Protons and Positive Hydrogen Ions

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the nature of positive hydrogen ions (H+) in solution, particularly in relation to protons and their behavior in aqueous environments. Participants explore concepts from chemistry and physics, including charge density, bonding, and the identity of hydrogen ions in solution.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants argue that a positive hydrogen ion in solution is not merely a proton, citing its high charge density due to a small ionic radius.
  • Others assert that H+ is effectively represented as H3O+, questioning whether this distinction clarifies the concept.
  • One participant claims that protons can bond, suggesting that H+ ions can form bonds in certain conditions.
  • Another participant reiterates the idea that a proton and a hydrogen atom with its electron displaced are fundamentally the same entity.
  • There is mention of hydrogen ions preferentially bonding with water molecules, leading to the formation of hydroxonium ions, though some express skepticism about this terminology.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the identity and behavior of hydrogen ions in solution, with no consensus reached on whether H+ should be considered equivalent to a proton or if it possesses distinct properties when in solution.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights the complexity of defining hydrogen ions in chemical contexts, including assumptions about bonding and the role of water in their behavior. There are unresolved questions regarding the implications of charge density and the nature of hydrogen ions.

McHeathen
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Someone once said that a positive hydrogen ion in a solution is not just a proton. When queried he replied by explaining that a positive hydrogen ion in solution will have a relatively high charge density because of the small ionic radius.

I can't see any difference: a proton and a positive hydrogen ion must be one and the same thing. Unless of course the positive hydrogen ion acquires some special quality while being in solution?
 
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I have seen descriptions which indicate that H+ is really H3O+. I am not sure whether this explains anything.
 
Yes that's right. When H+ is potent, they themselves bond into that. Shows that a proton can bond.
 
McHeathen said:
Someone once said that a positive hydrogen ion in a solution is not just a proton. When queried he replied by explaining that a positive hydrogen ion in solution will have a relatively high charge density because of the small ionic radius.

I can't see any difference: a proton and a positive hydrogen ion must be one and the same thing. Unless of course the positive hydrogen ion acquires some special quality while being in solution?

a proton and a hydrogen atom with it's electron displaced an infinite distance away are both the same thing.
 
quetz, you're talking in the region of plasma and particle physics.

In chemistry, hydrogen ions don't tend to exist on their own but preferentially bond to water molecules (assuming that's what's producing them). I've heard this called a 'hydroxonium ion' but sounds like mumbo-jumbo to me. This ion delivers the proton to what we consider H+ + (something else) reactions.
 

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