrt{1 - 2M / r}}
$$

We have ##\Omega_{\infty} = - g_{t \phi} / g_{\phi \phi}##, which gives (in the equatorial plane, and neglecting signs since we're only concerned with the magnitudes)

$$
\Omega_{\infty} = \frac{2 M a}{r \left( r^2 + a^2 \right)}
$$

Clearly these are not the same; in fact we can take their ratio easily:

$$
\frac{\omega_{\infty}}{\Omega_{\infty}} = \frac{r^2 + a^2}{2 r^2 \sqrt{1 - 2M / r}} = \frac{1}{2} \left( 1 + \frac{a^2}{r^2} \right) \sqrt{\frac{r}{r - 2M}}
$$

This goes to 1/2 (from above) for large ##r##, and there will be *some* ##r## where it becomes 1; it grows without bound as ##r \rightarrow 2M##. This is even more counterintuitive than the fact that they're not the same: it's saying that, as ##r## decreases, there comes a point where gyroscopes carried by static observers are rotating, relative to infinity, *faster* than gyroscopes carried by ZAMOs (which equates to rotating faster than the ZAMOs themselves are orbiting around the hole).

I think what is actually going on here is geodetic precession, which means I was also too quick to dismiss yuiop's earlier comment about that :redface: (sorry yuiop!). If we think of geodetic precession as acting on the angular momentum of an object, then of course a static observer in Kerr spacetime will see a nonzero precession, even though a static observer in Schwarzschild spacetime does not.
 
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